Buckstopshere

Here is the DMP harvest rate for the last 12 years. I probably could take a stab at calculating it for prior years...but it would take a long time to wade through all the reports down through the years I have saved. The success rate appears about the same...15 to 20%. NY Deer management permits and success % last 12 years .tiff

Well that really gets to the crux of the matter, doesn't it? Is there a correlation between big bucks entered in contests, record books, (basically in the public domain) and the current population of big bucks? Hard to argue that there is not a correlation because all the other factors...such as weather, hunting trends, the moon, etc. should all wash out when compared to other states. It just stands to reason that if all hunters on a given ridge or DMU in NY state all passed on spikes and fork horns, and held out for a decent six point or better, there would be fewer 2.5 year old deer in the population very soon. That is what everyone would be gunning for...just like today. I think that is where we are. We have lots of young bucks, and a few, very few older bucks...3.5 and better. As soon as the yearling crop hits 2.5, very few can get any further in age because all the pressure is on them. So in a way, antler restrictions is the worst thing for producing real trophy bucks. If half the hunters on the ridge settled for a big forky or a big spike, they would be out of the woods and leave the 2.5 to live another year and have a chance to be a real trophy, and not just another run of the mill 110 or 120 class buck. I know that it is a very new and unorthodox concept...going against the grain of most contemporary deer managers. But it just makes sense to hardheaded me.

That is good speculation, but I like to see the numbers. How much winter kill and where this year, or any in NY state? (I saw the well-done video clip of the winter kill near Syracuse.) As tragic as it was on an individual level, purely anecdotal on a statewide scale. The winter-kill data should be compiled by the state (maybe it is, maybe someone knows of how to access it if it does exist.) Or maybe it is so small on a statewide statistical level, it is not relevant. But for continuing speculation: If deer can get through the coldest winter ever (here in Western NY) and thrive as they have here in Western NY, then perhaps the basis of the original premise finds it a bit fanciful (i.e fewer does would produce just as many deer (maybe) and certainly healthier deer than... more does would.) Interesting thought, but not close enough to reality to really be concerned with. Prove me wrong. Show me the statewide winter-kill numbers, EHD or Blue tongue...stats or what they have diagnosed as having similar forensics...and they aren't sure really sure about all the factors creating the Midwestern Deer Dieoff. I think it is pretty simple...being a simple kind of guy...Too many doe permits and the mentality that we can't shoot enough does to bring the whitetail population into "balance."

My favorite book, about bowhunting whitetails is Roger Rothhaar's "Whitetail Magic."

Here is the historical data for NY state, at least the gross calculated harvest numbers. I think it should be required reading for anyone who wants to argue about "the good old days of deer hunting in NY state." The good old days for the average deer hunter in NY state is now. NY York deer history.pdf

Right. It is a good, interesting and fun way to chronicle individual bucks too. But they never (rarely) make it past 2.5 years.

I gave the NY DEC high marks in their deer management after an analysis of the 2014 report compared to other states in this column...on one metric and one metric alone...that is the relative drop in deer take. Some other top deer states are in the throws of a modern whitetail apocalypse compared to N.Y.'s relative balance year to year. Now I know, there was a recent article saying New York is the worst state to deer hunt in...I beg to differ, if you are the average hunter. We have it good and I hope they do not screw it up like the game departments have in the other compared states! http://www.wellsvilledaily.com/article/20150427/SPORTS/150429708/2000/NEWS

Here's a closeup, taken Wednesday (5/6/15) near Wellsville.

Some parts tough to watch, but well done video, showing a tragic side of nature. Thanks for sharing.

My first bow back in 1971, killed my first 8 pt. was a Bear Kodiak recurve, but by 1980 it was a Howard Hill custom bamboo longbow. Many deer fell to those two bows through those decades. In 1996, after buying compounds for my boys, I got one for myself...and what a lethal treestand hunting machine. Last week I picked up my newest bow, a Bowtech Carbon Icon. Can't wait to test it this year. So light, so fast and so quiet! Favorite...? Bows are like kids, or dogs, no favorites, all different. The new Carbon Icon only weighs 3.5 pounds (bare.) It is so light, I am going to go back to my old still hunting days when I killed all my deer with the recurve and the longbow, including two 135 class bucks.

Not surprising with all the pressure on those 100 to 120 class 8 pts. Only to be expected. As the yearling buck take goes down, the pressure and the take increases on the 2.5 and 3.5 year olds resulting in fewer mature bucks that would make it into the books if they just had one more year on the ground.

Very comprehensive report. Sure a far cry from the old ones 30 years ago. One thing lacking was a cover letter or a written summary, kind of an overview. A statistic that jumped out at first glance was the dropoff of yearling bucks harvested compared to 2.5 and 3.5 aged bucks, showing a significant amount of voluntary AR, and pointing out once again the obvious conclusion, we do not need mandatory AR because as hunters an ever increasing percent are passing bucks out of choice and holding out for a bigger buck.

What most do not realize or remember that in Pa., when they instituted the AR experiment back in 2003, there was another study that was the driving force. It is called: "The Pennsylvania Regeneration Study," (PRS) a forestry study that one would have to say was the real reason for AR's, not buck density, herd health, bigger racks, etc. as hunter's were told. The first sentence of the PRS is: "Pennsylvania’s forests have long been plagued with tree regeneration challenges due to many factors, the most significant of which has been deer browsing." While some might believe that herd reduction is an unfortuate and unforeseen consequence of antler restrictions, one does not have to be too much of a conspiracy theorist to connect the dots. 2+2 = 4. Hunters have been sold a new math. Antler Restrictions and the PRS walk hand-in-hand. Deer are considered a plague...that is their words. And that is why there has been a 40% drop in hunter success in the last 15 years. The Pa. Game Commission along with the USDA Forestry Service are reducing the deer herd in Pa. to ridiculous levels, and sold to hunters as "improving" the herd. But you have to hand it to them, the AR story is a wonderful PR victory. Sometimes I feel like that little dog "toto" in the Wizard of Oz that pulled the curtain back and exposed the man, pulling the levers and pushing the switches. And by the way, in Unit 3A in Pa. (WMU south of Allegany County NY where I hunted for 40 years) the Antlerless Permit for this year was increased by 1,000. The timber industry does not want deer,... any deer and consider hunters a pest at the best and at the worst, the enemy, that needs to be delt with in a sophisticated, political, sociological, touchy-feely way.

There are no scientific measurements that I am aware of that validate when an AR program is implemented, the deer are bigger. If you are saying that the bucks are older and therefore larger, because older deer at 3.5 years old weigh more than a 1.5 year old buck, that makes sense. That is true any place whether there is AR or not. But the proponents of the Pa. AR system are saying that the deer are bigger, magically. Where is the logic for that sentiment? Do they mean that now in Pa. there are fewer whitetails, so the surviving population eats more so those individuals swell up? I think a lot of hunters on the fence on the AR issue take those kind of statements as gospel, swallowing them hook, line, and sinker and trusting the AR sources when a bit of objective reflection shows us how nonsensical those types of statements really are. So when the AR advocates in the upcoming NY meetings say, "If we have AR in NY the deer will be bigger." Someone can ask for the proof and the data to support the nonsensical assertion.

Nobody is challenging me on the numbers, yet, though I have hand some pretty heated ad hominem attacks since the article appeared. I expect that from those that drink the AR koolaid as a panacea for getting a big buck. Another aspect I didn't mention was the crock, the worn out mantra of "back in the day in Pa. when the Commonwealth was overrun with deer, they were tiny...like rabbits. And then we had AR and now we have bigger deer. What a bunch of...road apples. For the last 30 years the Potter County Enterprise puts out an interesting edition. It is their big buck special. And in it are a lot of bucks, of all sizes, shot in the Coudersport area. I look forward to it each year...and surprisingly, the winner of the big buck contest is no bigger than that of 10, 20 or even 30 years previous. The only change is that there are fewer bucks entered. And that is a shame. Change to ARs makes deer bigger... lol. What a crock! Bad science. about like the fetal measurements on timing the rut. And since when is "herd balance" (as if it could ever be attained by the average hunter/landowner) really only more than an abstract notion.

I knew I would ruffle a lot of feathers when I wrote the column, but the 40% drop in Pa. take in the last 13 years translates to me simply how many fewer hunters are successful now in Pa., each year and what a tragedy that is. 50,000 fewer hunters each year get a deer in Pa. now. Somebody has to have the guts to say that the emperor is not wearing any clothes. The Pa. experiment has been a disaster for the average deer hunter, not so though for the landed gent with umpteen acres, food plots out the wazoo to hold deer....We can talk about antler size, and body size, and quality of the experience all we want...bottom line is that it is a 40% drop since Alt et al figured out a way to sell whitetail herd reduction to the masses and have them drink the AR kool aid. And I wanted to give us Empire State hunters a heads-up as we go into the deer meetings this year to decide on how AR for NY will unfold for ours and our youth's future hunts.

Awesome! Love those stickers!

This buck is posing for a mount after hitting the zip-tied overhanging branch. Next year I will oblige him if he makes it through.

By moving zip-tied Overhanging Branches (trading them from one area to another)...seems to stimulate the bucks to scrape. I'm getting multiple bucks at each scrape site. But I have been fooling around with moving branches for over a month now. A couple of my sites have quite a bouquet.

I appreciate seeing awesome bucks, and understand the risks, thanks! ..as I seem to say a lot this time of year, "Hunting brings out the best, and brings out the worst."

Whoaaaa! What an 8! Hope you get him.

So many choices!!! I will be after this guy...I was only 200 yards away in another stand this morning...but if that broken brow eight gives me a chance...I'll have to leave the 10 for gun season or somebody else. The time of year we live for! Southern Allegany County...private hunting, voluntary ARs. The eight point keeps coming in to a different zip-tied overhanging branch...here he is a couple days ago. He's a big one for our neck of the woods.

Seems like a lot of folks think that the moon and moon phases are a mysterious thing that have no correlation to the study of photoperiodism. But "the moon" is simply reflected sunlight and the bright and dark of the moon fine-tune the photoperiodic effect. The moon (reflected sunlight) effects many critters besides cervids (deer.) Grunions (a little fish) come up on the California beaches on the full moon, as do some species of salt water turtles, not to mention smallmouth bass. No matter when the full moon hits in May, smallies are up on the shoals during the full moon. Photoperiodism, fine-tuned by moonlight. The light triggers the suprachiasmatic nucleus in the pineal gland though the optic nerve, releasing melatonin, among other pheromones that effect behavior.

Nice 10 pt. (like the stickers) early this am at the zip-tied overhanging branch...he was one of five bucks (spikes and forks) that hit it this am. Sorry for the poor quality, but there was a dense fog this am here. Later it cleared and a small eight pt. came in.

Hi Doc: I think they say that "climbing up the fear ladder," and in your case it is literal, goes a long way towards beating your phobia of heights. Keep doing it and after awhile you'll go up the ladder like a squirrel!