[AR10 308 - would you be satisfied?]

11 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

If you think sub-MOA is good for an AR, and that they wont hang with a bolt gun, then sorry, but you have no clue about AR platform rifles.

I've shot plenty of AR type rifles, so I definitely have a "clue."

Some of the better ones can hit sub-MOA performance.  Others can't.

Same applies for bolt guns.

The difference is that it is a lot easier, and cheaper, to consistently wring sub-MOA performance out of a bolt gun.

[Bear Calling in the Northern Zone]

Yeah the bear up there seem hard to come by.  I have no problem finding them out of season (driving, hiking, camping).  But when the fall rolls around, they become ghosts.

 

I've tried identifying travel corridors and food sources, but I find those can change somewhat from year to year, and you could spend days sitting out in an area and not see a single thing.  That's why the calling tactic has my interest.  The trick is to find an area where I can sit and have a good 360 view of all the approaches; the bear tend to move quietly and the last thing I want is for one to creep up behind me with a curious interest. 

 

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who consistently bear hunts up there.  The success rate in the Northern Zone isn't that high according to the DEC.  For that kind of terrain in other states, baiting and hounding seem to be the preferred methods for hunting bear (the reasons for that become increasingly clear to me as I spend more time hunting up in the big woods).  I'd like to know if anyone here has regular success up there, and if so what their tactics are.

[AR10 308 - would you be satisfied?]

On 6/2/2018 at 2:31 PM, Jdubs said:

Anything in the 1-1.5" range and I'd be very happy with that particular setup.  As you said, it's for hunting not precision shooting.  

I agree with the above.  Your groups don't look to be sub MOA, but anything within the 1"-2" realm @ 100 yards is decent enough for a semi-auto rifle.  I'm sure there are semi-auto's that can provide even more accuracy, for a much higher price point.  If the nth degree accuracy is really what you're after (Sub MOA to .5 MOA) your money will be better spent on a bolt gun.

 

Also, ammo plays a huge role  in all of this.  What load were you shooting?  I can see quite a variation in my groups (.308 FN SPR) depending upon the ammo I'm using.

[Loooong range shooting help.]

Also, if you really want to get into the thick of Long Range shooting, go check out Curt Drewel at Long Gun Training: Long Gun Training.

 

Former USMC Scout Sniper.  He teaches courses to civilians and LEO's.  His courses cost a bit, but they are well worth it considering the instruction you are getting.   I've taken 2 of his courses.  They are on par with military-type courses, better in some regards, and the man himself is very approachable and always willing to share his knowledge with newcomers.  

[Loooong range shooting help.]

21 hours ago, Gencountyzeek said:

Ok, i recived my new burris veracity

3-15x50. Zeroed at 200 yards. Set the turret to 0. I have 96 clicks of elevation left. O I should say its sitting in a warne mount with 20moa built in. Im putting a table together that takes me out to 1000 yards. The scope is 1/4 moa per click. If i did my math right im looking at 12 clicks up at 300 yards 9 in of drop, 26 clicks up at 400 26 in of drop, 43 clicks at 500 53in of drop, 60 at 600 90in of drop, 80 at 700 139in of drop, 101 at 800 203in of drop, 127 at 900 285in of drop and 155 at 1000 388in of drop... for the experts out there, am i pretty much maxed out at 750 yards with this setup? As far as clicks go...i can always use the reticle for more elevation. I was hoping to not have to do that. So to recap... if 1/4moa click @1000 yards= roughly 2.5", then 388÷2.5= 155 clicks up of elevation... is this right?

Nice-looking rifle.

I have no idea if your math is right as it depends on the load, barrel twist and even preferences of a particular rifle.

 

You can estimate the elevation adjustment needed to get yourself on target at various ranges (which you seemed to have done).  Find the exact load you want to shoot, read the manufacturers' estimated DOPE (data off previous engagement) and/or use a ballistic program to get an estimation of the adjustment needed for various ranges.

 

From experience I've gained, you will actually need to do some shooting at those ranges in order to actually validate and confirm that DOPE.  In many cases, the actual turret adjustment needed to hit a target at a given range will vary somewhat form the manufacturer's recommendations.  Load, elevation, temperature, wind, elevation, twist rate, and the rifle's own quirks (to name a few variables) will all have some influence on a bullet's ballistics.  The best thing you can do is get out to a range and do some shooting...

[Pistol cartridge for Black Bear]

5 minutes ago, turkeyfeathers said:

Can dumb down a 44 with 45 long colt ? 

I believe so, but the downloaded variant of .357 Magnum (.38 special) seems so much more common and cheaper to deal with.

[Pistol cartridge for Black Bear]

17 hours ago, Rack Attack said:

My vote would be for the 44 or better yet a 460.

.44 Mag just seems like an overkill for my uses.  I'll mostly be dealing with deer, maybe the occasional black bear.

 

Plus heavier platforms, more expensive ammo, can't down-load and practice with a cheaper round like I can with .357 Mag.  

[Pistol cartridge for Black Bear]

38 minutes ago, Salmon_Run said:

I utilize my retired duty weapon of a Ruger "security six" .357 with a chest holster as my revolver of choice.

I have .40, .45 and a 9mm pistols but like the weight of the revolver and choices of ammo available for purchase. There are lots of round choices and even # 4 shot on the market if one chooses. I carry it trapping and fishing with the chest holster and it's never in the way of pack or belt straps and readily available if needed.

Just my .02 cents worth.....

I am of a similar mindset.  The magnum cartridges seem much more flexible; it's easier to find dedicated hunting loads.  Whereas the traditional self-defense cartridges seem more focused on, well, self-defense....not that you can't find any hunting loads.

 

33 minutes ago, rob-c said:

I just went and checked out the smith, that is a nice revolver. If you do get it post up some photos.. 

Will do.

[Pistol cartridge for Black Bear]

5 hours ago, rob-c said:

Just remember the lighter the gun the more recoil your going to get, especially with hot loads .. 

It still comes in at 34-35oz, only 3-4oz less than the all steel framed 5" 686.  

 

There might be a little bit more felt recoil, but not much.  It's a balancing act between having a portable weapon and having enough mass to tame the recoil.  

[Pistol cartridge for Black Bear]

1 hour ago, turkeyfeathers said:

Trr8. Not sure that one is legal to hunt with the capacity May need a duck plug 

I don't think that magazine restriction applies to the TRR8 as it is a revolver, not an auto-loading firearm, and its barrel is less than 8".

[Pistol cartridge for Black Bear]

On 3/21/2018 at 6:28 AM, rob-c said:

I still vote for 357 and a heavy bullet.. 

After a lot of consideration, I'm leaning this way too.

10mm seems to offer slightly heavier bullet options, but .357 offers loads with somewhat higher energy figures and as well the bullets, though a little bit smaller in diameter and lighter in weight, offer somewhat better sectional density.

I really like some of the newer 10mm platforms that are coming onto the market.  The new 1911 offerings in particular have caught my eye.  But:

-10mm is somewhat more expensive and not as common.

-I've heard of reliability issues with some 10mm platforms (especially with the hotter hunting loads).

-10mm platforms, at least the newer ones, seem more expensive compared .357 revolvers, perhaps excluding the Glock which I have absolutely zero interest in.

 

I've heavily considered a semi-light .357 platform like the S&W TRR8: 8 shot capacity, scandium frame to help keep the weight down, decent ergonomics and sights.  I think it's based on the S&W 327 platform, but with a longer 5" barrel.  Anyone have experience with that revolver?

I think 10mm and .357 offer performance capabilities that are roughly in the same ballpark; either one should get the job done.  I just think the logistics and flexibility of a traditional .357 revolver make more sense for my intended uses.

[Bear Calling in the Northern Zone]

I've read that.  Thanks.

[Bear Calling in the Northern Zone]

Also, just to clarify my original post: Does anyone here actually use calls when hunting bear in the Northen Zone?

 

I'd be interested in tagging along or meeting up just to observe another hunter's setup.  Finding bear, during the season, in the ADK's is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

[Bear Calling in the Northern Zone]

8 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Scent is allowed. Honey burs are legal. You aren't setting it out to feed becasue it is being burned. the attractant is the sicky sweet smell of the burning honey. I think it is like a ounce and a half you can use. It's in the regs. 

Thanks for the clarification.  I thought I had seen an article recently where it was said the DEC was about to, or at least was considering, banning the use of attractants for bear.  Maybe I'm getting my wires crossed.

Anyhow the exact language is here:

 

Quote

Big game may be taken with centerfire rifles, shotguns, handguns, muzzleloading firearms, bows, and crossbows during appropriate seasons and in areas designated (see maps, pages 24 and 25). You may use decoys, calls and attractant scents to hunt big game. It is unlawful to:

Make, set or use salt licks or other attractants, whether block, liquid or powder that contains ANY amount of salt, upon lands inhabited by deer or bear at any time of year.

So it seems attractants are allowed, though you can't use any solids, liquids or powers containing salt.

 

Also, I really like your Margaret Thatcher quote in your signature.  

[Bear Calling in the Northern Zone]

21 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I would think that any distressed animal call would fit the bill. Like the ones used in Yote hunting. I would also consider using a honey burn. 

Is that legal?  I thought using bait or attractants of any sort was not allowed in NY.

[Bear Calling in the Northern Zone]

Were you using a particular call?

[Bear Calling in the Northern Zone]

Anyone here ever tried calling for black bear in the northern zone of NY (mostly referring to Tug Hill and the ADK's)?

 

I've heard that in certain areas which have similar vegetation and terrain to NY (western Oregon and Washington) calling black bear is a tactic used by some hunters, as traditional spot-and-stalk hunts aren't really feasible and baiting and hounding aren't allowed.

 

I was thinking of trying some calling this coming fall.  I'd be interested in talking to anyone else who has tried this method.

[Big Woods Coyote hunting]

Coyote are certainly up there, but I think they have a better chance of finding you than you do of finding them.

It's rugged terrain and the food sources are spread out.  You can try predator calling, but even if they respond, you're going to have a tough time sighting them for a shot.

 

IMO, you'll have much more success hunting in the farm country south of the ADK's.

[Pistol cartridge for Black Bear]

357 -  678 foot lbs 
10mm - 635 and 705 foot lbs 
41 mag - 1016 foot lbs 

There are buffalo bore .357 loads producing 780-800 foot lbs (according to the website).

Does 10mm have something comparable?


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[Pistol cartridge for Black Bear]

Padre 86 were do u live one of  us guys might  be close enough to let you shoot one of our 357,44 or 10mm’s

Rochester area. I checked out the firing pin range but they don’t seem to have too much in the way of magnum cartridges.


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[Pistol cartridge for Black Bear]

10mm and .357 are almost exactly the same energy wise except the 10mm is .40 caliber vs .38. I would go with something big enough to take down a bear but still able to get multiple rounds out of the gun accurately because you won't always hit on the 1st shot when in a life or death situation. I would recommend either the 10mm or .357. I like pistols so I personally would opt for the 10mm.

 

Yes, on average .357 seems to throw slightly smaller projectiles but at a faster velocity and higher energy; I think the hunting rounds can peak at 750 to 800 lb ft.

 

10mm is capable of throwing heavier grain bullets, though the hunting rounds I’ve seen suggested so far seem to be par with the .357 and the energy delivery is a little bit lower.

 

Honestly both of them seem similar enough that they can accomplish the same task. I prefer the manual of arms of a da/sa revolver over that of a glock 20; if I can find a 10mm platform that I like, I will look heavily at the 10mm as well.

 

 

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[Pistol cartridge for Black Bear]

I’m leaning towards a .357 mag right now. If I can find a place to rent a .44 mag and 10mm I might consider those options as well.

Unfortunately I don’t know of any ranges that rent hand guns in those calibers.

If I end up with a buy I’ll post pictures.



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[Pistol cartridge for Black Bear]

I have used most all of them for that purpose at one time or another. Keep in mind any cartridge/handgun barrel length for dispatching game must be legal for hunting with, even if just for dispatching,  For dispatching, I am assuming an animal that is down, and you are just planning on finishing it off. anything from a .38 special with wadcutters up will do. I have always just walked around behind it and shot it at the base of the skull. The problem with larger calibers/ magnums, is shooting near the ground and close up to an animal you get ALOT of ground blast back at you, with the potential, if you aren't careful, very messily blowing the had apart.  A very long time ago I came to the conclusion it was much easier, efficient and practical to just finish off with my rifle. After going through this phase, so will you. 

 

 

 Dave this is wounded game tracking not hunting. Any barrel length restrictions for handgun hunting does not apply to this activity as per the license I received. Even so, I think pistols can’t have a barrel length any longer than 16”; I’ve no intent of carrying a pistol anywhere close to that size. 

 

I do not think this will be a phase for me. I’ve enough experience hauling around a long gun while pushing through thorn brush, following my dog.... a hand gun makes sense for certain situations and many ny trackers use them for that reason.

 

I think there is a good balance to be found between firing a point blank and potentially dangerous shot and attempting a longer less accurate shot.

 

 And 38 special would likely be less than optimal for my purposes; I’ve discussed the nature of dispatching wounded game in previous posts.

 

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[Pistol cartridge for Black Bear]

Storm, it’s an ‘either/or’ sort of thing. Either I’m carrying the pistol because I believe the animal is seriously wounded, or I am bringing a long gun because I believe the animal’s wound is marginal.

 

Between handling the dog, looking for sign and navigating the terrain, I’m not going to burden myself with 2 firearms, especially if I’m going to be helping the hunter carry the animal out after all is done.

 

The condition of the animals in these tracks is never certain. If I’m bringing a pistol in place of a rifle, I still need serious kinetic energy and penetration to put down an animal that turns out to be far more healthy than I had anticipated.

 

And even if a black bear is seriously wounded, I would not be inclined to walk right up to it for a point blank shot with .22lr.

 

Carrying a powerful pistol is a very common technique for leashed dog handlers. The recovery often takes place in very challenging terrain; lightening the handler’s burden allows him/her to be more nimble and stay focused on the dog and the track.

 

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[Pistol cartridge for Black Bear]

Why if I have a rifle do I need a sidearm besides a knife 
To me it' just exstra weight I rather not carry around.
But if I just had a pistol cartridge it would be  ,357 mag and up for a bear 

As I said earlier, I want the option of a pistol. I’ll always consider a rifle or shotgun based on my assessment of the hunter’s shot. If there is a strong possibility the animal is seriously wounded, the portability of a pistol makes sense over lugging around a long gun.


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