What is becoming of todays hunting?

[biggamefish]

  I knew when he wrote the paragraph it was going to be a hot subject.  Nothing like waving a big flag saying look what I have and what you don't.  I say good for noodle to have 1400 acres to hunt on let him hunt on it and do want he wants.  If he wants to hunt naked and run through bryers so be it.  WHO CARES I don't we will go on hunting the same way and so will he.  Some people like to push buttons.

[steve863]

  If he wants to hunt naked and run through bryers so be it. 

Just as long as it's not during the bow season.  The bowhunters associations wouldn't like this anymore than they do crossbows! 

[Doewhacker]

It brings new meaning to the term "Hunting bear"...

[First-light]

I think we need a "beer summit" and put our differences aside.

[Doc]

It's a real shame that this topic got off to such a bad start because I do believe that the subject as suggested by the thread title is a very interesting one. I believe that hunting has and is undergoing massive changes in terms of what it all means to those that participate in it and how we view hunter satisfaction and how we accept or wish to remove some of the challenges of hunting. Some changes are good and a lot of them are not so good. Some of that is being reflected in our slipping hunter population. I think it is a subject that maybe should be started over with a little calmer, less incendiary view of the subject.

Have any of you noticed attitudes, methods, goals, etc. changing over say the last 20 or 30 years? If so are those changes good bad or indifferent?

Doc

[Fairgame]

  Posted by: Doc« on: Today at 02:01:01 pm » 

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It's a real shame that this topic got off to such a bad start because I do believe that the subject as suggested by the thread title is a very interesting one. I believe that hunting has and is undergoing massive changes in terms of what it all means to those that participate in it and how we view hunter satisfaction and how we accept or wish to remove some of the challenges of hunting. Some changes are good and a lot of them are not so good. Some of that is being reflected in our slipping hunter population. I think it is a subject that maybe should be started over with a little calmer, less incendiary view of the subject.

Have any of you noticed attitudes, methods, goals, etc. changing over say the last 20 or 30 years? If so are those changes good bad or indifferent?

Doc            Nice,  Doc probably just asked probably what you probably were intending on doing without sounding like it was pissing him off, and without pointing fingers.      Nice going DOC! 

[WTAddict]

I dont usually get involved in threads like this but.................for the people bashing noodle, your so far off its pathetic, go back and read his post carefully....................then apoligize to him.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I have to chime in too... I agree with WT. I din't read into Noodle's original post any hostility. I understood his "greed" question. I see it.

I think many of us have lost sight of the experience for the results portion of hunting. He was suggesting that before we champion any cause maybe we should take a look at how it effect everyone not just us. I have been guilty of it. especially in the crossbow posts. I want it legal in bow season so I can bow hunt with my father again. I definitely want it more than he probably does. He is clear on what is important...even during bow he still comes up to camp....cooks...hangs out and tell stories and we enjoy each others company...and when we run out of stories we pull out the lies...lol. But my view on xbows is greedy and selfish...I want results for me and don't consider you guys.... Sorry for that.

Think of the last time you took someone hunting...put them in the most productive stand you have and they took a great buck....great feeling huh. Now if any of you had someone come hunting with you....put them in a crap stand and the poor sap didn't see anything...that feelign will never compare with one that wasn't greedy.

My 2 cents...no more xbow talk.....unless Solon want to pm me...LOL...sorry Solon

[Fairgame]

If I misread it I appologize.  I can understand where Noodle is coming from.

[Doc]

So anyway, is there some way we can salvage this thread?

[burmjohn]

I think noodle should invite us all to hunt those 1400 acres, they can talk there and work things out, and then its all good

[nyslowhand]

Anger management for certain individuals.

[Larry]

noodle's post is right on the mark

[TheHunter]

How can one compare greed to wanting to age the herd, and give the opportunity to those who want to shoot a bigger buck.

I  brought my cousin into the sport last year, we saw a lot sitting together last year. He shot and missed a 6 ptr, due to nervousness...  This year I'll sit with him again and hunt, I hope he bags a buck or a doe for that matter.  There are plenty of legal bucks running around in my WMU in and AR Zone to give the opportunity for a new comer or a seasoned hunter to shoot. 

He understands that a spike, a 4 ptr, a smaller younger deer is one that he can not shoot. He is 100% OK with that.  He understands that ageing the deer will result in a larger more mature deer.  If that means not getting a deer one year, he is OK with that and respects that.

Greed? Is that is? No.  Greed is those that want to shoot up the woods and kill the yearlings if you ask me.  Greed is that of those that have to bag a buck every year.  Think of the future hunters, think that our sons, cousins and youngones could get a buck that has more then 2 points.    Why not protect the herd and give the opportunity to ones that have not got a more mature deer. Why not? Whats the harm? One can not go a year or two with out getting a buck?  For those who say they hunt for meat, their family, that is a bunch of bull. With all the money spend on gear, guns, bullets, and hunting licensees you could go out and buy the meat for same costs it would be to support a year of hunting.

[Caveman]

For those who say they hunt for meat, their family, that is a bunch of bull. With all the money spend on gear, guns, bullets, and hunting licensees you could go out and buy the meat for same costs it would be to support a year of hunting.

I think people do hunt for the meat in a way, though maybe not the way that you're thinking.  I think it goes beyond steak and burgers to the feeling behind being able to procure your own food.  It's not just about your  family eating but that primitive feeling you can beat your chest and call yourself a true provider.  Just my 2 cents.

[TheHunter]

Agreed.... Some of these folks act like if they don't bag that spike their fam will starve.

[Doc]

Agreed.... Some of these folks act like if they don't bag that spike their fam will starve.

Well, people hunt for a lot of reasons and meat is just one of them. Actually, when you think about it, it is really none of our business why or what they hunt. It is just our business that we don't do things that will discourage them from hunting.

If somebody thinks they are getting cheap, healthy, meat by hunting, far be it for me to try to change their minds about that. Besides, I do know some people that I believe do financially make out from their deer hunting. I know we always think of hunting expenses based on what we lay out each year to hunt. But I do know people who virtually buy nothing but their licenses each year. Given the number of deer that they can legally harvest, they don't have a very big annual meat budget.

[Doc]

Relative to the "greed" comment, I believe there may be some of that, but much of what is mistaken for greed is merely hunters trying to maintain some form of absolute control over their hunting as they are being instructed to do by every magazine article, hunting TV show and video and every self-proclaimed "expert" in hunting that is out there making their living by conducting seminars. This is one of the changes that I asked about earlier that I have noticed over the past 30 years or so. We have been told that there are certain things that we must do in order to be hunters today. No true hunter can survive without some sort of food plotting activity. There are certain deer harvest requirements that must be followed in order to be a true hunter and foster the growth of the required amount of bone on a deer's head. There are all kinds of new techniques that must be used in order to be a true hunter which require a herd that is not constantly disturbe by other hunters. And all these things require strict control on our own lands (limited hunting access). I suppose some might call this greed, but I believe it is just a reaction to what we have been sold over the last few decades as the absolute standards and behaviors required to be a good hunter. That's not greed, it's just following the trends of hunting. Unfortunately, a lot of these modern hunting principles, activities and techniques require exclusive use of large parcels of land and exclusion of a lot of hunters who used to freely use those same acres. It all may look like greed, but it's merely the way hunting has evolved. It's not something that is going to go away and in fact I expect it all to intensify. When I saw the high fences and signs going up around a few hundred (or was that thousand?) acres over in Honeoye, I didn't see this as greed. It's simply what hunting is becoming. When I saw the 300 acres up on the hill being posted by a "corporation" to be used as member only hunting, I knew that was simply a sign of the times. When I read about the money being laid out for leases, I realize that that is just what hunters have been told is necessary to hunt. That all is not greed. It's just merely following instructions and doing what we have been told is the proper way to be true hunters by the "experts".

Doc

[Mr VJP]

The deer regs are up to the Game Dept.  When they make a decision on regs it's for the good of the entire herd and all of the hunters in NY.  They are in a position where they can't please everyone, so they do what is biologically correct for all.

AR's are fine if they are used selectively.  Perhaps not a good idea in an area that has way too many deer currently.  The crossbow issue is an entirely different topic that deals with hunting implements and not deer themselves.  This is a political issue as opposed to a real hunting issue. 

Overall, hunters must remember that the rules are there for the benefit of all hunters, all the deer and the State of NY.  If you don't like the rules, work to change them using facts, science and logic on the Game Dept decision makers.  Arguing with other hunters and calling them names isn't productive, it's divisive.  This state is big enough for all hunters to be able to follow their chosen style of hunting without stabbing other hunters in the back.

There will always be hunters with more ability to hunt than others, but hunting is not a right and it carries no guarantees.  You pay your money and take your chances.

Know the rules that are in place, quit complaining and have a good time!

[Larry]

Mr VJP your post is right on target.

[ELMER J. FUDD]

What is becoming of todays hunt-ER? That is the question...

[Doc]

What is becoming of todays hunt-ER? That is the question...

I can only tell you what I think I have seen over the years. Back when I first started hunting, we only concerned ourselves with hunting deer as we found them. It never occurred to us to try to change the species to accomodate our success. Today we want to feed them. We want to grow them. We want to farm them. We want to genetically alter them. We want to do everything to create opportunities for our current definition of must-have trophies. We don't want to seek the one or two large deer that are out there, we want to try to make enough them to go around. It all boils down to the fact that we don't like the species as it is being presented to us, so we want to make our own and a whole lot more of them so they are easier to get.

Another change is that we have come to believe that we can buy our trophy. If not directly by engaging in pay-to-hunt ranches, then by buying some gadget or gimmick or buying some piece of clothing or scent killing chemical. We have come to believe that we can buy a new super weapon that will eliminate some of that challenge, or buy some call or lure or scent that will deprive the deer of some of their defenses. We can buy fences, bait and bait broadcasters, minerals and food supplements, hidden cameras, etc., etc.  And by the way, I'm not sure when all this started. I think it is not all new. But the emphasis and obsession on these things has accelerated in the last decade or two and still seems to be accelerating wildly just as fast as technology will allow.

Thats what hunters have evolved into as I see it. Is all that good or bad. I suppose we all have to figure that out for ourselves. There will be no universal agreement on that.

Doc

[bubba]

in simple terms, there are 5 stages to a hunter.  We all move back and forth in them and sometimes use more than one.

They are

1. The shooting stage.  No matter what you have to do a lot of shooting. Whether it be at the range which is good if you actually shoot to improve your skills, or shoot to hear the gun go boom.  The same is true when hunting. If a goose fliees by, you have to shoot all the shells the gun holds to get it.

2. Limiting out stage.  No matter whether you plan to use them or not, you have to get your limit every time you are out. Kind of like the bragging rights.

in general you would equate these two stages to young hunters starting out.

3. Trophy Stage  You start hunting a trophy. Now keep in mind what is a trophy to one may not be to another.  My biggest trophy is a spike horn I shot the year after my Dad died with his 300 savage rifle. I proudy display that rack on my wall of fame.  This stage seems to suck a lot up and they never move out. The bigger better faster mentality. 

4. Method stage.  The hunter decides he is going to use one method to get his game. It may be that he is only going to use a bow all season or in my case in the middle of rifle country, I decide to use a muzzleloader all season. It is a personal choice made, and is the most fulfilling when successul.

5. Sportsman Stage.  This is where the hunter enjoys the whole aspect of the hunt.  Harvesting an aminal is secondary to the time spent in the woods or at camp with the other guys.  This is when a hunter tries to pass on the traditions and methods to others.  You are just as happy when another harvests a nice animal as if you did so yourself.  In my opinion, you are not a truie hunter until you get to this stage.

As i see it, too many are locked into the trophy stage. I feel a lot of this comes from the far from reality based hunting shows. And people get greedy. For instace, nothing can ever change because this was set up for my group and no others can get in (bow hunting).  I still say in the new DSM V (the diagnostic criteria for establishing a mental illness) should have a criteria for hunter insanity. People literally go insane for three of four months. My fondest memories of my younger years were sitting around in our hunting camp listening to the stories of my dad and uncles, the laughs, and the hunting planning.  When I try to do that now, no one seems to want to listen.  It is too much texting, facebooking and listening to their mp3 players.  So in summary, I think hunting has went to the wayside for technology.  Everybody needs trail cams and range finders and the biggest caliber gun there is to harvest a whitetail. I truly do not know how our predeccors sruvived and were able to harvest animal without all the gadgets.  WE ALL NEED TO GET BACK TO THE BASIC IDEALS AND TRADITIONS THAT MADE HUNTING WHAT IT WAS, OR I AM AFRAID IT WILL BECOME SOMETHING ELSE EXTINCT.

[jimbodwb]

WE ALL NEED TO GET BACK TO THE BASIC IDEALS AND TRADITIONS THAT MADE HUNTING WHAT IT WAS, OR I AM AFRAID IT WILL BECOME SOMETHING ELSE EXTINCT.

Well said. I remember when I was younger (16-20years old or so) not being able to sleep the night before opening day. Getting out of bed at 3am and going outside to feel the chill in the air and almost burst with excitement. I used to watch the fields and sides of the road as we drove to our pulloff just hoping to see eyes. Getting to our pulloff and jump out of the truck just to go and talk to my uncles and cousins. Everybody talking about where they have been seeing sign and what their plans were for the day. Walking a mile or so back into the woods in the pitch black and shaking with excitement in hopes of just even seeing a deer. We did not care if we shot a deer that day or any day. We did not care if one of the other guys shot a deer and we did not. We were just happy to be out there. I remember seeing a guy dragging a big 8 point up the trail on the state land and I got out of my blind, packed up my stuff and helped him drag it all the way to his truck. I did not know who this guy was and it didn't matter because I got to see a nice big deer down. I was not jealous of him I was happy for him. This to me is the basic ideals and traditions that made hunting what it was to me.

[WTAddict]

That reminds me of a outfitter i went to in maine awhile back, was there 5 days and the only deer i saw was the 8pt i helped drag out a mile that was shot by the guide.  :