I'm changing my stance on XBOWS

[growalot]

Just a side note...This morning Mr B and I are talking tags...he went and got his two extras...and I am headed out now...forgot mine yesterday......but he mentioned hunting dates because got  both of last years archery deer with the xbow...this year I'll eat tag soup before giving the DEC one more penny of my $$...yes I hold long grudges and am not over this 2 wk doe only crap....I honestly don't care if I tag a doe this year...If I did I would have been sitting in the new blind  where they have rounded the end of the fence every single night at 17 yrds...reminds me need to pull that card today

That said he says you sure xbow starts the 7th...guy at work has been using his xbow since the 1st...I said..... than maybe he has some sorta of disability waiver..knowing full well he wouldn't for xbow...Nope he's fine...WTH

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Just a side note...This morning Mr B and I are talking tags...he went and got his two extras...and I am headed out now...forgot mine yesterday......but he mentioned hunting dates because got  both of last years archery deer with the xbow...this year I'll eat tag soup before giving the DEC one more penny of my $$...yes I hold long grudges and am not over this 2 wk doe only crap....I honestly don't care if I tag a doe this year...If I did I would have been sitting in the new blind  where they have rounded the end of the fence every single night at 17 yrds...reminds me need to pull that card today

That said he says you sure xbow starts the 7th...guy at work has been using his xbow since the 1st...I said..... than maybe he has some sorta of disability waiver..knowing full well he wouldn't for xbow...Nope he's fine...WTH

That is taking the "little bit before legal shooting light" a bit far...lol

[jjb4900]

I don't get the confusion over the Crossbow start date....it was never given a specific numerical start, just the last two weeks of the Archery season. What's next, guys heading out on Nov. 15th for the regular season start because that's what it was last year?????????

[grampy]

My passion has and always will be for my vertical bow. But I am looking forward to using the crossbow again this year because it's fun and I can do so legally. Any weapon used to hunt deer can cause a deer to be wounded and not recovered. From the long bow to the high powered rifle. The problem lies in the hands of some "hunters". No matter what you use, you MUST become proficient with it! You owe it to yourself, and the animals hunted to make a clean ethical kill! I have hunted long enough to know that sometimes a bad hit will happen to everyone, and I have agonized over a bad hit myself. But I Learned from it! I feel some "hunters" out there, just HAVE to kill a deer to justify, the time spent hunting, money spent on hunting, or to boost their own ego. They see a deer and HAVE to kill it no matter what! And take questionable shots in trying to do so. Look around, you won't have to look far to see someone like I have just mentioned, sad to say.

[Freytown]

If they were in monogamous relationships I might agree, but one buck can breed many does.  

 

Let me go out on a limb here and guess that you don't bow hunt?

Studies have shown that bucks father only a few deer. Most doe come into heat around the same time and a buck will remain with ONE doe until she is out of heat.

 

Yes I do...but not with a cocked, scoped x-bow.

[growalot]

What kills me is he would go to work and openly talk about it...of course he knows Mr B doen't bow hunt so obviuosly wouldn't know..well he has to know his wife does so.....GOD it just tweeks me...I could be out there and have done everything right, tag and all and forget to put it on the deer for the 200yard drive to the house and get nailed!!...yet....

[Buckmaster7600]

My passion has and always will be for my vertical bow. But I am looking forward to using the crossbow again this year because it's fun and I can do so legally. Any weapon used to hunt deer can cause a deer to be wounded and not recovered. From the long bow to the high powered rifle. The problem lies in the hands of some "hunters". No matter what you use, you MUST become proficient with it! You owe it to yourself, and the animals hunted to make a clean ethical kill! I have hunted long enough to know that sometimes a bad hit will happen to everyone, and I have agonized over a bad hit myself. But I Learned from it! I feel some "hunters" out there, just HAVE to kill a deer to justify, the time spent hunting, money spent on hunting, or to boost their own ego. They see a deer and HAVE to kill it no matter what! And take questionable shots in trying to do so. Look around, you won't have to look far to see someone like I have just mentioned, sad to say.

I agree but the reason I have changed my mind on this subject is because it takes SO much less time to become proficient with an x bow as to a verticle bow.

[growalot]

Really because I have seen "studies" showing that multiple births in deer show multiple sperm donors...hhhmmmm

[Buckmaster7600]

Studies have shown that bucks father only a few deer. Most doe come into heat around the same time and a buck will remain with ONE doe until she is out of heat.

Yes I do...but not with a cocked, scoped x-bow.

A doe will come into heat multiple times a year if she need to.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Studies have shown that bucks father only a few deer. Most doe come into heat around the same time and a buck will remain with ONE doe until she is out of heat.

 

Yes I do...but not with a cocked, scoped x-bow.

what studies are you referring to?

[Freytown]

what studies are you referring to?

 

It was in the PGC Games News...I'll try to find it.

[Freytown]

It was in the PGC Games News...I'll try to find it.

 

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=1740623&mode=2#TheTruthIsOutThere

 

 

Deer Sex in the 21^st Century: Part 2

By J.T. Fleegle

PGC Wildlife Biologist

LAST MONTH everything you thought you knew about the rut was turned on its ear. Tests confirm that does breed with more than one buck and 20 to 25 percent of the time twins aren't even full siblings. Has the deer world gone mad? How can dogma decades old just be tossed aside like yesterday's trash? It's simple. We call it science and research. Sometimes theories are supported, sometimes they aren't. Up until the turn of this century, DNA fingerprinting of deer was a pipe dream. It just didn't exist. All the research supported the theory of a male social hierarchy in which those at the top won the breeding rights with any and all does that crossed his path.

With the advent of DNA technology, however, now we can "see" what we couldn't before. This new knowledge may come as a shock to us, but deer sex has been happening this way for eons. It's just taken us 100 years to realize it. So what is going on if the "prince of the forest" is just another face in the crowd?

White-tailed bucks don't have harems or territories. They form a "tending bond" with a doe in estrous, staying with her for 24 to 48 hours. Does live in small groups and bucks chase individual does. The majority of does come into estrous at the same time. That means hundreds of thousands of does need to be bred during a 2-week period. Because bucks don't have harems or territories, they are stuck courting one doe at a time. That leaves the door wide open for all bucks to find one of those hundreds of thousands of does looking for a romantic encounter. No matter how dominant a buck is, he can be in only one place at one time.

Okay, but certainly the larger, more dominant bucks do more of the breeding. Sorry. An ongoing long-term study shows that most males only sire one fawn per season, and over their breeding lifespan, the average isn't even two. The most successful bucks still have few fawns, and breeding success cannot be predicted by antler characteristics. Yearling males, despite holding the lowest position on the deer dominance totem pole, even breed. In fact, yearlings are part of the breeding scene in all populations studied, even those with a large portion of males 3.5 years and older.

In the end, deer will keep having sex like they always have with no regard to our silly theories and assumptions. Everybody gets in on the action, so let the romance continue.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Freytown

[G-Man]

listen I was against them...for the reason that the DEC yet again botched the whole thing up...Wow was that a diplomatic statement!..any whoo not to put up or shut up ...sorta speak I did pick one up and shouldered it....first time ever I have picked up a scoped weapon and it was ....simply put perfect...I bought it on the spot...that was an expensive card reader I went in for...lol thank God for gander points.... near free.... but I digress....

I still say it should have a FULL ARCHERY course to be allowed in bow season...sorry but there is just more to bow hunting than an accurate shot..if the new stuff they have stuck in the gun course doesn't cover archery hunting.. than no ...I do not see how they have to have 2 days for archery and 2 days for gun yet x-bow is just a side note to the gun course...

ALL THAT SAID I COULD BE WRONG...it's been a long time since I took my two courses and sat with my kids through their 2 courses. How are they cvering xbow in that gun course??

Here is the reason to teach a crossbow course as an instructor you need to have 5 years experiance with said weapon, it hasn't been legal that long, so what can you do to use it , throw it in as a muzzleloader and make it legal implement for hunting, I expect a course to be in the archery within 2 years.. as well as full inclusion at that time.

[G-Man]

Over here in PA the percentage of the total buck harvest has grown from 10% to 40% during archery. Do you think that maybe the breeding will be impacted as this harvest grows? Everyone wants first crack at the bucks and this trend will hurt. Note: male + female = fawn. Remove either before the rut = zero fawn.

Yes if you want big bucks close. The season during the rut to all hunters...as for breeding a 6moth old button can breed an mature buck will only breed 3 to 5 doe, if he has to do more due to lack of other bucks he can expend to much energy and die as his reserves will not carry him thru winter if he is breeding doe that keep recycling every 28 days

[WNYBuckHunter]

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=1740623&mode=2#TheTruthIsOutThere

 

 

Deer Sex in the 21^st Century: Part 2

By J.T. Fleegle

PGC Wildlife Biologist

LAST MONTH everything you thought you knew about the rut was turned on its ear. Tests confirm that does breed with more than one buck and 20 to 25 percent of the time twins aren't even full siblings. Has the deer world gone mad? How can dogma decades old just be tossed aside like yesterday's trash? It's simple. We call it science and research. Sometimes theories are supported, sometimes they aren't. Up until the turn of this century, DNA fingerprinting of deer was a pipe dream. It just didn't exist. All the research supported the theory of a male social hierarchy in which those at the top won the breeding rights with any and all does that crossed his path.

With the advent of DNA technology, however, now we can "see" what we couldn't before. This new knowledge may come as a shock to us, but deer sex has been happening this way for eons. It's just taken us 100 years to realize it. So what is going on if the "prince of the forest" is just another face in the crowd?

White-tailed bucks don't have harems or territories. They form a "tending bond" with a doe in estrous, staying with her for 24 to 48 hours. Does live in small groups and bucks chase individual does. The majority of does come into estrous at the same time. That means hundreds of thousands of does need to be bred during a 2-week period. Because bucks don't have harems or territories, they are stuck courting one doe at a time. That leaves the door wide open for all bucks to find one of those hundreds of thousands of does looking for a romantic encounter. No matter how dominant a buck is, he can be in only one place at one time.

Okay, but certainly the larger, more dominant bucks do more of the breeding. Sorry. An ongoing long-term study shows that most males only sire one fawn per season, and over their breeding lifespan, the average isn't even two. The most successful bucks still have few fawns, and breeding success cannot be predicted by antler characteristics. Yearling males, despite holding the lowest position on the deer dominance totem pole, even breed. In fact, yearlings are part of the breeding scene in all populations studied, even those with a large portion of males 3.5 years and older.

In the end, deer will keep having sex like they always have with no regard to our silly theories and assumptions. Everybody gets in on the action, so let the romance continue.

 

The author left the fact that unbred does will come back into heat until they are bred.

 

[Buckmaster7600]

Here is the reason to teach a crossbow course as an instructor you need to have 5 years experiance with said weapon, it hasn't been legal that long, so what can you do to use it , throw it in as a muzzleloader and make it legal implement for hunting, I expect a course to be in the archery within 2 years.. as well as full inclusion at that time.

If that really is the reason than the training program needs a total revamp and anyone involved should demand it. That is the most half assed reasoning I have ever heard. When I was a weapons instructor in the marine corps they decided to put optics on are rifles we were given an owners manual and a week and had to teach a class in 2 weeks. A crossbow isn't ground breaking technology they are thousands of years old. If an instructor isn't willing to do a little research than he/she doesn't have any rights to be an instructor!

[Five Seasons]

I used to hate the ideas of XBOWS being allowed during archery seasons. After the amount of deer that I have hear of being wounded lately both on this sight and among friends with verticle bows. I feel that XBOWS could have changed this. It takes little to no practise to kill an animal with one. I think we as outdoorsman we owe it to the animal we are trying to kill to utilize the most efficient method available. I'm sure some will disagree as I would have a few months ago. But it is hard to argue that to become proficient with a verticle bow it takes shooting thousands of arrows annually, and some are not willing or able to do that. Now I know some will argue that mistakes will happen and I totally agree but I also know that the archers who shoot year round and shoot thousands of arrows a year are far less likely to wound an animal.

 

so the fault of humans is the fault of the weapon? Those who do not practice enough, take poor shots and make bad decisions shouldn't be blamed? It should be the weapon.

 

With that logic:

 

1. outlaw archery all together and make it rifle all the time

2. ban guns because some people use them incorrectly, for harm or have accidents with them due to carelesness

3. make cell phones illegal because some people text and drive

4. outlaw alcohol because some people can't handle it

 

 

for God's sakes, this country is doomed. Nobody wants to work hard for anything anymore. Where's the pill that allows me to lose weight without exercise or eating right already!

 

[Buckmaster7600]

so the fault of humans is the fault of the weapon? Those who do not practice enough, take poor shots and make bad decisions shouldn't be blamed? It should be the weapon.

With that logic:

1. outlaw archery all together and make it rifle all the time

2. ban guns because some people use them incorrectly, for harm or have accidents with them due to carelesness

3. make cell phones illegal because some people text and drive

4. outlaw alcohol because some people can't handle it

for God's sakes, this country is doomed. Nobody wants to work hard for anything anymore. Where's the pill that allows me to lose weight without exercise or eating right already!

Actaully the opposite. Trust me I'm the last one that wants a new law! I never said ban verticle bows! My point was actually making less laws with a full inclusion. I stated that I most likely will never use a crossbow again, however some if not most are not willing or able to put in the time to be proficient with a verticle bow and for the sake of the animal why not make up for their lack of proficiency with a more efficient weapon? Edited November 3, 2015 by Buckmaster7600

[Culvercreek hunt club]

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=1740623&mode=2#TheTruthIsOutThere

 

 

Deer Sex in the 21^st Century: Part 2

By J.T. Fleegle

PGC Wildlife Biologist

 

Okay, but certainly the larger, more dominant bucks do more of the breeding. Sorry. An ongoing long-term study shows that most males only sire one fawn per season, and over their breeding lifespan, the average isn't even two. The most successful bucks still have few fawns, and breeding success cannot be predicted by antler characteristics. Yearling males, despite holding the lowest position on the deer dominance totem pole, even breed. In fact, yearlings are part of the breeding scene in all populations studied, even those with a large portion of males 3.5 years and older.

were there any footnotes to this long term study. I just can't get that math to work or we wouldn't have the large   population increases we have seen in many of the Western NY WMU's. The average for a buck to sire a fawn over his entire breeding life isn't 2?

 

when they say the does come into heat at the "same time" it is generally within a 2 week window.  (so 14 days.). if the average is 48 hours tending and a day to find another. that is almost 5 does breed. Add into that the possibilities of multiple cycles. 2 maybe 3. could be 10-15 per buck?

Edited November 3, 2015 by Culvercreek hunt club

[LET EM GROW]

Heres something a bit funny yet wrong.. Not sure who here is on Facebook, and has heard of the "NY hunt club - A group for the NY hunter" page

 

Some quite "strange" questions asked on that page but..

One asked what the X-Bow start date was for this year, because he was "confused" thinking it was supposed to be the 1st of November... 

 

Wont say names but one person to answer/respond to this persons question is or was anyways, a certified archery safety course instructor and has been for years!.. he stated that "it started the 1st brother" .........

 

Seriously!!?? 

 

[jjb4900]

Heres something a bit funny yet wrong.. Not sure who here is on Facebook, and has heard of the "NY hunt club - A group for the NY hunter" page

 

Some quite "strange" questions asked on that page but..

One asked what the X-Bow start date was for this year, because he was "confused" thinking it was supposed to be the 1st of November... 

 

Wont say names but one person to answer/respond to this persons question is or was anyways, a certified archery safety course instructor and has been for years!.. he stated that "it started the 1st brother" .........

 

Seriously!!?? 

wonder what happens when they report these out of season kills?? and some people blame this on trickery used by DEC, really??

Edited November 3, 2015 by jjb4900

[Five Seasons]

Actaully the opposite. Trust me I'm the last one that wants a new law! I never said ban verticle bows! My point was actually making less laws with a full inclusion. I stated that I most likely will never use a crossbow again, however some if not most are not willing or able to put in the time to be proficient with a verticle bow and for the sake of the animal why not make up for their lack of proficiency with a more efficient weapon?

 

you specifically said in your first sentence that if we were using x-bows, lest deer would be wounded. Do you not see the correlation to just banning archery or vertical bows altogether then? If you don't want wounded deer, or you want to decrease the percentage why allow them at all?

 

If you're not proficient with your vertical than you shouldn't be in the woods. That's not the fault of the weapon, it's the hunter.

[Buckmaster7600]

you specifically said in your first sentence that if we were using x-bows, lest deer would be wounded. Do you not see the correlation to just banning archery or vertical bows altogether then? If you don't want wounded deer, or you want to decrease the percentage why allow them at all?

If you're not proficient with your vertical than you shouldn't be in the woods. That's not the fault of the weapon, it's the hunter.

I agree with the bottom part however you and I think like that but many do not so why not give them another "easier" avenue. As far as banning verticle bows if many of the "hunters" that don't have time to practise or that just don't had the ability to use XBOWS all bow season they would be stupid not because their success rate would go up.

I don't see where I said "if WE were?"

Edited November 3, 2015 by Buckmaster7600

[Billdogge]

Full Inclusion!!!!

[G-Man]

If that really is the reason than the training program needs a total revamp and anyone involved should demand it. That is the most half assed reasoning I have ever heard. When I was a weapons instructor in the marine corps they decided to put optics on are rifles we were given an owners manual and a week and had to teach a class in 2 weeks. A crossbow isn't ground breaking technology they are thousands of years old. If an instructor isn't willing to do a little research than he/she doesn't have any rights to be an instructor!

Unfortunately it's the legislature law the dec doesn't make up the stuff it has to follow..