Non Lead Bullets For Hunting?

[Doc]

You can't keep beating on guns and now ammo without some pretty dramatic unintended (or intended) consequences. Hunters do need a break from all these constant attacks on essentials, or I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it doesn't begin to have impacts on hunter numbers. Something's got to give.

[Mr VJP]

Hunter numbers are already on the decline.  A lot of it is caused by lack of hunting land available to the general public and the high cost of getting started.  When you consider how much a newbie has to invest to get started, between guns, ammo, clothes, boots, misc equipment, licenses, permits, gas for the car to travel upstate or to the hunting place, etc., etc., it is very expensive.  It has to be an investment for the long term.  But how does a new guy know if he's going to be in it for the long term if he never gets to try it out?

 

Anything else added on top of that pile, isn't going to recruit more hunters, it's going to turn away more of them.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Agreed, we need more hunters. We don't need a ban.

[vlywaterman]

Mr. VJP

I believe we have more public lands open now to hunting than we ever had. According to the NYCDEP, as of Jan.2013 they had opened 52,000 acres for hunting access... DEC has 4,000,000 acres, plus there are some military bases, and of course private lands. I think the ultimate reason for the decline in hunting is that attitudes have changed for a lot of kids,i.e.  tv, games, not many kids get outdoors these days. 

I also asked our NYS ammo producer if they were anticipating a shortage after I had read the new NSSF report on the anticipated ammo shortage, and the problem it will cause.

this was the reply:

 

 

 

From: Amanda Kenefick <[email protected]>

Subject: RE: Traditional Ammunition Ban to Cause Shortages, Price Spikes

Date: September 22, 2014 12:53:57 PM EDT

To: Michael DiBenedetto <[email protected]>

Hi,

We are currently on lay off until we move some of our existing stock, so I have not tried to purchase projos since July, however I had no problem or no indication of upcoming problems at that time. 

Thank you,
Amanda

From: [email protected]
Subject: Fwd: Traditional Ammunition Ban to Cause Shortages, Price Spikes
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 14:16:57 -0400
To: [email protected]

Hello Amanda, 

Do you believe this is a big concern for us in NYS? Are you folks having a problem filling orders? 

thanks,

 

michael

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

 

 

I also asked our NYS ammo producer if they were anticipating a shortage after I had read the new NSSF report on the anticipated ammo shortage, and the problem it will cause.

this was the reply:

 

 

 

 

From: Amanda Kenefick <[email protected]>

Subject: RE: Traditional Ammunition Ban to Cause Shortages, Price Spikes

Date: September 22, 2014 12:53:57 PM EDT

To: Michael DiBenedetto <[email protected]>

Hi,

We are currently on lay off until we move some of our existing stock, so I have not tried to purchase projos since July, however I had no problem or no indication of upcoming problems at that time. 

Thank you,

Amanda

From: [email protected]

Subject: Fwd: Traditional Ammunition Ban to Cause Shortages, Price Spikes

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 14:16:57 -0400

To: [email protected]

Hello Amanda, 

Do you believe this is a big concern for us in NYS? Are you folks having a problem filling orders? 

thanks,

 

michael

 

Producer?

 

 

Let Amanda know I will stop by on Friday. I would like about 5,000 rounds of 22LR

[Mr VJP]

Culver, they do make ammo, but I don't think they have .22LR.

 

[vlywaterman]

From Pierce  http://www.pierceoutfitters.com/poShop/index.php/cPath/63

 

there is some at http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ProductListing.aspx?catid=490    not many non lead right now though.

 

Look at this site as well, which is very easy, quite a few non lead,  just a pain to have it shipped in.

http://www.gunbot.net/ammo/rimfire/22lr/

lots of 22 in stock. shows real time, well,, as of hours ago, what is in stock.

[vlywaterman]

Culver, why wouldn't you look at Pierce's website,,, it is US and NY made(not sure if 22 is made in NY). Then you can contact them, and let us know how you made out.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Pierce loads a lot of Barnes bullets for Ted Nugent.

[Dinsdale]

 

Pierce loads a lot of Barnes bullets for Ted Nugent.

Is that supposed to impress me or make me laugh?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Almost 13 cents a round and round nose. I'll pass. I had never heard of them and when I googled it the place that came up appeared to be a shop not a manufacturer. The email you posted made it sound like a ban wouldn't cause an issue because they have stock now. Did I read it wrong?

[vlywaterman]

http://www.gunbot.ne...o/rimfire/22lr/

this site has quite a few at .10, but I don't know what shipping might be. And the Pierce at .13/round was for copper, I think.

My thoughts on the ban, (in CA)is that it has not made it impossible for us to get ammo or to get copper, and the study by the NSSF seemed a bit alarmist. 

And 22LR has been a bit of a problem for a few years now.

I have never purchased from Pierce, I only found them online a month or so ago, and have only spoken with Amanda once and had some email correspondence. I had asked her if I put together a large order, if I could come out and pick it up for some friends down here. And I asked about the "seconds". She asked me to give her a few days advance to put the order together, and that the seconds only had blemishes but were fine otherwise. It would be great if someone was near there or could make a trip there and let us know about the place. 

How much were the last 22s you purchased, and how long ago was that?

I haven't purchased any in years. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

8 to 9 cents. A lot of price gouging going on. 10 is most common.

[vlywaterman]

Just a bit of information for those that may be looking for some ammo from Pierce.

http://batchgeo.com/map/?i=4fb4720b6c54b37cebd0e80b0c81ad41&q=14424

And a hunter that just came back from hog hunting in SC, sent me this link: http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/bullet-talk/faq/#tsx_faq

He told me the guide was glad that he was using copper(called "hog hammers") as he hated chasing down wounded animals.

 

[vlywaterman]

By the way, I just bought 12 gauge Remington Copper Solids at Del Sports in Margaretville, where I have been buying all my copper. They were $14/box, about half of what they were in Dicks

[Curmudgeon]

I just read a couple of articles on copper bullets from MN -

 

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mcvmagazine/archive.html?keyword=copper%20bullets

http://www.startribune.com/sports/outdoors/277937621.html?page=1&c=y

[catskillMTNman]

I'm new to this site and I'm the hunter in vlywaterman's photo. I'll be complete honest with everyone at first when I heard the idea of using copper bullets I was like yeah ok I've used lead my whole life why try copper. Then I did research on copper and said what the hell I'll try them. Well the results were shocking. Much more accurate and consistent then lead now that's just on paper. Then I did my own test with a 1/4" steel plate rested on a 2x4 set horizontal. I shot the copper round first it blew through the plate and the 4" of wood and kept going. I shot it again with a lead core bullet the copper jacket stuck almost perfect in the steel plate and the lead that came out of it hardly left a mark on the wood. So when I shot my boar I went up to it and look at the entry and the exit hole and at first I did not think the bullet expanded at all until we skinned that boar, the Barnes tsx bullet left a massive exit hole like they said it would. But the main part of the bullet kept in one piece and if there was another boar behind the one I dropped in it's tracks there would have been another. Trust me I'm not for banning lead ammo at all but if there's a much better bullet with more knockdown power then lead your damn right I'm going to use it.... To me lead bullets are a thing of the past and to be honest with everyone lead bullets are junk compared to copper. When a bullet fragments like lead you loose a lot of energy, where a copper stays together it retains it's energy. The U.S military are even switching to copper bullets what more can I say

Edited October 9, 2014 by catskillMTNman

[Mr VJP]

California was the first state to start mandating non-lead ammo in specific areas.  It's easy to see a total ban is what was always intended from the start, as we look at what has been done so far and where they are now.  It's a step by step process that gets them where they want to be, as soon as possible, without getting shooters and hunters in an uproar where the politicians lose votes.

 

Once any state starts talking about banning lead ammo for anything, a total ban is where they are headed.

 

http://www.shootingwire.com/story/331258

[Curmudgeon]

California was the first state to start mandating non-lead ammo in specific areas.  It's easy to see a total ban is what was always intended from the start, as we look at what has been done so far and where they are now.  It's a step by step process that gets them where they want to be, as soon as possible, without getting shooters and hunters in an uproar where the politicians lose votes.

 

Once any state starts talking about banning lead ammo for anything, a total ban is where they are headed.

 

I asked my friend who works in Yosemite NP, and comes here to hunt every November, how hunters were reacting to the ban of lead ammo for hunting in CA. He said he had not heard much of a reaction. He also noted that he and his friends had already switched voluntarily o lead-free shot for bird hunting.

 

There is a really good, factual, and easy to follow video on lead bullet fragmentation on this site from the MN DNR - http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/lead/index.html . Click on on-line presentation.

 

This shows what happens to a lead poisoned eagle - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWxFRjLPPXo . It is intended to elicit an emotional response but still worth watching.

 

[Mr VJP]

Another attempt to ban lead ammo in Colorado.

 

Colorado Park & Wildlife Commission Denies Ammo Petition 

It was a nearly unanimous (5-1) rejection of a petition asking the Colorado Wildlife Commission to prohibit the use of traditional ammunition for hunting all game in the state. Commission members based the rejection of the petition on -you guessed it- the absence of credible scientific evidence, along with the potential economic impact on hunters, businesses -and the Parks and Wildlife budget. 

 

Once Pandora's box has been opened, there is no turning back.  How did all the past generations of hunters ever survive using lead ammo?

 

Edited November 17, 2014 by Mr VJP

[vlywaterman]

There is a pretty good article on non-lead ammo in the new Conservationist. Some of the pictures didn't have captions and I wasn't sure what they were, but overall it was pretty informative. Another good source for looking up the ammo you need if using non-lead is : https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Hunting/Nonlead-Ammunition/Certified  the nice thing about this site is that if you know your gun likes Hornady or Remington bullets you can look at each manufacturers website to see if they make your particular ammo. Then ask you dealer to get some in,,, (thank you Mr. Cuomo).

this site has some good info on non-lead;  http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/bullets_centerfire.html