1804 replies to this topic

[ny hunter]

Doc is right this is never going to get answered.Me I don't care what the next guy uses to hunt. Not my bussiness as long as he is safe.

[Campwildwood]

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Yes to all of the above. They are all hand drawn, hand held, BOWS that require all of the same form and mental disciplines and consistancies in order to be successfully and accurately shot. None of which applies to a crossbow. But then that is pretty obvious isn't it?

Actually, I already made that same point earlier in this very thread, but thank you for giving the opportunity to repeat it (again!). It is an important point that refutes the constant distortions when it comes to compounds and those people using them as a bogus precedent to jam crossbows into bow seasons.

A lot of people before us warned of this happening back when the compound acceptance arguments first took place. Who would have guessed it ......... it turns out they were right...lol. I wonder what kinds of things people of the future will try to cram into the bow season using crossbows as a precedent.  But then you don't really care about that do you?

Doc

So lets focus on the gadgets available for "bows". When will "bowhunters" start placing limits on what is/isn't proper add-on's to their bows and still feel their "bow" is no better than a xbow? Verticle bows have the same advantages as xbows (ie: triggers, scopes, string locking mechanisms, etc.)

You don't seem to care what products enhance the compound bow, nor does the NYB. So why care if xbow are allowed, especially since both "now" share the same attributes? The argument concerning xbows is based solely on semantics.

This debate may be pointless since xbows are gaining popularity among bowhunters, many of who are coming to their senses that their own beloved compounds are just as technically advanced as the xbow. Initial posts indicate xbows are now legal in gun season and I believe they will soon enough be legal in archery season. I and many other hunters (new and old) will now enjoy the option of another legal implement to hunt with. Thats what I care about, not the semantics, I'll leave that up to you....lol.

[ny hunter]

HERE HERE. Very nice.

[sits in trees]

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Yes to all of the above. They are all hand drawn, hand held, BOWS that require all of the same form and mental disciplines and consistancies in order to be successfully and accurately shot. None of which applies to a crossbow. But then that is pretty obvious isn't it?

Actually, I already made that same point earlier in this very thread, but thank you for giving the opportunity to repeat it (again!). It is an important point that refutes the constant distortions when it comes to compounds and those people using them as a bogus precedent to jam crossbows into bow seasons.

A lot of people before us warned of this happening back when the compound acceptance arguments first took place. Who would have guessed it ......... it turns out they were right...lol. I wonder what kinds of things people of the future will try to cram into the bow season using crossbows as a precedent.  But then you don't really care about that do you?

Doc

i'm personally working on a crossbow design with 70 inch titanium limbs which can be pulled behind a pickup truck and placed on a mountain top which will group 4 inchs at 750 yds, i discussed the concept with some of the major crossbow manufactures like the PSE prez and he was all ears ;D  Once again, again, again, again DOC, ballistically or in any other way crossbows have no advantage over vertical bows in the hunting woods. lets play a game, you name an advantage a crossbow has over a vert bow and i mention a disadvantage..it's an old game but i'm willing

[sits in trees]

more and more the truth is coming out and people are seeing whats really behind this huge anti crossbows in archery season thing. it has nothing to do with advantages, diadvantages, or wether a weapon can be shouldered or hand held, or you can shoot it with you feet or behind your back with mirrors, cocked, uncocked, thats all nonsense and most people who can reason see that.
it's all about the remote possibility that allowing crossbows in archery will bring "more hunters into the woods during bow season", thats the plain truth!!
yes when you tell an anti crossbow person that allowing crossbows into archery season will increase hunter participation in NY the first thig they say is "no it won't".
when you tell them the woods will not be over run with hunters if we allow crossbows into archery season  then the usual response is it will bring "hordes of undesirables into bow season".
if you tell them it will help to reduce a bulging deer herd in NY they tell you "no it wont".
if you tell them it won't effect deer numbers they tell you yes it will???
actually lately the only thing i've been hearing from the NY bowhunters leadership is CROSSBOWS don't belong in ARCERY season period, and thats because they have run out of reasons people will actually listen to....
 

[sits in trees]

you now just stepping back for a minute here. i'm a NY archery hunter and have been for decades, i hunt my own property and i hunt nearby state land. these are my observations. when i pull my truck up to state land during bow season, it's a rare thing to see more than one or 2 other bowhunters in the woods or parked on the road for an area that incompasses 20 thousand acres or so??
as a matter or fact the number of other bowhunters i see during bow season can be pretty much counted on 2 hands and i have hunted 4 counties here in the hudson valley over the years.
we all know whats happening with hunter numbers in our state and we all know what the anti bowhunting groups out there wanna do to us, right? i think it's time for anyone who calls themselves a hunter and on the other hand says no crossbows in my woods better wake up already

[WNYBuckHunter]

The funny thing is, the legislators have already said it, by the number of responses to the issue that they receive, the overwhelming majority are in favor of corssbows. All these guys that keep saying no, are going to be severely disappointed WHEN (not if) crossbows become legal in NY. Face it guys, you will have the same choice as everyone else, to use a crossbow or not. I find it pretty funny that the same guys that oppose crossbows because of a perceived advantage dont say anything in opposition to rifles vs shotguns, where there is an absolute advantage.

[Larry]

the only advantage i can see is it may be a more stable platfrom then a bow

[Chevy]

I don't think crossguns will ever become legal during archery season. Legislators and the DEC have figured out that we have separate seasons for a reason and the crossgun is just being used as an impliment for the gun hunter to shift over into archery season. 

[SteveB]

I am sure when the crossgun is invented, they will take a look at it and decide what season to put it in. Until then, it is simply speculation. I imagine it will be powered by gunpowder like all guns are.

[Doc]

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Yes to all of the above. They are all hand drawn, hand held, BOWS that require all of the same form and mental disciplines and consistancies in order to be successfully and accurately shot. None of which applies to a crossbow. But then that is pretty obvious isn't it?

Actually, I already made that same point earlier in this very thread, but thank you for giving the opportunity to repeat it (again!). It is an important point that refutes the constant distortions when it comes to compounds and those people using them as a bogus precedent to jam crossbows into bow seasons.

A lot of people before us warned of this happening back when the compound acceptance arguments first took place. Who would have guessed it ......... it turns out they were right...lol. I wonder what kinds of things people of the future will try to cram into the bow season using crossbows as a precedent.  But then you don't really care about that do you?

Doc

So lets focus on the gadgets available for "bows". When will "bowhunters" start placing limits on what is/isn't proper add-on's to their bows and still feel their "bow" is no better than a xbow? Verticle bows have the same advantages as xbows (ie: triggers, scopes, string locking mechanisms, etc.)

You don't seem to care what products enhance the compound bow, nor does the NYB. So why care if xbow are allowed, especially since both "now" share the same attributes? The argument concerning xbows is based solely on semantics.

You bet. When I look at some of the accessories and crazy stuff we bowhunters have hung on our bows, it's obvious that we have just about given up on the idea of controlling the crazy techno-craze that has taken place. Who could ever have imagined back in the 70's when the ugly, relatively slow Allen Compound was introduced just what was to come? No wonder the attitudes toward archery have taken a "who cares" turn. And now we have a whole new platform to accelerate those technical advances. Imagine the things that can be done with a  stock to work off of. All ready I have seen video of a prototype of a functioning repeating cross bow. Also, now I have seen a crossbow that has the bow mounted backwards with a few extra pulleys mounted. What that does for them I'm not sure, but I'm sure there is some tecnical advantage that someone found. And we haven't even reached the stage where the crossbow manufacturers are raking the maximum amount of R&D money yet. But that will come and technical advances that we can't even imagine yet will follow just as surely as they did with the compound.  So yes, I do worry about the whole idea of changing and re-identifying legal archery equipment both past, present, and future. And I would think that anyone who values archery as a unique sport would be equally concerned, especially since it is obvious that we are on the cusp of a whole new round of such advances at a level of acceleratiion that we can't yet imagine.

We really shouldn't be surprised that the muzzleloaders are starting to try to lay claim to portions of our seasons. We no longer define ourselves as a hunting sport of skill and limitations, and now we are taking another giant step in the direction of moving archery toward the guns. Furthermore, I think the crossbow will accelerate this attitude and soften opposition to muzzleloaders moving into what has traditionally been archery seasons by stirring in a majority that no longer has any real ties to the bow.

Doc

[ny hunter]

I just don't see what the big deal is.Maybe crossbow well get us another week to the season?Look at the positive not the negative.I for one see no negative in this.Thats just me.

[Larry]

     Hey Chevy I cannot fine the definition of the word CROSS – GUN anywhere. I did find the definition of a Cross -  Bow. This definition is out of the Webster’s Dictionary & Thesaurus copy rite 1999.  Cross – Bow: A weapon consisting chiefly of a bow mounted crosswise near the end of a wooden stock.
Whether you agree or not with the cross- bow issue you should still call it a cross – bow and not just spout off the NYBH line of propaganda. Someone who doesn’t know anything about this issue wouldn’t know what you are talking about.

[sits in trees]

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Yes to all of the above. They are all hand drawn, hand held, BOWS that require all of the same form and mental disciplines and consistancies in order to be successfully and accurately shot. None of which applies to a crossbow. But then that is pretty obvious isn't it?

Actually, I already made that same point earlier in this very thread, but thank you for giving the opportunity to repeat it (again!). It is an important point that refutes the constant distortions when it comes to compounds and those people using them as a bogus precedent to jam crossbows into bow seasons.

A lot of people before us warned of this happening back when the compound acceptance arguments first took place. Who would have guessed it ......... it turns out they were right...lol. I wonder what kinds of things people of the future will try to cram into the bow season using crossbows as a precedent.  But then you don't really care about that do you?

Doc

So lets focus on the gadgets available for "bows". When will "bowhunters" start placing limits on what is/isn't proper add-on's to their bows and still feel their "bow" is no better than a xbow? Verticle bows have the same advantages as xbows (ie: triggers, scopes, string locking mechanisms, etc.)

You don't seem to care what products enhance the compound bow, nor does the NYB. So why care if xbow are allowed, especially since both "now" share the same attributes? The argument concerning xbows is based solely on semantics.

You bet. When I look at some of the accessories and crazy stuff we bowhunters have hung on our bows, it's obvious that we have just about given up on the idea of controlling the crazy techno-craze that has taken place. Who could ever have imagined back in the 70's when the ugly, relatively slow Allen Compound was introduced just what was to come? No wonder the attitudes toward archery have taken a "who cares" turn. And now we have a whole new platform to accelerate those technical advances. Imagine the things that can be done with a  stock to work off of. All ready I have seen video of a prototype of a functioning repeating cross bow. Also, now I have seen a crossbow that has the bow mounted backwards with a few extra pulleys mounted. What that does for them I'm not sure, but I'm sure there is some tecnical advantage that someone found. And we haven't even reached the stage where the crossbow manufacturers are raking the maximum amount of R&D money yet. But that will come and technical advances that we can't even imagine yet will follow just as surely as they did with the compound.  So yes, I do worry about the whole idea of changing and re-identifying legal archery equipment both past, present, and future. And I would think that anyone who values archery as a unique sport would be equally concerned, especially since it is obvious that we are on the cusp of a whole new round of such advances at a level of acceleratiion that we can't yet imagine.

We really shouldn't be surprised that the muzzleloaders are starting to try to lay claim to portions of our seasons. We no longer define ourselves as a hunting sport of skill and limitations, and now we are taking another giant step in the direction of moving archery toward the guns. Furthermore, I think the crossbow will accelerate this attitude and soften opposition to muzzleloaders moving into what has traditionally been archery seasons by stirring in a majority that no longer has any real ties to the bow.

Doc

the repeater crossbow is just a joke invented by a guy(none hunter) who was looking for nothing more than a laugh, never intended for hunting use, and it couldnt be used for hunting do to laws that are already in place, and besides the thing runs on an electric motor that humms clicks and clacks the whole time it's in operation, i've seen it and would welcome anyone to use one in pursuit of deer so i could get a huge belly laugh!!
OK Doc on a more realistic note the other crossbows that you mention with backward limbs and all those extra scary pulleys do absolutley nothing as far as FPS, those features are for nothing more than reducing the bows overall width and in most cases they are slower (FPS) than traditional crossbows.
to sit there and scare yourself with these boogie men crossbow fairytails which are not based on any type of fact is a waste of time, i suggest that efforts made in scaring one self should be directed at the real enemy out there, the people who are working very hard with lots of money who wanna make your hunting season no existant...

[Chevy]

Larry, then stop calling a crossbow bolt an arrow. Crossguns shoot bolts not arrows.

[Doc]

Actually, I never said that the repeating crossbow was on the market and I did call it a prototype. Of course once again you missed the whole point of the examples as showing that crossbow technology is still in its infancy with huge potential and as the market acceptance grows, the technological growth will make the compound advances look primitive. And as a matter of fact, I saw the video and that repeating unit worked very good and showed the future capabilities of having the frame of a stock to work off of.

As far as the reversed crossbow, I don't know anything about your contention that it was done only to make it narrower. or even the contention that it is slower because of the design. And I certainly believe that it demonstrates the fact that all limits formerly applying to bows are now put on hold with that stock available to build on.

By the way, I read through the new NYS crossbow legislation (this is the state that I am concerned about) and didn't find any restrictions on repeater designs. In fact there are very few design limitations at all.

I understand that not everyone sees potential when they witness it, but take my word for it, that repeater shows one thing very clearly: that stock offers a whole new set of opportunities for all kinds of mechanisms and other speed increasing features. The reversed crossbow also shows that there are all kinds of physical boundaries in an actual bow that get erased when you include a stock.

However, if you find it inconvenient to acknowledge the potential and the fact that crossbow manufacturers are working diligently to make some of these things and more to become reality that's ok. I understand. But I would then also suggest that you also have to deny the wild advancements that the compound historically took since the introduction and acceptance of the Allen compound bow. And if you think that the crossbow does not provide a whole new platform of developments that are not available to bows, then you really are short-sighted. But then again, like I said before, you really don't care about that stuff anyway ..... right?

Doc

[Doc]

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    Hey Chevy I cannot fine the definition of the word CROSS – GUN anywhere. I did find the definition of a Cross -  Bow. This definition is out of the Webster’s Dictionary & Thesaurus copy rite 1999.  Cross – Bow: A weapon consisting chiefly of a bow mounted crosswise near the end of a wooden stock.
Whether you agree or not with the cross- bow issue you should still call it a cross – bow and not just spout off the NYBH line of propaganda. Someone who doesn’t know anything about this issue wouldn’t know what you are talking about.

Yeah ....... That's what he said ....... a cross-gun ...... lol.

look, he can call it what ever he wants to. You understood what he was talking about .... right?

Doc

[sits in trees]

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Actually, I never said that the repeating crossbow was on the market and I did call it a prototype. Of course once again you missed the whole point of the examples as showing that crossbow technology is still in its infancy with huge potential and as the market acceptance grows, the technological growth will make the compound advances look primitive. And as a matter of fact, I saw the video and that repeating unit worked very good and showed the future capabilities of having the frame of a stock to work off of.

As far as the reversed crossbow, I don't know anything about your contention that it was done only to make it narrower. or even the contention that it is slower because of the design. And I certainly believe that it demonstrates the fact that all limits formerly applying to bows are now put on hold with that stock available to build on.

By the way, I read through the new NYS crossbow legislation (this is the state that I am concerned about) and didn't find any restrictions on repeater designs. In fact there are very few design limitations at all.

I understand that not everyone sees potential when they witness it, but take my word for it, that repeater shows one thing very clearly: that stock offers a whole new set of opportunities for all kinds of mechanisms and other speed increasing features. The reversed crossbow also shows that there are all kinds of physical boundaries in an actual bow that get erased when you include a stock.

However, if you find it inconvenient to acknowledge the potential and the fact that crossbow manufacturers are working diligently to make some of these things and more to become reality that's ok. I understand. But I would then also suggest that you also have to deny the wild advancements that the compound historically took since the introduction and acceptance of the Allen compound bow. And if you think that the crossbow does not provide a whole new platform of developments that are not available to bows, then you really are short-sighted. But then again, like I said before, you really don't care about that stuff anyway ..... right?

Doc

hey Doc the crossbow was invented in the 70s, only 40 years ago and has in no way reached the end of the tracks as far as technology or performance, if that were the case we would still be driving Studebakers and flying cross country in prop planes.
there will be advancements in crossbow technology and vert compound technology both, and those things will have to be delt with as we come to those bridges, 400 fps vert compound bows are just about here...

[fasteddie]

Here is the next step after crossbows ...............

http://www.swivelmac...tml/rimfire.htm

[SteveB]

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Here is the next step after crossbows ...............

http://www.swivelmac...tml/rimfire.htm

Standard attempt at deflection - and a poor one.

Uses explosives as propellent - not a string.