Non Lead Bullets For Hunting?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

as I was driving around this past weekend, it dawned on me that these scavengers are more likely to die from being hit by cars as they dine on roadkill then they do from the effects of lead poisoning......

rubber poisoning?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

It is going to sound cruel and heartless but here goes anyway. As a species we have regulated  and legislated ourselves into a weaker species with each generation. We are trying to regulate selective evolution out of the natural progression. In a natural state or even years ago before modern medicine and an increasing life expectancy. , people wouldn't be around to pass on conditions. Look at asthma and allergies. Is our environment getting that much worse or are we weaker as a species  and just reacting to what has always been.

 

As a side note, I sure wish I could find a bunch of good lead split shot. The stuff nowadays sucks. won't stay on the line and you need to used a much bigger size to accomplish the same thing.

[Curmudgeon]

In NY state and most of the country carrion eaters are primarily crows, raccoons, opossums, coyotes and raptors (hawks making up the large majority) and all of these are on the increase or at historical highs as far as there population is concerned. Turkey Vultures and Black Vultures in the East are expanding there population and increasing their range. California Condors are the notable exception, they do not reproduce until they are between 6 and 8 years old and produce only one egg every two years. The bird's problems have not stopped and have gotten worse after a almost one year of the total banning of lead ammo in California

References:

http://www.oglethorpe.edu/faculty/~r_donnelly/expanding.pdf

http://rpi-project.org/2011/assessments.php

Thanks primarily to the activism of the NRA and NRA members, the EPA was not able to implement "anti-hunting groups" demands that the agency impose a nationwide ban on lead ammunition. This is still real danger despite soft peddling by some. Most hunters, (myself included) already use some copper, tungsten or steel in our hunting. Many in our society and the mainstream media already marginalize hunters and want to stop hunting do we really need "useful idiot" hunters to help them?

 

The "useful idiot" checking in again after getting caught up in the complications of life for a few days. A draft of a scientific paper in my possession lists eastern scavengers at >240 winter camera trap sites baited with carcasses in the Appalachians from ME to AL from 2008-2012. When over 2,000,000 photographs were examined, the scavengers showed up in this order of frequency (I am only including those who were present on 10% of days or more): Crow, Raven, Red-tailed Hawk, Golden Eagle, Coyote, Raccoon, Bald Eagle, Bobcat, Opossum, Turkey Vulture, Red Fox, Gray Fox. You would remove Raccoon, Opossum and Turkey Vulture from a list for New York with a 10% threshold.

 

In this group, raptors are the most sensitive to lead, and in NYS make up half of the top 6 species scavenging on carcasses in the winter.

 

I regularly talk to 2 researchers that test the blood lead levels of wild Golden Eagles. In a study that is still a draft, of 190 western Golden Eagles, 58% had lead levels above 10 µg/dL. Of 49 eastern Golden Eagles, 61% had lead levels above 10 µg/dL. So the majority of Golden Eagles have been exposed to lead in amounts that would give a pediatrician, or someone who cares about wildlife pause. Most of you have probably never seen a Golden Eagle in the east. However, most of you have seen Bald Eagles which are now almost common. Common enough that they are showing up more often at rehabilitators and the DEC pathology lab with lead poisoning. the only significant source of lead in late fall and early winter is from deer carcasses. The eastern birds were all trapped in winter. The western birds in the fall during hunting season. The Bald Eagles may be getting some lead from woodchucks - since they are here in the warm months.

 

Everyone should be using copper bullets and slugs for hunting. This conversation did not start about a ban. It is about doing what is good for you and wildlife. If someone cares about their health, their childrens' and grandchildrens' health, and wildlife, they are a "useful idiot."

 

I remain usefully yours,

The Curmudgeon

[Curmudgeon]

BTW - One of my hunting buddies says there is a good supply of copper at Gander Mtn in Binghamton. Herb Phillipson's in New Hartford had several calibers when I was there last. And, my brother found some at Bass Pro in Utica.

[Mr VJP]

Vlywaterman,

 

When the rain stopped today, I had the chance to test the copper ammo you gave me at the Sportsman show.  

 

I took 3 of my own 30-06 hand loads and tested them first.  They are Hornady 165gr boat tail spire point bullets.  These are copper jackets over lead cores.  Then I fired the 3 Federal Premium Copper 165gr spire points you gave me.  

 

They were all fired from My Kimber 8400 Montana with a Leupold Vari-X II 3x9 scope at a distance of 100 yards.

 

I can testify the copper bullets show equal accuracy to my carefully developed hand loads.  The one bullet that went a little left of the other two was my fault, not the bullet's.  Thanks for the chance to test them out.  I hope you find this information useful.

 

 

 

 

[Curmudgeon]

Mr VJP -

 

Our experience with 30-06, .270 and 7mm-08 are the same as yours.

[Curmudgeon]

This link was sent to me this morning by a DEC wildlife employee. If you don't have tunnel vision, it is worth reading. The point of the article is, you don't have to give a raptor a lethal dose to kill it. http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2014/aug/wingedwarnings10metalmadness

 

On another front - the USFWS process to enact 30 year "take" permits for eagles, supposedly has provisions to mitigate excessive "take". Guess what one of the mitigation measures is? Lead abatement. What do you think that means? You will not find the answer at huntingfortruth.

 

http://eaglescoping.org/topics#compensatory-mitigation

 

I attached a chart from a March 2010 NYSDEC memo I obtained through the state's Freedom of information law. Keep in mind that these are only what ended up at the pathology lab, not at rehabilitators. It doesn't include the many birds that died and were never shipped to Delmar.

 

Edited September 15, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[Culvercreek hunt club]

This link was sent to me this morning by a DEC wildlife employee. If you don't have tunnel vision, it is worth reading. The point of the article is, you don't have to give a raptor a lethal dose to kill it. http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2014/aug/wingedwarnings10metalmadness

 

On another front - the USFWS process to enact 30 year "take" permits for eagles, supposedly has provisions to mitigate excessive "take". Guess what one of the mitigation measures is? Lead abatement. What do you think that means? You will not find the answer at huntingfortruth.

 

http://eaglescoping.org/topics#compensatory-mitigation

 

I attached a chart from a March 2010 NYSDEC memo I obtained through the state's Freedom of information law. Keep in mind that these are only what ended up at the pathology lab, not at rehabilitators. It doesn't include the many birds that died and were never shipped to Delmar.

 

Chart.JPG

so out of all those cases in the DEC chart 355  (that vast majority) are waterfowl and attributed to lead shot, which has been banned for the latter half of the chart data period. We have no idea from this what cases took place pre or post ban. Without that data a person could just as easily assert that the major issue has been dealt with and the other cases are minimal especially bullets.

[Doc]

so out of all those cases in the DEC chart 355  (that vast majority) are waterfowl and attributed to lead shot, which has been banned for the latter half of the chart data period. We have no idea from this what cases took place pre or post ban. Without that data a person could just as easily assert that the major issue has been dealt with and the other cases are minimal especially bullets.

Interesting and seemingly accurate analysis of the chart. The chart does not make a very strong case against lead bullets.

[Curmudgeon]

Sorry for the lack of context.I didn't think it made sense to include the whole memo. Here's a quote about the geese:

 

"A majority of these cases are Canada geese poisoned after ingesting large numbers of small lead birdshot at trap and skeet ranges in Suffolk and Rensselaer Counties. Geese also ingest spent lead birdshot while feeding in areas heavily contaminated prior to the ban on lead shot for waterfowl hunting."

 

I tried to attach the spread sheet but it won't let me. I'm hoping this copy and paste works.

 

BTW - Interesting that Doc thinks this somehow doesn't make a case for lead-free bullets. It is the tip of the iceberg. Consider the numbers of Red-tailed Hawks compared to both species of eagles in New York during this period. Then compare how many hawks vs. eagle poisonings occurred.

 

CANADA GOOSE 6 4/11/1973 CANADA GOOSE 1 4/29/1975 CANADA GOOSE 1 4/18/1975 CANADA GOOSE 1 3/19/1977 CANADA GOOSE 1 6/6/1977 CANADA GOOSE 2 10/12/1980 CANADA GOOSE 1 2/8/1984 CANADA GOOSE 1 1/5/1984 CANADA GOOSE 1 3/31/1984 CANADA GOOSE 2 4/23/1984 CANADA GOOSE 1 3/2/1985 CANADA GOOSE 11 12/3/1985 CANADA GOOSE 4 12/9/1985 CANADA GOOSE 1 3/17/1986 CANADA GOOSE 1 4/3/1986 CANADA GOOSE 15 10/31/1988 CANADA GOOSE 1 10/31/1988 CANADA GOOSE 4 3/24/1988 CANADA GOOSE 1 4/8/1989 CANADA GOOSE 1 3/27/1989 CANADA GOOSE 1 3/21/1989 CANADA GOOSE 2 4/30/1991 CANADA GOOSE 1 2/5/1992 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/19/1992 CANADA GOOSE 1 12/4/1992 CANADA GOOSE 1 12/10/1992 CANADA GOOSE 3 12/15/1992 CANADA GOOSE 1 12/14/1992 CANADA GOOSE 1 12/29/1992 CANADA GOOSE 1 1/4/1993 CANADA GOOSE 1 1/6/1993 CANADA GOOSE 1 1/15/1993 CANADA GOOSE 1 1/11/1993 CANADA GOOSE 6 2/5/1993 CANADA GOOSE 1 10/20/1993 CANADA GOOSE 1 10/24/1993 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/1/1993 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/4/1993 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/6/1993 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/6/1993 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/10/1993 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/19/1993 CANADA GOOSE 2 11/21/1993 CANADA GOOSE 4 11/11/1993 CANADA GOOSE 1 3/19/1994 CANADA GOOSE 1 3/24/1994 CANADA GOOSE 5 9/28/1994 CANADA GOOSE 6 9/27/1994 CANADA GOOSE 5 9/26/1994 CANADA GOOSE 7 9/27/1994 CANADA GOOSE 2 9/29/1994 CANADA GOOSE 3 9/29/1994 CANADA GOOSE 4 10/6/1994 CANADA GOOSE 42 12/10/1994 CANADA GOOSE 15 12/16/1994 CANADA GOOSE 20 12/20/1994 CANADA GOOSE 1 2/15/1995 CANADA GOOSE 1 3/6/1995 CANADA GOOSE 1 3/16/1995 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/29/1995 CANADA GOOSE 1 4/4/1996 CANADA GOOSE 3 11/18/1996 CANADA GOOSE 1 5/7/1996 CANADA GOOSE 1 4/29/1997 CANADA GOOSE 1 4/29/1997 CANADA GOOSE 3 12/4/1997 CANADA GOOSE 3 11/8/1997 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/12/1997 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/12/1997 CANADA GOOSE 2 11/19/1997 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/12/1997 CANADA GOOSE 3 11/13/1997 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/13/1997 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/14/1997 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/13/1997 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/15/1997 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/25/1997 CANADA GOOSE 3 11/26/1997 CANADA GOOSE 2 12/11/1997 CANADA GOOSE 1 12/9/1997 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/18/1997 CANADA GOOSE 1 12/12/1997 CANADA GOOSE 1 12/20/1998 CANADA GOOSE 1 1/22/1999 CANADA GOOSE 1 10/25/1999 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/12/2001 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/9/2001 CANADA GOOSE 1 11/29/2001 CANADA GOOSE 9 11/30/2001 CANADA GOOSE 2 11/30/2001 CANADA GOOSE 1 12/14/2001 CANADA GOOSE 5 12/4/2001 CANADA GOOSE 1 10/19/2001 CANADA GOOSE 1 1/16/2002 CANADA GOOSE 3 3/7/2002 CANADA GOOSE 1 4/3/2002 CANADA GOOSE 1 10/15/2002 CANADA GOOSE 1 7/24/2002 CANADA GOOSE 8 1/24/2003 CANADA GOOSE 5 3/18/2003 CANADA GOOSE 1 10/15/2005 CANADA GOOSE 1 8/8/2006 CANADA GOOSE 20 3/7/2010 CANADA GOOSE 1 10/24/2001 CANADA GOOSE 3 10/24/2007 CANADA GOOSE 8 11/14/2008 CANADA GOOSE 31 2/9/2009

 

Edited September 15, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[Culvercreek hunt club]

 

 

BTW - Interesting that Doc thinks this somehow doesn't make a case for lead-free bullets. It is the tip of the iceberg. Consider the numbers of Red-tailed Hawks compared to both species of eagles in New York during this period. Then compare how many hawks vs. eagle poisonings occurred.

 

Since they are far more prevalent, wouldn't some have showed up in the study as confirmed bullet poisonings?

[Curmudgeon]

No, because in most cases we are talking about minute fragments.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

No, because in most cases we are talking about minute fragments.

So a hawk or eagle would have to consume a full bullet to be in that category? Even at that, there were only two read tails, 3 other Raptors and 2  vultures that  that were in the "other category"  I imagine they tested positive for lead but no physical shot, sinkers, bullets or jig heads could be found? Or does that column mean they had evidence and it s other than projectiles?

[Curmudgeon]

DEC pathology could not determine the source of some of the lead. This is not a surprise because it takes nothing even close to a full bullet. There are very few cases like the PA bird with the air rifle pellet in its gut. I could try to create a dropbox for anyone who wants the memo and spreadsheet. Just ask.

 

A 130 grain bullet equals about 8 1/2 million µg. A dL equals about 3.4 ounces. 10 µg/dL in the blood is often considered a level at which symptoms appear but no level is safe. Say that 130 grain bullet sheds 30% of its mass into the carcass and cavity before passing through (20-30% is normal). That leaves 2 1/2 million µg still in the carcass. If a 10 pound eagle has a quart of blood (a wild guess on my part), It has about 9 dL of blood - or almost a liter. That means it would need to absorb 90 of the 2 1/2 million µg that remain in the animal into its blood to reach the 10 µg/dL level. If there are 100 equal fragments, each one contains 25,000 µg. Say that eagle eats one fragment, it only needs 90 µg out of 25,000 to enter its blood stream to reach the 10 µg/dL. Those tiny fragments could easily be dissolved by stomach acid. These are incredibly small amounts.

 

I am attaching a photo from this paper showing fragmentation http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/PDFs_Main/BulletFragmentationInWTDeerAndImplicationsForScavengers.pdf

Edited September 15, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[Doc]

37 years of testing, and only two confirmed cases from bullet fragments in the entire study, and that involving only one species. What other conclusion is one to draw? Birdshot is the overwhelming  cause and remedial action has been taken for that. Bullet fragments show up as basically statistical noise. I repeat: "The chart does not make a very strong case against lead bullets".

[Curmudgeon]

Doc -

 

First, the chart is not a study. It is data.

 

Second, you - and others - expect them to find bullet fragments because you think it takes something the size you can see to poison the birds. Please read my previous post about the size of the fragments.

 

Here is another attempt to put it in perspective:

One grain - as in one of 130 gr or 160 gr bullet - equals 64,800 micrograms. It only takes 10 micrograms per 1/10 of a liter (3.4 oz) of blood to poison an eagle. Scavengers are VERY likely to consume these tiny fragments. They are much less likely to consume the very few large pieces of lead in a carcass that would be seen. Loons on the other hand - for those of you who still want lead spit shot - are picking up pieces they use as grit. This explains why the source for loons is easier to determine.

 

I know it can be difficult to understand that pieces of lead too small to see can and do poison these birds. However, unlike the albatross in the article I provided the link for yesterday, eagles are not picking up paint chips around old houses. They are not using old plumbing. They are only eating meat. They are getting the lead from meat.

 

Consider my friend who worked in the test range at Remington. He got pulled from that department whenever his blood lead went up - which was regularly. This was from dust in the air. Dust too small to see. Using your logic, maybe he got the lead somewhere else.

 

[Doc]

So are we saying that we should form policy based on evidence that even the best science cannot define?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I can only assume from the chart that the "Other category" is microscopic then? It would have to be large enough to be an identifiable fragment for them to place it in a category?

Let's for a minute accept the part about it only needing very small microscopic trace amounts to poison these birds. As you said the eagles are eating meat. (as I assume all the raptors are too).

 

Taking the geese and waterfowl out of that data. Is there any other environmental possibility to exposure for lead in these birds? Based on the amounts you stated that are needed to poison them, it wouldn't take much.

[Doc]

Has anybody ever done a study on other carrion eaters such as skunks, possums, raccoons, coyotes, weasels and such? Just curious.

[Curmudgeon]

I can only assume from the chart that the "Other category" is microscopic then?

 

Is there any other environmental possibility to exposure for lead in these birds? Based on the amounts you stated that are needed to poison them, it wouldn't take much.

 

Good question. I have read a lot of literature. I don't know of any other ligit source. I would be willing to consider anything that is not clearly propaganda.

 

Before the waterfowl lead shot ban, Bald Eagles - being sea eagles that hang out around water - were being poisoned by bird shot they picked up in injured ducks and geese. The bird shot - being large compared to bullet fragments - was easy to find. This happens rarely now.

 

It is possible that some of this is secondary poisoning. Maybe if an eagle fed on a sick skeet range goose - without actually consuming the pellets in the geese - they could conceivably be poisoned. This happens with rat poison regularly. Scavengers find poisoned rats easy to catch. Actually, the cat lady next door put out rat poison and ended up poisoning some of her unvaccinated, mostly feral cats.

 

 

 

[Curmudgeon]

Has anybody ever done a study on other carrion eaters such as skunks, possums, raccoons, coyotes, weasels and such? Just curious.

 

In a meeting with DEC in June, I requested they collect bone samples from coyote and crow hunters and measure the lifetime exposure of lead in those animals. I have not heard back yet from them. As I mentioned in an earlier post, a bone-lead study has been done with Black Vultures and showed chronic exposure. This is awaiting publication. 

 

Another interesting study would be to compare the lifetime lead levels in road-killed scavengers compared to those away from roads. When you consider how many are actually in the road, crows rarely get hit by car.  Observational data suggests that many more crows get killed on roads during West Nile Virus outbreaks. Impaired animals are more likely to make mistakes. Then again, any animals along the road are at higher risk so this line of thought might not apply to possums and skunks.

 

[vlywaterman]

quite an intelligent conversation going on, I don't know if I can join with just my own thoughts here. Birds may be affected more by lead than small mammals due to the different digestive system, with a crop and gizzard. Also(just my opinion again), a raccoon or skunk might still get a long ok functioning poorly, finds some food, and can allow the lead poisoning effects to pass. You don't want to be impaired if you have to fly around and get food. And if you can't fly well, you don't eat. That is why so many birds are found starving. And of course, for adults, lead will have less of an affect than on young as the lead which mimics calcium will actually be deposited in bones. Calcium in the blood is used in all our muscles and nervous system as well. 

If one wants to read a really long paper, but quite well documented concerning the National Park Service and it's switch to non lead in some areas, check this out. It also goes into the psychology of why regulation is not the best avenue to choose. It has fishing as well as hunting information.

http://www.georgewright.org/281ross-winslow.pdf

[Mr VJP]

An article on the economic effects of a total ban on lead in ammo.  It's happening in California.  Often, that's where all of this stuff starts.

 

http://www.guns.com/2014/09/18/proposed-lead-ammo-ban-to-cause-huge-price-jump-shortages/

 

[Curmudgeon]

I saw the news release. I oppose a ban but read this carefully. A shortage of lead free bullets was predicted for this year because of the CA ban. That is not news. I'm pleased that guns.com had the good sense to edit out the worst claims. 

 

Why haven't copper bullet prices increased in NYS recently?

[Mr VJP]

Probably because the demand for them hasn't increased yet, due to a state mandate requiring them.

 

A big concern is the number of hunters predicted to drop out of the game.  The economic effects of jobs lost because of that, as well as the license fees and sales taxes lost, that would have benefited hunting and wildlife, are all effects I don't think people understand.  

 

All of this would benefit the anti-hunting/anti-gun agenda in the country though.