Gas drilling (fracting) and your hunting property

[HectorBuckBuster]

Here is a good forum on this region for gas info. http://gomarcellusshale.com. It Has alot of info on PA ,as they are booming with gas wells. Also fracking has been going on since the 1950's is NYS. Check this link http://www.dec.ny.gov/energy/46288.html .  It just they are not using huge amounts of water only 100,000 gallons, instead of millions need for the Marcells well.

[Doc]

This is turning into a pretty interesting topic. It is probably one of the few topics that we have going that is actually trying to involve facts. That's pretty rare.

I'm still a bit hung up on why we don't hear more from legislators trying to sort out the right and wrong of this mass of facts (pro and con). I mean this is the state that worries about such things as recycling, and septic systems, and lake watersheds and wants to regulate the hell out anything that impacts the green movement. We are also loaded up with all kinds of liberal, green politicians in this state that would dearly love to make their legacy out of an issue like this. And yet there are no legislative studies or cases which involve shutting down this idea of "fracking". It all is still relatively silent from a legislative standpoint. It appears that there is still a heavy shortfall of actual scientific data on the "con" side as well as a fairly large content of "what-ifs". What-ifs are ok, but at some point there has to be declaration of facts in order to make a credible case. I haven't read a lot of that yet. Maybe that is yet to come. Our man Armcomm has presented a pretty darn convincing argument with the kind of detail that is useful in forming an opinion. I would like to see that sort of thing from the opposition, or at least something besides a Hollywood version of the issue.

However, the topic is off to a heck of a good start and hopefully we can hear some rebuttal that contains documented scientific hard info. I'm looking forward to it.

Doc

[HectorBuckBuster]

I am in the Fingerlakes area, so I see all these NO FRACK signs on my way to work everyday. Most of them are near Ithaca, and in peoples yards that do not own much land or rent there house.You do not see alot of these sign's in yards of people that own large amounts of land. Also about the run off . I live in Wine Country , and see how much spray is put on some of these grapes. I have seen the same vineyard sprayed 1-2 times per week from late May all the way to Harvest time in Sept/Oct . How much of that spray ends up in the run off? I am guessing there is alot of it, when you take all the vineyards in account. Most of the vineyards are also located with in a few miles of the lake. How much Copper Sulfite and other sprays end up in Seneca Lake ? I rather see a gas well in a field then all that land broken down into building lots and sold off and then have house's built. I think some people just are jealous of land owners and farmers who just might get ahead in this world. Most farmers are lucky enought just to scrape by to keep the family farm. I am talking a family farm and not those Corporation Farms.

[steve863]

OK, but does fracking benefit antler growth?  I am sure they would get lots of landowners signing up if that was the case.   

[HectorBuckBuster]

Well, I know if I had some extra money, I would be putting in some very nice food plots. 

[CNYScott]

Maybe we could start a brassica planting initiative when the drilling is complete and the land is reclaimed. 

[flny77]

no sound from the liberal politicians because they're all paid off -liberal also means lacking of backbone as well as common scene. If people could see behind the curtain (money) the show would be over.

[Lawdwaz]

Fracking has not been going on for years, drilling yes but fracking no. The only huge lease offers to date exceedeing $3,000 bucks per acre are down in the Catskill region. This is the core area of the Marcellus shale. Out lying areas like the southern tier are getting a couple hundred per acre.

I'm talking about PA, $3-5,000 per acre.

[wztirem]

I'm not lobbying you, and I fully disclosed my professional involvement up front.  What else would you have me do?  I tried to contribute to the conversation with my knowledge and as a hunter who is a native NY'er.  Decide for yourself.

As I stated the industry is willing to disclose all materials to regulators and expects the DEC will demand that.  The DEC sets the standards, the industry will comply.  The materials will mostly be recovered, some will be absorbed below 5,000 feet.

You're more at risk from fertilizer run-off and winter road salt than anything used in fracking fluid. 

One man's informed opinion.  You're free to decide, and the idea of a forum is to hear from other people.

With all due respect, your fertilizer analogy is too simplistic. What many are concerned about is what the effect of fracking will have on the potable water aquifer. There are no guarantees that the future water resources contained in the aquifers will not be  affected by such gas drilling methods. The DEC should be complimented on proceeding cautiously with regards to gas drilling via fracking methods in NY State. The gas producers and leasers to such companies are concerned only with financial gains and could care less about anything or anyone else.

[jasons75]

ArmComm, 

That was a very interesting read. And Very informative. Thanks for the view from the opposite side of the road.

I agree with you about the Hollywood sensationalists and Wacky environmentalists that go over board to "sell" their Ideas. I'm sure the movie was showing worst cases of negligence that have occurred around the country.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen the Gas companies or their advocates defending against the accusations that have been made..

My opinion is still that it shouldn't be allowed because the potential dangers to the environment and the people are to great.

From your explanation, ANGA seems like its the type of company that somewhat cares and that would take responsibility if an accident occurred and cleaned up properly... What about the companies that don't care? what about the workers that would sooner go about covering up  an accident instead of reporting it? These things do happen.

I live on the gulf coast of FL...( I am moving back to NY in March). I don't have the issue of fracking happening around me...  but my opinion is made in part from our recent fight for oil drilling off our coast... The Oil companies are banned from drilling off any of Florida's coast.

A lot of people here were all for the rigs coming here.. the jobs and the boost to the economy would have been a huge improvement to our area.

The oil companies touted The safety systems that they use to shut off a well in an  emergency being  state of the art. They potentially eliminate the possibility major spills. The oil companies were pushing so hard at the state that they were all but given the green light to start drilling....

until the spill in Feb....  where human error and negligence (i know this hasn't been %100 proven yet) lead to a spill has killed off dozens of reefs... countless numbers of fish, birds and manatees (which were just taken off the endangered species list in 2008 or 2009).  Hundreds of miles of coastal habitat was destroyed along the northern coast line and the northern gulf fishing grounds will most likely never produce they way they did before the spill.

The spill is still not completely cleaned up. It probably will never be full cleaned up.

Fl Government pulled the plug on drilling idea.

Drilling has been occurring along Tx, La, Ms for a long time. In TX, If you walk along the beaches in some areas, you have to watch were you walk to avoid tar balls that wash up... I've seen Drums and other trash from the rigs on the TX beaches as well..  The sand is very dirty (stained) and the water is murky sometimes smells funny..  most of, if not all from the oil rigs.

My point of this is..... The potential for irreversible environmental damage, no matter how small of a chance there is of it occurring, is not worth the price we would pay.  Murphys law says that if it can happen it will happen... Just because it has not happened yet doesn't mean it will not, each new well that is setup increases the potential of a major disaster occurring.

[bpb]

With regards to the fracing fluid - it is proprietary to the drilling companies (they are business competitors, after all), but nearly all have voluntarily agreed to disclose their "recipe" to regulators, and we expect DEC to require that.

  I was at a meeting 2 years ago and the DEC had already requested the formula. According to the discussion that day, the drilling companies were not releasing anything claiming proprietary rights.

Sooooo your statement seems a bit peculiar to me.

[CNYScott]

I think it's fair to say a lot of progress has been made in the two years since your meeting.  DEC will require it, and most companies have expressed a willingness to give their formulas to regulators. 

[HHC1]

Armcomm is correct....there are some companies that are releasing the components of their fracking fluid, Range Resources being one. However, there are some notables like Schlumberger that are still claiming proprietary issues. The link below is a list of components of fracking fluid as disclosed by Pennsylvania DEP.

http://marcellusdrilling.com/2010/06/list-of-78-chemicals-used-in-hydraulic-fracturing-fluid-in-pennsylvania/

[mjac]

I simply don't trust what these companies tell the public.

The bottom line to these energy companies and the investors ( of course) is the almighty dollar, with the quickest and easiest way to get to that gas. They will tell you anything you want to hear to get to it.  The " proprietary" reasons for getting their frack receipe is a bunch of horse crap. 

  The boost to the local economies and jobs is usually short term until the wells are drilled and producing,  then they move on.  Part of their business is getting sued, and they drag on those cases all the while the drilling still goes on and damage is done.  I don't blame the broke farmers or others who take the offers for the land, it's easy money for them. The responsibility lies with the energy companies, and thats the problem. Simply not trusted.

  With all that gas down there which they can produce, have you ever seen the prices we consumers pay go down as a result ??  Guarantee that our prices we pay will go down and sign off on that ,and maybe I personally might start to listen.  If you want the gas, do it with the old fashion hard working way, which has been proven.

Until then, the companies officers and investors are they ones laughing at us.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I would be curious if any of te companies involved in this endevor had any involvement in the Gas storage well fiascoe that took place down in Avoca NY. The way that group treated the locals when things didn't work out would scare me about giving another group the green light.

[Doc]

I understand skepticism toward the motives and tactics of businesses here in the US and elsewhere. There's no doubt that often they have earned it through past dealings. On the other hand, to take a position of anti-business here in a capitalistic country to the point where you just feel like arbitrarily denying them any opportunity to operate and refusing to listen to anything they are saying doesn't seem to be too good an idea either. I'm trying to listen to and evaluate both sides before I form an opinion. I don't have any scientific backgound or any personal expertise in the energy business, so before handing the business of energy exploration over exclusively to foriegn and often unfriendly countries, I have to take the time to listen to both sides with as open a mind as possible. It is interesting to try to understand just what the hazardous situations (real and potential) are that are involved, and just what is being proposed to regulate and monitor the control of those situations. I don't think that we as an industrial society can afford to just arbitrarily discard anything that has to do with domestic energy creation without an honest and open minded investigation. I think through this thread, I am getting a better understanding of the pros and cons. It's a good discussion.

[Doewhacker]

Another thing to consider, DEC is in charge of regulating this industry, the same DEC that is crippled with lay offs and no funds to run it effectively. How are they going to make sure we are safe when there is no man power/money to do so.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I agree, Doc. It is very difficult to even determine who the players are in the energy shell game. Off shore companies. conglomerates formed for a specific project, oil companies..on and on. Many are set up for a specific project and the financial backing is very hard to trace.

If McDonalds gives be a bad burger...(I know....all their burgers are bad...but humor me...lol) I can clearly identify a McDonalds and avoid them. If there is an issue such as dedication to the environment or treatment of local businesses during a project, identifing the company to avoid isn't as easy.

We have to become less dependent on foreign sorces of energy. Even drilling in the Gulf.....there are still foreign companies drilling and exploring out there...just not us. and as bad as the mess was in the beginning of the year, I still trust US companies much more than foreign concerns. We need to find the correct balance.

[CNYScott]

Friends -- Since many have expressed a lack of available information here is a link to America's Natural Gas Alliance, a natural gas industry trade association that my firm represents in New York State as I've previously disclosed. 

Far from nefarious business shells and purposely plotting to poison the earth, I think you'll find it informative, useful and full of actual scientific facts.  Again, admittedly I'm presenting the industry side, individuals must choose to decide what is right for them. 

http://www.anga.us/

I'd agree this has been a useful topic and one that certainly impacts the hunting community.  As for me I plan on getting out and hunting for the next couple of days while we can!  Hunt safe and well if you're headed out.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Good luck and Enjoy!

LOL....I had already googled it

[Doc]

Friends -- Since many have expressed a lack of available information here is a link to America's Natural Gas Alliance, a natural gas industry trade association that my firm represents in New York State as I've previously disclosed. 

Far from nefarious business shells and purposely plotting to poison the earth, I think you'll find it informative, useful and full of actual scientific facts.  Again, admittedly I'm presenting the industry side, individuals must choose to decide what is right for them. 

http://www.anga.us/

I'd agree this has been a useful topic and one that certainly impacts the hunting community.  As for me I plan on getting out and hunting for the next couple of days while we can!  Hunt safe and well if you're headed out.

Thanks for the link. I may have missed it, but I didn't see any info specifically on the issue of fracking. That topic is far different than discussions of natural gas and its uses and value. Maybe there are no internet sites where the gas companies take on the issue of this procedure and answers the allegations and fears that people have regarding this method of gas drilling, but that is really the information that I would like to see. That info in factual terms is what I would like to see from both sides.

[CNYScott]

Procedure video, in detail:

Horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing

Fracing fluid chemicals:

http://www.hydraulicfracturing.com/Fracturing-Ingredients/Pages/information.aspx

[CNYScott]

Lest the video scares you with the large presence of drilling equipment - that is temporary as the video states.  This picture shows an active producing well, post drilling, with reclaimed land.  The footprint is 1/4 - 1/2 acre with an access road. 

[wztirem]

What you portray is a rosy picture. How about  posting some photos of what can go wrong and the potential consequences of such mishaps. Clearly, the process of this type of drilling does not come without potential risks and irreversible effects to groundwater supplies.

[Doewhacker]

The EPA has some info on this and some studies that have been done and info on up coming studies too.

http://water.epa.gov/type/groundwater/uic/class2/hydraulicfracturing/index.cfm

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/uic/pdfs/hfresearchstudyfs.pdf

http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw/uic/pdfs/cbmstudy_attach_uic_ch06_water_qual_incidents.pdf