Caveman

There's that and the fact that anyone who knows anything about basic social research can poke a million and a half hole in the statistics they spout all over. It honestly was embarrassing because these stats were so critically flawed and people assumed as a member that I bought into them.

Here's my issue Doc. They have been hurling acorns at me and claiming it's the sky falling for so long if the sky really did fall I wouldn't believe them anymore. I was a member for 2 years and in that time I got one notice to write my congressman, at the same time every two weeks like clockwork they sent me a letter telling me "your rights are under attack! (We can't tell you how) but send us money right away!" I paraphrased of course lol. But then I turn on versus and Wayne Lapierre isn't in Washington fighting this grand urgent battle that was described in the letter on my coffee table, he's hunting Cape Buffalo in Africa! It's easy to be annoyed and that's why I'm keeping my money now.

So, you just gave me your interpretation on the constitution.. another liberal move...and your take on abortion is just sick... so far the courts have had the chance to legalize gay marraige and have decided in most cases not to... usually because of pressure from referendum results by a majority of the people... the other reason is because we have laws in place against it.. just like we have laws against pedifiles..who are american citizens and pursue happiness by preying on little kids... using your defence would say that poligamy should be legal... that if a citizen gets a kick out of farm animals he should be able to purue his happiness by marrying a goat.. and even though the goat is not a citizen the man should be entitles to that liberty... the key to that amendment is "due process of law".. the law is at this point in time for most place.. NO GAY MARRAIGE. and even if it wasn't.. can't stop a persons opinion on the subject. Your analogy between a gay person and a pedophile is misguided and frankly wrong. The crucial difference is the presence of a second consenting adult. In Lawrence v. Texas in 2003 the Supreme court struck down a statute in Texas which criminalized sodomy, both homo and heterosexual) even in the privacy of one's home. Now to take a strict originalist point of view you would make the argument that people should not be allowed to engage in the sexual conduct of their choice. That includes you and your wife not just gays. Is that your opinion? The government can tell you what kind of sex to have. Why should the government have any say in the private lives of citizens. Who decided your views on morality are correct and everyone should behave accordingly? As for due process of law, that has been violated the entire time. Using the level of review known as strict scrutiny the government must demonstrate, when violating a constitutional right, that they have an overriding interest which trumps civil liberty, that the scope of their infraction on your rights is narrow, and that the means they employ is the least invasive means to do so. Where has the government ever demonstrated an overriding state interest which justifies the denial of rights and privileges to gays and lesbians? If anti gay marriage legislation was brought before a court with an interest in upholding the laws of the US it would be repealed. As for abortion, most abortions are selected by the young and the poor. So to outlaw it is to tell a person your child must be born into poverty. That child will most lieky never make anything of himself because of the disparity in public education between the rich and poor, and that child will grow up feeding off your tax dollars. Or a teenager gets pregnant. You tell her no abortion. You have now set her up for a life of poverty as getting an education with a child is not an easy feat. Now not only have you condemned the mother to a lesser standard of living you have also condemned the child. Obviously this is not all cases but an overwhelming number of cases.

I won't try and convince you about anything I'll just give you some food for thought. Keep in mind that the information about legislation you're getting is coming from a group that wants you to feel a very particular way about said legislation. If you have time and want an objective idea, read the actual bill. But that's the difference between you and me I think. I look at something and critically examine it, it's source, and the circumstances under which it was written. You take things at face value. That may work for you but it's something to think about. As for my alleged fence riding...the reason things don't get done is because no one in either party is willing to compromise. Nothing gets done when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. You and I talked about marriage in today's world on another thread. Imagine a marriage without compromise where your wife wanted one thing and you wanted another and neither of you ever budged. I doubt that marriage would last.

Well I've spent a lot of time on this thread and now when I was at class three more pages popped up so for the sake of saving myself some time for my procedural law paper I'll make two last comments and bow out. 1) No two people on this site are going to have the same opinions on every issue. That's fine. That's the way it's supposed to be. However, we can all express our different views without resorting to petty insults, name calling, or references to people's personal lives i.e. education, age, etc. In my view if you have an opinion but cannot express it in an intelligent, meaningful, and respectful manner...please keep it to yourself. 2) The bottom line for my argument is that one cannot live in a country they consider free, be proud of that freedom, call themselves an American, and yet advocate for the exclusion, exile, or persecution of an entire people based on their faith. That is not what this country was based on. Everyone will have an opinion about these people, however, to call for political action against them is hypocritical at best. Thanks guys and have a good one (even you damn conservatives ) Any responses please PM them so I can keep up in the midst of school, work, and volunteer activities.

What planet are you from? Were you dropped on your head when you were a kid. Does moron ring a bell.Dave You proved something with that response. I'm no longer going to give your posts the dignity of an intelligent response.

And in the American south men don white hoods and hang black men for being black...what does that tell you? Terrorism is a subjective term and one attempted definition is just as arbitrary as the next. THere's a famous quote, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. That doesn't justify terrorism, but we can't really understand something until we look at it from another perspective. "They attacked us" That's a mature way to look at it. Yes, they attacked us. They also attacked a military installation. We firebombed Tokyo, burned the city to the ground and killed hundreds of thousands, then we dropped two nukes. On innocent civilians. Children, women, the elderly, our hands aren't clean. You're living in a glass house, I'd suggest putting your rocks down.

Spoken like a true liberal.. oops sorry I mean fence rider Careful who you classify, I'm not fence rider. As stated in the other post, libertarian, the only party that honestly gives a crap about freedom.

NY Antler, the separation of church and state has been incorporated into the 1st amendment by the supreme court of the united states, a respected institution. And prayer has no place in public schools because a public school is a secular establishment. If a group of students want to form a prayer group after school that's fine, starting the day with Christian prayers is another story. Freedom to choose is does mean terminating an unwanted pregnancy, you're correct. However ask yourself, "would the children be better off being born into the life they are set up for?" Believe it or not abortion has actually benefited us by lowering the number of people living in poverty. The constitution makes no mention of gay marriage? Not word for word. However, the 14th amendment does state, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Since when are gays not born and naturalized in the united states? That's the only instance that they may e denied the privileges and rights you all hold so dear. And just to set the record straight I don't ride the fence at all, I'm a libertarian.

Who's dying in America? There was a terrible attack ten years ago. Nothing since. The US committed acts of terrorism against Japan in WWII, do they exile Americans? No. You're an ignorant man and it's unfortunate because the reason your party is losing popularity in this country is because of hypocritical attitudes like that.

Listen to what you're saying, you're not clamoring for liberty. You're advocating for exile for a group of people based on nothing but their faith. How many Christians have killed in the name of God? Just as many as the Muslims. You want liberty, but only for those who agree with you and that is what makes me ashamed. I'm glad ignorant people such as yourself are a dying breed in this country.

Ok I'll talk to a doctor about my blindness. Hey! I'll use the money I saved by not believing every piece of propaganda that the fear-mongers try to shove down my throat!

Where in the Libertarian platform do they advocate for welfare? Quite the opposite, they are opposed to it, and opposed to taxation in much the same way that a conservative would be. Take a trip to LP.org, even through a skeptic's eyes you might be surprised what you didn't know. And would you mind telling me how abortion effects you? (Serious question)

Now you are generalizing to say that all Muslims are blood thirsty killers, MR VJP. Which is the problem in the first place, closed-mindedness. They have the right to practice their religion here just as much as you have the right to go to church on Sundays. But conservatives forget that because if you're not an old, straight, white, Christian man you don't deserve to live in this country. Mr VJP in the NRA thread you often said that if you're a gun owner who doesn't belong to the NRA you're nothing. Well the same applies here, if you're an American who doesn't want others to be able to enjoy the same freedom you have, you're nothing. You're a hypocrite and speaking bluntly, this country ought to be ashamed of people like you.

Ok chicken little, if you honestly believe that gun rights are at stake, continue sending your money. I however, am going to think for myself and hang on to my cash. I guess this is one topic we'll have to agree to disagree on. I'll never convince you to have a critical, free thought, and you'll never convince me to blindly follow the leader.

A lot to learn about what? Free thought? Realism? I'm work too hard for my money to send it away to some lobbyist in Washington to defend a right that's not going anywhere in the first place. When someone tells me the sky is falling and says he needs my money to continue holding it up, you bet your a** I'm looking upwards before I hand over my dough.

erussel, I agree a true democracy would not be feasible. I'm not a Democrat. I am a libertarian, but I disagree that they advocate anarchy. Anarchy is the belief that society can function without government. We believe that government is necessary but in as small a role as possible. I don't see what's misguided about believing that each man should be free to live his own life in whatever way he pleases provided it does not infringe on another man's rights. And I'm not sure how one could argue that education is a bad thing. Mind explaining that one?

The problem with that reasoning is that the founding fathers could not have ever predicted the problems our society is faced with in today's age and therefore could not have incorporated solutions into the document. If you want to read everything literally then our conversation here should be subject to government censorship since the 1st amendment makes no mention of internet dealings. And the emails you send to people should be subject to warrantless seizure since people only have a right to be secure in their homes and places of business. See where I'm going with this?

Does a conservative really want freedom though? In my experience, a conservative wants everyone to adopt his values and live in accordance with them. If people were interested in true FREEDOM they'd be libertarians. As for the idea of change. I'll agree that there is value in respecting tradition, however the world is changing and whether we like it or not globalization is happening all over the world. If we choose to remain stuck in the past this country will be left behind. Change (not radical change but some change) is something we need to embrace if we want to remain a world power.

Generally speaking a conservative is against gay marriage, freedom of choice, freedom of religion, and a separation of church and state. (Last one's not a constitutional right but rather a Supreme Ct. interpretation of the first amendment) i suppose that is what I meant.

It's disgusting that an "American" would speak out against any religion. Hypocrites, every one of them. This is in response to the general attitude on the topic in this country, not the video.

As for Mr. VJP, I'm really surprised that they don't solicit you for money. What plan are you on because they stick their hands out to me more than democrats? I'm not going to spend my life running in circles panicking that the sky is falling. The 2nd amendment isn't going to be repealed any time soon. Nor would it have ever been. I'm not sure you realize just what it takes to amend the constitution. The only benefit the NRA has for us is that it gives the gun owning community the chance to put a number in front of people as far as just how many of us there are out there. If they really cared about our rights they'd volunteer their time though and not charge dues. As for them not making money guess where the money came from for Wayne LaPierre's last safari?

Ok, what's going on that I am not aware of? And I'm not being sarcastic, I'm simply asking.

You say the NRA sends you information to keep you informed on the issues...I think it's to keep you scared so you'll keep sending them money. The NRA is a business first and foremost and they make a very good profit. It's like a labor union. They exploit the little guy who honestly thinks he's being helped while the fat cats who run the organization sit back and line their pockets.

Here's my take. Neither party; Democrat or Republican, liberal or conservative, has it completely correct. All of us can learn from the other side. If this country was run exactly the way any one person or group wants it, it would fail. I am in favor of running this country in accordance with the constitution. However, the idea that the constitution is dead as justice Scalia (whom I respect and admire) put it, is nonsense. I don't want to give my hard earned money to anyone who didn't earn it any more than the next person as the liberals/democrats would have me do. However at the same time I don't want to deny any group or person their constitutional rights as the conservatives would have us do. This is what I mean when I say I don't like political parties. Both groups have certain things right, and both have things wrong. No one has the complete answer but people get so caught up in the competition between left and right that they forget that at the end of the day we're all still Americans and that needs to be the strongest group alliance of all.