Sportsmen Strongly Support DEC adoption of Yearling Buck Protection

[TheHunter]

Just had this sent over to me...

Sportsmen announced today that they strongly support the expansion of Yearling Buck Protection for the 2012 season recently announced by the Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC). The adopted hunting changes will expand the existing Yearling Buck Protection with Antler Restrictions (AR) to seven additional Wildlife Management Units (WMUs).

David Hartman, President of New York State Whitetail Management Coalition (NYSWMC), stated, “We commend Commissioner Martens and the DEC staff for modernizing and improving deer management with the expansion of Yearling Buck Protection with Antler Restrictions into seven additional Wildlife Management Units (WMUs). We thank all our representatives inAlbany and the sportsmen for working together to adopt this modernization of deer management in New York. We hope that New Yorkers in the rest of the state will soon be able to benefit from this program.”

Joe Montalbano, from Ulster County, remarked, “We have really seen excellent results in our area. It used to be that a fork horn was the normal buck but now with antler restrictions the new normal buck is an 8 pointer. I have to admit when Antler Restrictions were proposed in 2004 I strongly opposed them at our federation meetings. To anyone that is opposed to it now I would say, Go for it 100%- it really works! Our club, Marbletown Sportsmen, for the first time in its 62 year history has harvested an 11 point buck and other clubs are having the same success”.

The majority of hunters in New York support Yearling Buck Protection with Antler Restrictions according to 2005 and 2010 Cornell Surveys commissioned by the DEC. And one need only look at the 2011 NYS Hunting Guide to see what the DEC is promising and marketing to hunters; adult bucks. Current management with the size limit from 1911 of one three inch antler results in most bucks in NY being harvested as immature juveniles before they can reach adulthood.

Bill Willis, of Delaware County Economic Development, points out, “As a result most NY deer hunters are dissatisfied with their buck hunting and this is clearly shown in the fact that NY is losing two hunters for every new hunter recruited. This will have large economic impacts to NY. NY deer hunters contribute over seven hundred million dollars to the economy and their license fees and excise taxes contribute million of dollars to fund NY state wildlife programs.”

Jay Martin, Big Game Chairman, Federated Sportsmen’s Clubs of Ulster County, remarked, “Protecting yearling bucks results in a large increase in the age of the bucks harvested. For example 3.5 year old buck harvest is up 258% in AR areas of Ulster and Sullivan Counties. Both Ulster and Sullivan Counties have harvested the biggest bucks since the late 1920’s in the Antler Restrictions areas and the overall buck take is up 5.7% over the pre AR harvest”

Hunters are enjoying the benefits of the Yearling Buck Protection. “I have never seen a single white-tailed deer management program that has invigorated and excited hunters more. Hunters in the current AR areas are hunting a deer herd that many generations of NY hunters have never experienced” stated Dick Henry, a recently retired New York DEC biologist.

Tom Yager of the Sullivan County Federation, explained, “The best results have been observed in WMU 3H, where buck harvest numbers have exceeded pre AR levels by 18.3%. According to the Cornell 2011 Survey continuing the Antler Restriction program was acceptable to 90.5% of Sullivan County Hunters.”

David Dirks, a columnist for the Middletown Record, stated, "I'm a big supporter of Antler Restrictions. I'd like to see them implemented on a statewide scale rather than the current hodge-podge of adding a few units at a time over many years. So, if we have to expand Antler Restrictions for now using the slowpoke method, I think adding 3M, where I do most of my deer hunting, is a good place to go next."

The interest in Yearling Buck Protection is very strong in NY where 350,000 hunters support it. For example, during the public comment on the regulation several thousand letters of support were submitted and only a few hundred in opposition. We are seeing a positive change in the interest in and support for yearling buck protection. Sportsmen know it results in better hunting and it is clear common sense to let immature animals reach adulthood. “Currently people are realizing the fact that Antler Restrictions result in more opportunity to see and harvest quality bucks” stated Charles Bevilacqua a Member of CFAB.

David Hartman, concluded, “The Antler Restriction expansion is a victory. The DEC is acknowledging the viability of Antler Restrictions in NY. Now we must turn our attention to bringing this improvement to the majority of deer hunters who support it. Yearling Buck Protection is vital to wildlife viewers and hunters alike”.

Sportsmen and wildlife viewers interested in improving the deer herds in their county should visit our website and join our group. www.nyswmc.com

The regulation adopted by the DEC to Protect Yearling Bucks with Antler Restrictions includes WMUs, 3A, 4S, 4G, 4R, 40, 4P, and 4W, located in Sullivan, Ulster, Delaware, Greene and Schoharie Counties. This program will require deer hunters in those areas to take bucks that have three or more antler points on one side, instead of the antiquated three inch spike antler law which has been in existence since 1911. Similar changes have been successfully enacted in 21 other states and are intended to provide a better balance to the buck age structure of deer populations by protecting yearling bucks from harvest. The over harvest of immature bucks is deemed to be biologically inappropriate by many wildlife biologists across the nation.

[nyantler]

Although not a huge fan of the 3 on a side AR.. I do like that it finally gets guys thinking about passing on bucks which may in fact allow for greater AR's being accepted in the future.

[Lawdwaz]

Please don't tell me what size deer I can shoot. Let me make that choice.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Propaganda...misleading and filled with half truths.

[Gizmo285]

Please don't tell me what size deer I can shoot. Let me make that choice.

I second the motion...Soon it will be no smoking in the woods because it's bad for the deers health.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Gizmo285

[nyantler]

"Yearling Buck Protection is vital to wildlife viewers and hunters alike"

This is exactly the type of statement that ticks me off... no mention of the benefit to a balanced deer herd! Unbelievable!

[Meat Hunter]

"Yearling Buck Protection is vital to wildlife viewers and hunters alike"

This is exactly the type of statement that ticks me off... no mention of the benefit to a balanced deer herd! Unbelievable!

Do tell the benefits and how this is better for the Herd

[nyantler]

Its all about age stucture balance among the bucks... a good representation of all age classes of bucks. Better age stucture produces more natural competition among bucks and help a herd with passing on stronger genetics... not just antler size, but stronger, healthier, more adapable deer. It also puts buck:doe ratios closer with good doe management and gets does bred earlier (during their first estrus) which makes for earlier born fawns that are stronger and better prepared for the NY winters. AR's alone are not the answer... they must be coupled with other sound management ideas.

[erussell]

Its all about age stucture balance among the bucks... a good representation of all age classes of bucks. Better age stucture produces more natural competition among bucks and help a herd with passing on stronger genetics... not just antler size, but stronger, healthier, more adapable deer. It also puts buck:doe ratios closer with good doe management and gets does bred earlier (during their first estrus) which makes for earlier born fawns that are stronger and better prepared for the NY winters. AR's alone are not the answer... they must be coupled with other sound management ideas.

Also it will make people stop and count not just rattle of five shots and leave gut shot and legless deer strewn around the woods. Might have a hunting accident free yr for once if people have to count points. Unfortunatelly it could have an adverse affect on the doe population like they have seen in some areas of PA. Some hunters are going to shoot more does and fawns to make up for the empty buck tags. Which is good but unsustainable in the long run. Might see an even worse population crash in some areas due to the im going to get mine attitudes of some hunters.

[nyslowhand]

Very biased & one-side statements made in that article!

Clearly intented to brag about AR &/or sway the non-believers.

Assuming it's true: aren't the 350,000 individuals in favor of AR approx 1/2 of NY big game license holders?

So...the squeaky wheel does get the grease...

If you want AR and only dream of trophy bucks - have at it!

Don't tell me what size deer/buck I can harvest!

Yeah, I typically pass on spikes or obvious young bucks. Sure, I've shoot several button bucks not knowing.

If it's late in the season & I haven't seen many deer - maybe that 4 pt is beginning to look pretty inviting.

Whitetails were on this continent long before humans & will be here long after we've destroyed it.

Don't try to improve on Mother Nature's plan!

[Doc]

Its all about age stucture balance among the bucks... a good representation of all age classes of bucks. Better age stucture produces more natural competition among bucks and help a herd with passing on stronger genetics... not just antler size, but stronger, healthier, more adapable deer. It also puts buck:doe ratios closer with good doe management and gets does bred earlier (during their first estrus) which makes for earlier born fawns that are stronger and better prepared for the NY winters. AR's alone are not the answer... they must be coupled with other sound management ideas.

Perhaps it was some of that "more natural competition among bucks" that put this buck in a world of hurt:

I believe those to be some antler wounds that may have led to predators taking advantage of the situation and creating this destruction on the buck's rump:

That deer was a mercy killing as it could barely get up, and the story in the snow showed that he had been there a long time in considerable pain. Several bloody beds in one small area. I'm sure that deer would not have made it for much longer.

I used to have a deer skull that I found in the bottom of a ravine that had an antler tip embedded right between the eyes. I often wonder how many of those remains that we find in the woods and assume are gun-wounded deer are actually casualties of some of the fights.

Anyway, the point I am thinking about is that the buck/doe ratios can also create more violence in the fighting, and also cause some additional trauma in terms of depleting needed reserves for making it through the upcoming winter. I wouldn't think that that sort of excessive exertion would be a good thing. I'm just guessing, but it seems that promoting a more violent pre-breeding season would be of little benefit to anything other than predators. I don't know ..... what do you think? Is it a good thing to create conditions of more stress on the buck population? Just asking.

[Lawdwaz]

To the AR guys: What will you do with all those big bucks? Get them all mounted or will they just get hung in the garage or shed? How many can you really stuff? Plenty of low income & unemployed folks can't afford the taxidermy fee.

If you ARE just cutting the skull plate off and NOT mounting a big buck, who cares if it is a 4pt, 6pt or 10pt? Think about it, if the rack is more important than the meat and the experience when you hit the woods than I think your going about this for the wrong reasons.

I enjoy the hunt, the meat and the occasional wall hanger.

[Early]

Lawdwaz...I think you are onto something: The AR guys are hunting for bragging rights. Many of us...I, at least, hunt for sport and meat and can get much enjoyment out of bagging (or helping someone else bag) a healthy spike or 4-pt. Let the "trophy hunting boys" do what they want...just don't force me to do the same.

[growalot]

Whats that saying....6 to 1.....?

What I see..... is great to slow down the running deer shots...which killed one person next to us and nearly my self... a neighbor... our daughter and God only Knows how many others

Bad for it truly will take out way more fawns which increase unintentional buck takes... and too many doe ...the 1:1 ratio is just unrealistic in the wild...and weather conditions in NY too extreme from one year to the next to deplete the doe herd then expect any descent hunting....lets take a page from Wisconsin history...When they went doe dropping crazy then all hell broke loose in their management planning...and more than one Celebrity "hunter" has come down from the QDM agenda to say well...... we may have over estimated how many doe to take and started easing up on that message...

I personally pass on lets say.... less beefy buck...for I'm not worried about spread...or points...though I won't take any thing smaller than a large bodied 6pt....but when I make that choice I want good meat...which is not a deer that looks like a bayonet dummy and full of infection...

I also don't like going down to our camp in the spring to find a bunch of tiny dead fawn...which I've actually had to report to the DEC before...there were so many....We get very late snow storms and early fawning isn't so great

I suppose AR's are good for some areas but NYS is a very diverse geological landscape and AR's.... if for herd health only .... isn't a sound plan state wide

[steve863]

Propaganda is putting it mildly. Exactly who are ALL these sportsman supporting AR's?? I find this rather amusing. From page 8 of the attached DEC document: http://www.dec.ny.go...rregapc2012.pdf

"Summary of public comments:

We received several thousand comments related to the proposed expansion of mandatory ARs, as occurred during public comment on the draft deer management plan in 2011. The vast majority of comments supporting mandatory ARs came as form letters, with several variations, and a few petitions. Many of the letters received were undated, lacked signatures, or were duplicates of letters submitted on the draft deer management plan prior to this rulemaking. Also included were letters of support from more than two dozen elected officials (New York State Senate and Assembly)."

So the AR supporters flooded the DEC with unsigned chain letters to make it look look like the majority of hunters are in support of AR's? Why doesn't this surprise me? Not like most of them have half a brain to put together a letter in their own words in support. What boggles my mind is how the DEC made their decision based on this. It was obviously NOT for biological reasons since the have said before and say it again in this statement that:

"However, mandatory ARs are not biologically necessary to maintain a healthy deer population in New York."

Sad day for many hunters in the Catskills. Just sickening how the greedy desires of a few have impacted everyone else. They also use the term "hunters" and "stakeholders" when they talk about AR's in this document. Who exactly are the "stakeholders" here and why should their opinion even count?? My hunch is that these "stakeholders" are a bunch of sportsmans clubs who have been pushing AR for years now in this region. They have illusions of the Catskills becoming a trophy haven where they could charge even more in membership dues and then purchase more leases where the rest of us pee-ons who simply enjoy hunting whether we shoot trophies or not are left with even fewer places to hunt.

Edited July 13, 2012 by steve863

[burmjohn]

I'm in support 100% of AR. All of you guys keep generalizing AR supporters as greedy trophy hunters, that's just not the case, and not fair at all. I don't belong to a sportsman club, I don't belong to any organizations (yet), I haven't shot a buck in 8+ years... Had a few opportunities at some nice buck over the last 3 - 4 years but were out of range during the bow season. I have a group of at least 25 hunters that we all associate with in 3H and 3J, not one is opposed to the AR and most of those 25 were already practicing some form a restrictions on their own along with QDM.

[steve863]

I haven't shot a buck in 8+ years... Had a few opportunities at some nice buck over the last 3 - 4 years but were out of range during the bow season.

Honestly, I don't think you are very good at hunting then and you think that AR's will somehow make things easier for you. Obviously since your area already has AR's, they aren't helping you much either. I don't consider myself much more than an average Joe hunter and hunt an area that has never had a great number of deer around, yet I have killed a buck the last 8 years straight and guess what? 5 of these bucks easily fall within the AR requirements. Why was I able to kill them and you weren't? Who knows?? I am still strongly against AR's nonetheless. You guys can continue to hunt for bucks that are ten years old and toothless, but why must you force your ideas of what hunting is on the rest of us?? That is the question at hand here, and I have yet to hear a credible answer from any of you. Legal regulated hunting has NEVER been about antlers for many hunters out there. This is a fact you fellas need to start understanding.

[burmjohn]

Steve863 - Where do you hunt?

[Early]

It would appear that the "Strong Support" mentioned here is a figment of someone's imagination!

[meatmuzzy]

Im not even going to bother to comment here because someone will jump down my throat and accuse me of being a bad hunter or a greedy trophy hunter....what has this site come too???

[mbucks27]

Im not even going to bother to comment here because someone will jump down my throat and accuse me of being a bad hunter or a greedy trophy hunter....what has this site come too???

I agree with you 100% Everybody has their own opinion and it seems like on this site and every other hunting site out there that if you don't agree with what somebody else does or thinks then you are wrong or a bad hunter. Cant we all just get along????????? I normally don't partake in any thread where there are guys fighting with each other. This subject has really gotten out of hand and the bottom line is there are people who agree with AR's and there are people who don't. That's always the way it is going to be and doesn't make a person right or wrong based on which side they are on.

John

Edited July 13, 2012 by mbucks27

[burmjohn]

you think that AR's will somehow make things easier for you.

Obviously you are missing the big picture and focusing the things that make it easier for you to argue against AR's.

[nyantler]

Perhaps it was some of that "more natural competition among bucks" that put this buck in a world of hurt:

I believe those to be some antler wounds that may have led to predators taking advantage of the situation and creating this destruction on the buck's rump:

That deer was a mercy killing as it could barely get up, and the story in the snow showed that he had been there a long time in considerable pain. Several bloody beds in one small area. I'm sure that deer would not have made it for much longer.

I used to have a deer skull that I found in the bottom of a ravine that had an antler tip embedded right between the eyes. I often wonder how many of those remains that we find in the woods and assume are gun-wounded deer are actually casualties of some of the fights.

Anyway, the point I am thinking about is that the buck/doe ratios can also create more violence in the fighting, and also cause some additional trauma in terms of depleting needed reserves for making it through the upcoming winter. I wouldn't think that that sort of excessive exertion would be a good thing. I'm just guessing, but it seems that promoting a more violent pre-breeding season would be of little benefit to anything other than predators. I don't know ..... what do you think? Is it a good thing to create conditions of more stress on the buck population? Just asking.

Fighting is the natural way of the whitetail... it's what they do in all the animal kingdom to establish dominance and create a pecking order where the strongest of the species survive and passes on the strongest genes... it's a built in survival mechanism... animals die, other animals live... the ones that die feed other animals.. it just mother natures way. Mans interruption in mother natures affairs is what changes nature. Before man's interruption, whitetails had balnced herds and age structures and they thrived on their own... management is simply trying to return them to something similar to the way it's suppose to be... Some guys will say there is no right or wrong answer... that is not true... there is.. they just aren't willing to except the right answer so they call out those who do. That is just the human condition.

[NFA-ADK]

Meatmuzzy don't be afraid to post what you believe in even if it stirs the pot a little bit, so what... It is just a forum and that is what they are for... Posting opinions or perspective on something we are involved in and passionate about...

Personaly I believe in AR restrictions and have my own I follow. Hearing the guys in Penn state right next to us claiming the deer are amazing and large is what I like to hunt and is proof enough that AR's work for me. Many did not like AR's untile a few years later when they started taking a larger class of deer.

Call me a trophy hunter a bad hunter or just a antler hunter I do not mind... I feel this would be a better way to get a more healthy heard which in part can equate to larger healthy deer. Will this gaurantee you will shoot a large deer, NO, just because you have a better age structure does not make the deer easyer to hunt. As a matter of fact, I would argue that the deer are harder to hunt because they get smarter with age... In so far as the fighting between dominant bucks, yes in a healthy heard some will die from fights and this would not be uncommon with a healthy larger heard.

Most bucks are very familliar with the antlers they have and thier status in a group. If a young buck challenges a large mature deer that has not mated a doe yet, he is filled with testosterone and will kill that young deer if he does not back down or show enough respect to leave him alone and get out of his area.

In so far as me and every other hunter who support AR restrictions, I can say that most of them do not expect to shoot a 10 year old deer with no teeth because if this implementation. That is a pretty unrealistic view IMO.

Dealing with everyday joe public, I would say that most who are against AR restrictions just want to be able to shoot anything that comes down the pipe... And could care less about the heard and the health of them. I have to say I am disgusted with every day Joe public. Every day joe public will shoot anything, does not matter if it is legal, they will poach, ride in vehecles with a loaded gun and shoot from the vehecle. They could care less about deer, the heard or thier health and are more concerned with being able to shoot thier gun and say they shot a deer this year.

I consider myself a highly ethical hunter, I am sure most would put me in the trophy hunting group...

1)I do not shot doe in low populations of deer and encourage the culling in high populations that need it.

2)I do not shoot spikes ever and consider anything with 2 or less points young and allowed a free pass

3)I follow the rules to the best of my ability and try to understand them...

4)I will mentor a youth

5)I do not impose my hunting ethics on others yet I will try to educate them as to why I hunt like I do.

In so far as having AR restrictions for spikes, I think they should have started the AR with this instead of the 3 pt system. Will this impove your heard, I do not know. Each area as most of us know varies between habitat and terian making some area's more prone to having better benifits from AR restriction.

I am sure many will toss insults at me and call me a antler hunter and tell me you still want to put meat in your freezer and this will prevent that. Realize I do not point my finger at anyone on this site saying that you poach or hunt from your vehecle or do not care about your deer. But the general feeling I get from most hunters is regulations are for other people and not me which leads me to believe most hunters just want to shoot something, regaurdless of weather food is the justification or not...

I do not think this should be a state wide implementation and even if enacted people should be allowed to take any legal deer for food if it is justified. EX: anyone making less than 100K per household is allowed to shoot anything lega the 1st 2 years. This would still allow those who need deer for meat to get them and hopefully allow enough deer to reach the restrictions so in 2 years it would not be needed...

Sorry for the attitude but as you can see every day Joe public has kinda pissed me off, they just do not seem to care about deer, just being able to shoot a deer.

Am I the only one who feels bad after shooting an animal? No, I hope...

[WNYBuckHunter]

I just feel hungry after I shoot them....