Buckstopshere

Sorry, I did not mean to offend you, but spare me the ad hominem jabs and chest pounding. Nothing in nature happens at the same time each year on our calendars, from the ripening of apples, to the migration of birds, to the hatching of specific species of mayflies on our rivers, streams, and lakes. Why should anyone, let alone a scientist, presume that something as complex as the rut of the whitetail deer happen each year at the same time? My point was just plain old anecdotal time in the woods, recording how the rut unfolds here each year (since the mid-70s) makes it clearly evident that the rut peaks at different times each year within a three-week window.

If you think the rut happens each year at the same time, you haven't hunted enough.

I am one of the lucky guys in that I have hunted virtually every day, (usually twice, morning and evening) and have for 45 years. I have been blessed with an understanding family and a job that allowed me to work most of the time around my hunting hours. But sometimes, corporate demanded that I submit a budget and explain it right during the rut. It killed me! When I was traveling down to Pa. or to Boston, I saw the dead deer on the road, knowing that I was missing the peak of the running time of the rut. My sons were into sports, one in football and the other in soccer. I took them to their practices and of course all the games. Looking back, I missed a lot of prime time bow hunting, but I would do it again, just the same in a heartbeat. I still managed to kill a lot of bucks. It's a balancing act...family and hunting. But the choices of business and family, balanced against my time in the woods has been one of the major paradigms of my life. And still is ;0)

If I had only one arrow or shot in my gun and there were two bucks the same age/size standing there, one had a high and wide balanced "elegant" or spindly 10-point rack and the other was a 7 pt. with gnarly mass, curved stickers on the bases G-2s 12 inches...I would probably shoot the 10 hoping the 7 point would have the best potential for next year if he got through the season.

When I finally get it all figured out, I promised myself that I would take up a sensible, soothing sport like golf where there is no frustration and I don't have to wear weird outfits anymore.

I see what you mean. Dandy buck! but not much growth evident in that 9 point in almost 3 weeks of prime antler growth time when antler growth rate should be peaking. Shows the variability in wild bucks.

How do you know it is not the same buck? The odds of having a crab claw on the end of the right beam making him a 9 point are pretty slim. The two cameras were on the same hillside. I suppose it is possible. But it is the first 9 point I have seen there in about 12 years of hunting it. Besides the point on the end of the right beam and the deer has a narrow, drawn face with identical mask markings. But I could be wrong. Here is another shot of him from the back in mid-July, showing the bulb on the end of the right beam. But I could be wrong and there could be three 9 points on that ridge. In my experience, that type of antler formation is a pretty distinctive and unique trait. Some bucks grow a lot from mid-July to mid-August, others not so much. But maybe you see something I don't.

Just got out of the woods, checking another camera on another property. Another bachelor group...this is the best buck in that group, but there is a rumor going around that a bonfide tanker is there to. (But landowners have been known to stretch the truth a bit...not that hunters ever do...Ha! I know he is just a 2.5 year old...but damn. Velvet makes them look bigger than they really are. This one would put my philosophy to the test. lol! Hey, never said I was perfect. And it isn't really a rule. Just a guideline. ;0)

Down here in my neck of the woods all the pressure is on the little 8 pointers...the 2.5 year old bucks. Everybody passes on the spikes and little forks and want to shoot a little racked buck. We are overrun with little bucks. My family eats four to five deer a year. I shoot the small bucks in the hopes that by letting the little seven and eight point two-year olds go, and if they make it through, they will really be something in that third and fourth year. And my philosophy seems to be paying off. I have a garage wall full of little 8 point racks. Just as soon shoot a spike or a four point now. That two year old is just one year away from really being something and he has proven survivor skills while that spike is two to three years away and he might not ever make it. Just my philosophy.

But if you know when the hot time is...the peak of the rut, it is the best time to maximize your time. Too many times down through the years I spent days in the stand, waiting for the rut to break...you can say it is still better than working...etc. Right? Wonderful to be in nature...And you never know. Lightning strikes. But I never have been very lucky. And that's OK. The only way I kill deer is by hard work and patience and figuring them out.

Thanks, but I don't know. The TV guys out in the Midwest with their farm raised bucks would probably yawn if they saw him. Here is a better picture. But not a bad buck at all for down here in Wellsville, right on the Pa. border. We have the genetics, but the bucks are hunted so hard here, few make it through unless they are very lucky and run into some crazy man like me that lets them walk as a decent 8 pointer.

Right, but if I see a small eight and a spike, I will shoot the spike every time. The amount of meat is about the same, but the eight is only a year away from being awesome, while the spike is probably a year or two away....just my thinking now.

Bucks in a bachelor group 8/12/15. Starting to pay off by passing on small eights with bow and gun. Many of them will get whacked of course, but that is OK. Makes some other hunter happy! But if they get through to become 3.5 year olds, then they become literally something to shoot for. The small eight gets a free pass this year. If I need the meat, I'll shoot a spike or a yearling or a small doe.

That has not been my experience and my data does not support the simple notion that the rut peaks every year at the same time. The peak of the rut, when all the bucks are on their feet in the daytime has up to a three week swing on our solar calendars.) Sometimes it happens in late October, and sometimes as late as the middle of November. I have been keeping a detailed log for about 20 years on it. I do not buy into the seeking, resting, chasing phase categories. The main point of determining the peak of the rut is figuring the best time to be on stand, when those big bucks are on their feet all day and all night running does, scrape lines and aggressive towards each other. It is easy to miss it by as much as a week or by thinking that it always peaks at the same time (on our calendars.) If we used a lunar calendar I could agree that it peaks at the same time each year.

He made it to a nine point all right!

Right on! Early rut this year. Things are going to be smokin' hot around Halloween, and on into early November. Should be a great season. I always have good luck when its an early rut.

I hunt with a compound bow now, though in the past I used a recurve and a long bow. I used to hunt with a shotgun, but now I use a rifle. I used to hunt with my flintlock, but now it is a scoped inline. I shoot the first lone doe I see during archery to get one in the freezer. Then as the rut starts to heat up, I do not want to screw up the rut dynamics so I hold off on my second doe and take her during rifle season. Usually I get a buck during bow season. So that is two in the freezer. Then I shoot a buck during rifle and a doe during rifle...so that is my normal four...and then I hunt the muzzleloader/bow late season and if I am lucky have five deer in the freezer. We rarely buy beef and have enough venison to make lots of jerky for the kids and grandkids and loins for great cookouts.

I built a .54 cal. flintlock from the CVA kit around 1978. And hunted with it many years in Pa. and NY in preference to shotguns. It did cost me a monster buck in a snowstorm once...but I always loved shooting it. (Clump of snow fell on the pan and frizzen.) Killed a 6 point at 165 yards with a 436 grain maxiball during shotgun season in NY. But had to use the patched ball in Pa. Shot a bear up in Northern Ontario with it back when we used to always go up there and bait bears in the spring, during the 1980s. After shooting the bear, I remember trying to reload and in my excitement poured so much black FFF powder on myself, I was almost afraid to touch off another shot. I'd catch on fire...lol.

You are lucky indeed to find a chicken-of-the-woods! They are delicious. I like them in casseroles with some special pastas. We are fortunate indeed to have many delectable fungi and mushrooms in Western NY. We start our with morels in gobbler season, and right on through into the fall with different flushes and varieties. Just remember the old expression, "There are old mushroom hunters and bold mushroom hunters, but no old, bold mushroom hunters." Bona petite!

After checking out the Mississippi AR regs...here is an interesting quote from the Mississippi DNR, "Research indicates the prior 4-point law allowed the harvest of better quality yearling bucks, while protecting older-aged spikes and 3-point bucks. The result has been a decrease in antler size within age classes of older bucks. The combination of the 4-point law, high hunting pressure, and lower reproduction results in the over-harvest of bucks and a decrease in antler size." Before New York institutes a statewide Buck Zone AR program based on counting points like in the existing NY AR DMU's and Pa., first, call into question the Mississippi biologists and their conclusion. Again, who is right and who is wrong? The last thing we need is an over-harvest of any age class of deer as was found in Mississippi, especially precipitated by a new experimental regulation. It would seem that there is enough significant disagreement among the AR game managers in New York, Pennsylvania, and Mississippi concerning which set of standards to use, counting points or spread that this question be also addressed.

Hang on...this thread is like a train, running down the tracks with no brakes...lol...talk about "derailed!" Antler points, spread, cutting up our own deer...whewwww. But just when you think that the whole AR thing could not get any weirder...or illogical, or nonsensical...you might not want to read further. Get a good sleep tonight. But for the bold: While checking out how AR is going in other states that jumped on the AR fad...Did you know that Missouri (where my son lives) is delisting or dropping all AR for the upcoming 2015 season? That's right Missouri's DNR is suspending AR for the upcoming deer season and the foreseeable future. Why is Missouri allowing all antlered bucks to be shot this season and now rejecting AR? Was it because they reached their senses? No. Was it because the rational sportsman's voice finally broke through the political/business fortress? No, no such luck. Strange as it may seem, Missouri is delisting AR zones to combat CWD. Yes, it is the truth, honest. I did not make this up. But this statewide anti-AR move brings up all kinds of questions, such as...if the Missouri DNR biologists believe that an effective way to combat CWD is to cancel AR, can we logically project the construct that states or Game Management programs that implement AR are fostering or at least supporting the possible spread of CWD in a whitetail population? Which biologists are right, Missouri's or NY's? I warned you it was getting weird and that is what you get for derailing the thread. lol http://www.missourinet.com/2015/06/16/missouri-conservation-extends-cwd-combat-zone-changes-regulations/

From what I've read, nobody really knows when whitetail antler growth stops. It is in part dependent upon photoperiodism and since the moon has an effect, antler growth would slow on different dates, depending on the year. But generally, between the end of July and the second week of August is about as close a consensus as I can find. Here is a photo of a buck I got on July 24th. Will he be a 9 pt.? Will the tip of his right beam turn into a crab claw? I don't have a photo of him since but at least on this specific buck it will be interesting to see how much growth occurs since July 24. Any guesses?

After mulling through the Pa. 2014 harvest report, I stumbled on an interesting statistic. One of the justifications...or stated reasons for mandatory Antler Restrictions is to "protect the yearling buck." But...these figures, taken from the Pa. 2014 harvest report (available online) show 47% of the bucks harvested last season under mandatory AR were 1.5 year olds. And 53% of the bucks were 2.5 and older. Surprise surprise....after checking last season's NY 2014 harvest report ....48% of the antler bucks harvested were 1.5 year olds (and that is with Voluntary AR...those of us passing on small bucks), 29% of the bucks in NY harvested last year were 2.5 and 23% were 3.5 and older. NY and Pa. harvested the same percent of yearling bucks...one state (Pa.) has mandatory AR and the other (NY) has voluntary AR. Those are the stats. My question is...if New York hunters shoot the same percentage of yearling bucks as Pa., how is mandatory AR's going to protect the yearling buck? Obviously, counting antler points as Pa. does (three on one side in most of the state and four on a side in the DMUs that are closer to Ohio,) is not any more effective in saving yearling bucks as no mandatory AR. So how is New York going to do any better at saving the yearling buck with their buck zones if forcing hunters to count points on a side is ineffective? The stats point out, that ARs are ineffective. Why do it at all?

When we talk about redundant systems, what we are really talking about is an overlay, or another layer or layers of systems on an already existing system. If there are 99 DMUs in NY, then if we add 7 more buck zones as another layer, of course it will cost more. Duh. And all statewide deer management systems are all about the overall herd management, not just bucks. It is simply naive to think otherwise, no matter how large the point size of the text or how loud we yell. Truth is not dependent upon how loud we shout out our opinions.

I could give the typical laundry list of reasons why I kill deer; meat, challenge, being in nature, deer camp, etc. But the real reason is no reason at all, it is an emotion, from my heart and soul... and not rational. I love it.