Food for thought: yearling buck protection

[Buckstopshere]

After mulling through the Pa. 2014 harvest report, I stumbled on an interesting statistic. One of the justifications...or stated reasons for mandatory Antler Restrictions is to "protect the yearling buck." But...these figures, taken from the Pa. 2014 harvest report (available online) show 47% of the bucks harvested last season under mandatory AR were 1.5 year olds. And 53% of the bucks were 2.5 and older.

Surprise surprise....after checking last season's NY 2014 harvest report ....48% of the antler bucks harvested were 1.5 year olds (and that is with Voluntary AR...those of us passing on small bucks), 29% of the bucks in NY harvested last year were 2.5 and 23% were 3.5 and older.

 

NY and Pa. harvested the same percent of yearling bucks...one state (Pa.) has mandatory AR and the other (NY) has voluntary AR.

 

Those are the stats.  My question is...if New York hunters shoot the same percentage of yearling bucks as Pa., how is mandatory AR's going to protect the yearling buck?

 

Obviously, counting antler points as Pa. does (three on one side in most of the state and four on a side in the DMUs that are closer to Ohio,) is not any more effective in saving yearling bucks as no mandatory AR.

 

So how is New York going to do any better at saving the yearling buck with their buck zones if forcing hunters to count points on a side is ineffective? The stats point out, that ARs are ineffective. Why do it at all?

 

 

[Lawdwaz]

After mulling through the Pa. 2014 harvest report, I stumbled on an interesting statistic. One of the justifications...or stated reasons for mandatory Antler Restrictions is to "protect the yearling buck." But...these figures, taken from the Pa. 2014 harvest report (available online) show 47% of the bucks harvested last season under mandatory AR were 1.5 year olds. And 53% of the bucks were 2.5 and older.

Surprise surprise....after checking last season's NY 2014 harvest report ....48% of the antler bucks harvested were 1.5 year olds (and that is with Voluntary AR...those of us passing on small bucks), 29% of the bucks in NY harvested last year were 2.5 and 23% were 3.5 and older.

 

NY and Pa. harvested the same percent of yearling bucks...one state (Pa.) has mandatory AR and the other (NY) has voluntary AR.

 

Those are the stats.  My question is...if New York hunters shoot the same percentage of yearling bucks as Pa., how is mandatory AR's going to protect the yearling buck?

 

Obviously, counting antler points as Pa. does (three on one side in most of the state and four on a side in the DMUs that are closer to Ohio,) is not any more effective in saving yearling bucks as no mandatory AR.

 

So how is New York going to do any better at saving the yearling buck with their buck zones if forcing hunters to count points on a side is ineffective? The stats point out, that ARs are ineffective. Why do it at all?

 

Just one guys worthless opinion.................(mine, not yours Oak)

 

If AR's OR the One Buck Rule are implemented the heat will definitely be on the YEARLING buck as they will surely be killed by guys (mistakenly of course) shooting an antlerless deer in lieu of a buck sporting 3 points to a side.  And only obviously the doe fawn and mature doe will take a big hit like PA hunters have done.

 

Oh wait........they WANTED to protect the yearling buck right? 

 

   

 

Edited August 4, 2015 by Lawdwaz

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Trophy bucks on horizon for Ny state. Bigger bucks will bring in out of state hunters. They wont have to go all the way to Ohio.illy,Kansas when they can stop off in Ny.   Or something like that.  LOL    Someone has the bigger plan all figured out.

[Five Seasons]

I prefer spread of beam length. It's not as easy but general rule in MS is to the ears and beyond. There will always be exceptions and freaks and weird racks but you can't create laws based on 5%.

[BizCT]

This is what they have on certain DEP lands down here in 3N, they have had this for several years now:

Only does may be harvested on the first two days of bow season, the first two days of regular gun season, and the first two days of muzzleloader season—no bucks may be taken on these days.

On all other days of the legal hunting season, bucks may be harvested if they have an antler spread of at least 15 inches in width and/or a minimum of three points on a side greater than one inch long, excluding brow tines.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nyslowhand]

So how is New York going to do any better at saving the yearling buck with their buck zones if forcing hunters to count points on a side is ineffective? The stats point out, that ARs are ineffective. Why do it at all?

Exactly!!!!

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but were ARs initially implemented in certain regions (NYS) due to the pressure of trophy hunters upon the DEC. Another factor that irks me is why is the DEC lately getting involved with hunter satisfaction or their ability to provide the public with sufficient opportunities? Four Seasons' question - Czar Andy is promoting tourism in NY throughout all the state's resources/departments in an effort to bring in $$. Since he can't get employers to start-up or expand any businesses within NYS, his plan is to take out-of-stater's money.

 

Let's see if I've got this correct. The minority, proverbial "squeaky wheel" generally prevails! Secondly, the DEC's primary mission has changed to bringing in money for the general fund and secondarily to address environmental issues. That's not even taking into account the basic, non-outdoorsmen legislators that are creating the environmental (hunting/fishing) laws, FUBAR!

[Doc]

I prefer spread of beam length. It's not as easy but general rule in MS is to the ears and beyond. There will always be exceptions and freaks and weird racks but you can't create laws based on 5%.

Oh yes, the good old outside the ears rule. Maybe a nice loud shout will get them to look straight at you  while you check out if the antlers have the proper relation to the ears. That's always something I try to do before I shoot. It's always a bit more sporting to give them a heads-up that you are there.

 

All these fad-rules simply make it more likely that hunters will just begin assuming that because the antlers look so big from the side that they have to meet whatever arbitrary criteria the rules demand. So what if there are a few more deer rotting in the woods because somebody made a bad gamble.

[phade]

After mulling through the Pa. 2014 harvest report, I stumbled on an interesting statistic. One of the justifications...or stated reasons for mandatory Antler Restrictions is to "protect the yearling buck." But...these figures, taken from the Pa. 2014 harvest report (available online) show 47% of the bucks harvested last season under mandatory AR were 1.5 year olds. And 53% of the bucks were 2.5 and older.

Surprise surprise....after checking last season's NY 2014 harvest report ....48% of the antler bucks harvested were 1.5 year olds (and that is with Voluntary AR...those of us passing on small bucks), 29% of the bucks in NY harvested last year were 2.5 and 23% were 3.5 and older.

 

NY and Pa. harvested the same percent of yearling bucks...one state (Pa.) has mandatory AR and the other (NY) has voluntary AR.

 

Those are the stats.  My question is...if New York hunters shoot the same percentage of yearling bucks as Pa., how is mandatory AR's going to protect the yearling buck?

 

Obviously, counting antler points as Pa. does (three on one side in most of the state and four on a side in the DMUs that are closer to Ohio,) is not any more effective in saving yearling bucks as no mandatory AR.

 

So how is New York going to do any better at saving the yearling buck with their buck zones if forcing hunters to count points on a side is ineffective? The stats point out, that ARs are ineffective. Why do it at all?

 

Maybe it's not the same % but rather the increase % moving to AR? Who knows.

[G-Man]

I am against ar's they do not do anything more than stoke someone's ego thinking they are going to kill a big one, thing is the decrease in population allows yearling bucks to get more nutrition and therefor bigger antlers so your restriction of antler points to make them older is negated.

how many here can say every buck they shot is 8pt or bigger? Everyone starts small and work their way to bigger more mature game as a personal choice. Who are we to tell someone oh sorry can't shoot that when we have a basket full of small bucks in the attic in the garage. Forget antlers and let hunting be what iit's suppose to be, a time to band with older and younger members of family and friends,a harvest of delicious meat, and a fun wholesome experiance away from today's electronic busy world outside in the beauty that is missed in our urban enviroments.

[wooly]

Surprise surprise....after checking last season's NY 2014 harvest report ....48% of the antler bucks harvested were 1.5 year olds (and that is with Voluntary AR...those of us passing on small bucks), 29% of the bucks in NY harvested last year were 2.5 and 23% were 3.5 and older.

 

I'm not exactly sure how they arrived at those numbers.

When I filled out my 2014 buck tags, the only descriptive information I had to check off (report) about my bucks was # of points on right and left antlers.

How in the world they can put a deer in an age bracket based on that information alone is beyond me.

I'm guessing these calculations may be a weeee bit inaccurate..., or at least tweaked a bit for shock purposes.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I am against ar's they do not do anything more than stoke someone's ego thinking they are going to kill a big one, thing is the decrease in population allows yearling bucks to get more nutrition and therefor bigger antlers so your restriction of antler points to make them older is negated.

how many here can say every buck they shot is 8pt or bigger? Everyone starts small and work their way to bigger more mature game as a personal choice. Who are we to tell someone oh sorry can't shoot that when we have a basket full of small bucks in the attic in the garage. Forget antlers and let hunting be what iit's suppose to be, a time to band with older and younger members of family and friends,a harvest of delicious meat, and a fun wholesome experiance away from today's electronic busy world outside in the beauty that is missed in our urban enviroments.

The death of the "deer camps" and the older traditions paved the way for this isolated, myopic approach to hunting. IMO

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I'm not exactly sure how they arrived at those numbers.

When I filled out my 2014 buck tags, the only descriptive information I had to check off (report) about my bucks was # of points on right and left antlers.

How in the world they can put a deer in an age bracket based on that information alone is beyond me.

I'm guessing these calculations may be a weeee bit inaccurate..., or at least tweaked a bit for shock purposes.

Yup they sure like to guess at things when it comes to deer hunting in Ny state!

[Doc]

I'm not exactly sure how they arrived at those numbers.

When I filled out my 2014 buck tags, the only descriptive information I had to check off (report) about my bucks was # of points on right and left antlers.

How in the world they can put a deer in an age bracket based on that information alone is beyond me.

I'm guessing these calculations may be a weeee bit inaccurate..., or at least tweaked a bit for shock purposes.

Ha-ha-ha .... Read up on how the DEC establishes their "Harvest reporting rates" and you will see the iron-clad, absolutely fool-proof ways (accurate to within a couple of percentage points) that they can take spot checks at deer processors and other such places and extrapolate from a relatively insignificant number of dead deer amazing gobs of information about the entire NYS deer herd harvest. No problem! This is the wonderful age of statistics. Aren't you a believer?

 

Heck, coming up with the age of the harvests has to be a piece of cake.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I'm not exactly sure how they arrived at those numbers.

When I filled out my 2014 buck tags, the only descriptive information I had to check off (report) about my bucks was # of points on right and left antlers.

How in the world they can put a deer in an age bracket based on that information alone is beyond me.

I'm guessing these calculations may be a weeee bit inaccurate..., or at least tweaked a bit for shock purposes.

 

Biologists check deer at processors,etc, then they use percentages, formulas to get the numbers

[growalot]

Well I'm going to state this publicly and the DEC and all of your opinions on it be damned!

 If they put this into effect with a spread minimum and I have a specific buck pass within a good shot range ...he's going down and screw the law period. Now I say this for more than a few "crap your pants" bucks having crossed my property... that did not pass such rules...one was the 12" inch brow tine buck who's G-2's were over 12", high tight rack...Another the hog that stepped out in front of me as I was getting out of my car.  Massive body and too many twisted gnarly points to count...in fact I described it and Jesus's  thorny crown. There was no "spread" on that buck. We have many high tight racks . Like the neighbors buck and The bigger 12 point I missed a couple of years ago whose rack had more mass but was the same type of tight high configuration.

I'm actually getting tired of BS..I have been a stickler on the laws always  and I know them pretty well ,unlike a lot of hunters...But I'm getting older and hey admittedly slowing down and I will be double dipped shite if I have such a buck get a pass  when it is clearly a mature buck....Yes I say this with no intentions of ever getting a deer head mounted and with having gotten some nice mature bucks, but not being a Trophy hunter. There that's my stand on it.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Biologists check deer at processors,etc, then they use percentages, formulas to get the numbers

I hope you dont think they get even remotely close to right numbers by doing this?  I could show ya piles of deer that never see any of those places.  

[moog5050]

Biologists check deer at processors,etc, then they use percentages, formulas to get the numbers

 

 

Just curious, am I in a small percentage of hunters that process their own deer?  I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that many hunters don't use processors.

Edited August 4, 2015 by moog5050

[growalot]

When I use a processor it is like Wilsons that require the deer be de-boned and trimmed.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I hope you dont think they get even remotely close to right numbers by doing this?  I could show ya piles of deer that never see any of those places.  

 

I didnt say that I thought they were close. I couldnt even tell you the last time I took a deer to a processor. I only know of one or two guys that do use processors anymore. $75 to cut up a deer is a joke.

[Five Seasons]

Oh yes, the good old outside the ears rule. Maybe a nice loud shout will get them to look straight at you  while you check out if the antlers have the proper relation to the ears. That's always something I try to do before I shoot. It's always a bit more sporting to give them a heads-up that you are there.

 

All these fad-rules simply make it more likely that hunters will just begin assuming that because the antlers look so big from the side that they have to meet whatever arbitrary criteria the rules demand. So what if there are a few more deer rotting in the woods because somebody made a bad gamble.

 

that's why there's also a beam length rule. It's just change and that's why it seems bad to you. It's worked well in MS for years.

 

[Five Seasons]

The death of the "deer camps" and the older traditions paved the way for this isolated, myopic approach to hunting. IMO

 

i think the death of deer camps has more to do with society and culture. I see lots more camps for sale up in the Adirondacks even within the last few years. The economy doesn't support the second home. People require more time on the job and have less vacation, or they need a camp with amenities. I feel the days of ditching the family for a few weekends a year aren't a reality anymore. We get sh!t from our wife's that seem to get more attention than the husband/father of the 70's and 80's got.

 

just my .02.

[Five Seasons]

Well I'm going to state this publicly and the DEC and all of your opinions on it be damned!

 If they put this into effect with a spread minimum and I have a specific buck pass within a good shot range ...he's going down and screw the law period.

 

so you will fight up and down with us about the sunrise/sunset laws...but this one is ok to break?

[dbHunterNY]

in my experience 3 pts to a side doesn't do a good enough job to protect yearling bucks.  for antler restrictions with respect to protection of yearlings I like spread more.  if we could protect more yearlings without them I'd be all for that.  not every deer will fit the mold for ARs.  if it's 2.5 and it doesn't meet them who cares.  everybody follow the law and it's bigger next year.  if the buck is mature and still doesn't then chances are it's big enough nobody will care or think to question a spread requirement that's an inch off.  if a yearling gets shot it's not the end of the world.  more every year.  if a majority due there part and pass on yearlings more often ARs won't matter and you'll have choice.  everyone posting in these forums have vested enough time, they should be able to tell the difference with reasonable success and understand relatively why it's a good idea.

 

sure there's ideas of what DEC might implement.  however, I don't know how we can talk about DEC restrictions being effective or not when we don't even know what they are yet.

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

i think the death of deer camps has more to do with society and culture. I see lots more camps for sale up in the Adirondacks even within the last few years. The economy doesn't support the second home. People require more time on the job and have less vacation, or they need a camp with amenities. I feel the days of ditching the family for a few weekends a year aren't a reality anymore. We get sh!t from our wife's that seem to get more attention than the husband/father of the 70's and 80's got.

just my .02.

I agree with the real estate points you made but I put it in quotes because I meant the social aspect of how it use to be more so than a physical location. The groups of yesterday are fading and it has turned to a one or two person endeavor now.

[phade]

I agree with the real estate points you made but I put it in quotes because I meant the social aspect of how it use to be more so than a physical location. The groups of yesterday are fading and it has turned to a one or two person endeavor now.

 

It's also because hunting is a hobby often given more of a year-round approach by people nowadays. Sure, there are plenty of weekend warriors and opening day only hunters, but there's also alot more people that are doing hunting related activity Jan-Sept.

 

Also I think camp style hunting is more of a gun hunting mentality. Bowhunting is definitely more elitist in that regard, and with bowhunting, it's not as much of a camp mentality. At least, for me.