Shoot young bucks to let older ones mature

[Trial153]

I appreciate your comments NFA-ADK. Here is a better photo. I still think the closer buck, the 3-point is a yearling. Being so close to the camera, the younger buck appears larger than it is. Like when we hold fish out close to the camera so they look bigger...lol But it is not 100% outside the realm of possibility that it could be a 2.5... though slim IMO. But the point still remains...which one would you shoot?

I'd shoot nether. They are both immature. You have no idea about potential based on yearling appearance.

[Buckstopshere]

23 hours ago, Trial153 said:

I'd shoot nether. They are both immature. You have no idea about potential based on yearling appearance.

I did pass on both of them. The point is shoot the yearling because the 8 pt. will really be a stud the following year. IMO there is little doubt which of the two bucks in the photo would be the superior animal the following year.

[NFA-ADK]

On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 11:52 AM, Buckstopshere said:

I appreciate your comments NFA-ADK. Here is a better photo. I still think the closer buck, the 3-point is a yearling. Being so close to the camera, the younger buck appears larger than it is. Like when we hold fish out close to the camera so they look bigger...lol But it is not 100% outside the realm of possibility that it could be a 2.5... though slim IMO. But the point still remains...which one would you shoot?

These are both young deer, both would get a pass by me, and if I could recognize them next year they would get a pass.  Nothing wrong with shooting them if you want to but they are both off limits to me.  Could be yearlings, look slightly larger in other pics.  The one in front looks like a yearling to me but all 3 could be yearlings.

[NFA-ADK]

Stubby68 Wrote:

"             Then how do you explain being able to see more deer years ago then now? How about the fact that good bucks were common back then? Like I said back then good bucks were seen and shot every day. They never ended up being the talk of the hunting town. Hunters didn't  get giddy  as a school girl about seeing a good buck like they do today.Why ? There were a lot of them. Never heard a hunter say they didn't see any deer on an outing either. How many posts have there been on this site alone from hunters saying they saw nothing? Back then we shot what ever never passing buck or doe to wait for a bigger one. Any passing on a shot was do to us deciding we didn't  feel like dragging that day and we new we could get them when we did feel it.

            Up until the mind set of trophy hunting we shot what ever when ever.  Never having a problem of getting good bucks and doe every day and year. "

 

NFA-ADK Wrote:

I can not say why your area sees less deer now, could be new neighbors that shoot anything, larger hunting population causing more deer to be taken, poachers, road and winter kills.  I am not sure where you hunt but many factors can contribute to low population and poor age structure.  If you really think that trophy hunting is the problem I just think you are looking in the wrong direction.  Trophy hunters are very specific on what they shoot so many 2 year old deer get a pass.  Take the opposite approach and bad things can happen and ruin an area quickly, like having your 10 buddies come up to you house and take 7 bucks and 9 doe or having 2-3 neighbors do the same more than once a year!  This I have seen first hand how bad an area can become when to many deer are taken, especially doe, if you kill to many you will have very few new deer to hunt!  No big deal if the population can handle that many deer taken and sometimes in certain high population area's this is a good thing providing more food for those that survive.  Have this type of scenario happen more than one time in a year and with multiple properties and you will see an adverse affect on your population! 

Ask yourself this question:  What have I done to improve my area for deer? 

Stop hunting on my land for a year or 2, many laugh when I bring this up!  Hunt it less or limit the hunting presser you put on the land.  Limit your land to buck only with a 8 pt or better minimum?

Plant food for the harsher months?  Provide sanctuary that you stay out of year round?  Clear cut for natural browse, set up bedding area?

Again not sure of your area, how much property you have access to or how you hunt the land and how many others are on your land hunting it or any improvements made to help with the problems.

I am willing to bet you are close to NYC these area's tend to get a lot of presser from hunters.  Close I mean within 2 hours. 

 

 

[gjs4]

Totally agree with getting a pass for 2 yo but not by shooting little bucks...a 2 yr moratorium on buck hunting would blow he minds of most hunters. I back ARs simply because they increase safety with target id and cut down on the slobbish gun drive culture that makes a mess of hunting here


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[gjs4]

I just would like to make note that there has been some PRETTY NICE bucks taken in the state this year and I have seen a lot of them posted on this site. One thing we seem to be forgetting is the fact that Little bucks (with little racks) breed little bucks. Your bigger racked bucks regardless of age will breed bigger racked bucks.
 We have had a big bodied four point around here and if I get a chance to take him from the gene pool I will. He is a mature buck but does not and probably has not ever had a decent rack. Every doe that he breeds this year that has a buck fawn will end up with a small rack like him.
 There is a difference between shooting young bucks with small racks and shooting older bucks with small racks.

Sorry to crap on turkey plate here but genetics are NOT the issue in NY, it is age or lack there of it. Most, including someone who thinks the big bucks get posted here, on FB or in NYON have no idea what's here or falls.. Braggarts, poachers and the one time right spot pumpkin heroes share big buck kills..which rarely are older than 3 for the record.


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[the blur]

Be real, hunters  are shooting people.   Hunters are shooting DEC officers,   Hunters are shooting dogs.   Do you think they will pass on anything what so ever ????????????????

[stubby68]

On 12/2/2016 at 4:36 PM, NFA-ADK said:

Stubby68 Wrote:

"             Then how do you explain being able to see more deer years ago then now? How about the fact that good bucks were common back then? Like I said back then good bucks were seen and shot every day. They never ended up being the talk of the hunting town. Hunters didn't  get giddy  as a school girl about seeing a good buck like they do today.Why ? There were a lot of them. Never heard a hunter say they didn't see any deer on an outing either. How many posts have there been on this site alone from hunters saying they saw nothing? Back then we shot what ever never passing buck or doe to wait for a bigger one. Any passing on a shot was do to us deciding we didn't  feel like dragging that day and we new we could get them when we did feel it.

            Up until the mind set of trophy hunting we shot what ever when ever.  Never having a problem of getting good bucks and doe every day and year. "

 

NFA-ADK Wrote:

I can not say why your area sees less deer now, could be new neighbors that shoot anything, larger hunting population causing more deer to be taken, poachers, road and winter kills.  I am not sure where you hunt but many factors can contribute to low population and poor age structure.  If you really think that trophy hunting is the problem I just think you are looking in the wrong direction.  Trophy hunters are very specific on what they shoot so many 2 year old deer get a pass.  Take the opposite approach and bad things can happen and ruin an area quickly, like having your 10 buddies come up to you house and take 7 bucks and 9 doe or having 2-3 neighbors do the same more than once a year!  This I have seen first hand how bad an area can become when to many deer are taken, especially doe, if you kill to many you will have very few new deer to hunt!  No big deal if the population can handle that many deer taken and sometimes in certain high population area's this is a good thing providing more food for those that survive.  Have this type of scenario happen more than one time in a year and with multiple properties and you will see an adverse affect on your population! 

Ask yourself this question:  What have I done to improve my area for deer? 

Stop hunting on my land for a year or 2, many laugh when I bring this up!  Hunt it less or limit the hunting presser you put on the land.  Limit your land to buck only with a 8 pt or better minimum?

Plant food for the harsher months?  Provide sanctuary that you stay out of year round?  Clear cut for natural browse, set up bedding area?

Again not sure of your area, how much property you have access to or how you hunt the land and how many others are on your land hunting it or any improvements made to help with the problems.

I am willing to bet you are close to NYC these area's tend to get a lot of presser from hunters.  Close I mean within 2 hours. 

 

 

              You really didn't  read what I wrote. Back when things were good we all shot anything that walked by. high numbers of deer being taken every year. 5 or 6 a day was very common. Can't  say these high kill numbers hurt the herd at all. We never saw a problem with deer numbers until trophy hunting,qdm, and qdma  became so popular. With most being meat hunters we were able to keep the herd balanced very well. Generations of huntING like this and every year the herd was just as big as the year before. If not sometimes better.Now you could say all this killing is what hurt the herd, however the herd never started shrinking until the selective hunting generation came in with there hopes of getting big decorations for there little man caves.

           As for where I hunt and live it is western NY. No where near that cesspool on the east side of the state. Some guys will say our numbers are high because they see 5 deer in a field at the same time. I will say it is good when I can see 40 deer in every field every time I make the 25 mile trip to my father's 3 times a week like I use to be able to.

             As for new neighbors there are none land has been owned be same people for many many years. We have 400 acers in one plot and 90 in another with a neighbor in between. Total of 7 hunters on all 490 acers. We and our neighbors have started to see a incline in numbers since we all stopped the selective hunting and went back to the old ways. Only one who hasn't is the hunting club and they only hunt opening weekend. No problems with poachers never has been. Meat hunting worked in the past it can work in the future if we can just get people to give up the need for decorations. 

[chrisw]

              You really didn't  read what I wrote. Back when things were good we all shot anything that walked by. high numbers of deer being taken every year. 5 or 6 a day was very common. Can't  say these high kill numbers hurt the herd at all. We never saw a problem with deer numbers until trophy hunting,qdm, and qdma  became so popular. With most being meat hunters we were able to keep the herd balanced very well. Generations of huntING like this and every year the herd was just as big as the year before. If not sometimes better.Now you could say all this killing is what hurt the herd, however the herd never started shrinking until the selective hunting generation came in with there hopes of getting big decorations for there little man caves.
           As for where I hunt and live it is western NY. No where near that cesspool on the east side of the state. Some guys will say our numbers are high because they see 5 deer in a field at the same time. I will say it is good when I can see 40 deer in every field every time I make the 25 mile trip to my father's 3 times a week like I use to be able to.
             As for new neighbors there are none land has been owned be same people for many many years. We have 400 acers in one plot and 90 in another with a neighbor in between. Total of 7 hunters on all 490 acers. We and our neighbors have started to see a incline in numbers since we all stopped the selective hunting and went back to the old ways. Only one who hasn't is the hunting club and they only hunt opening weekend. No problems with poachers never has been. Meat hunting worked in the past it can work in the future if we can just get people to give up the need for decorations. 

Wow. Very scientific theory you have here.... So the people who shot anything and everything aren't to blame, its the selective people. Do you realize how many factors affect deer herd sizes? You have zero facts that make any sense, logically or biologically, other than " the guy who wants older age deer did it." Get off your soapbox.

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[Steve D]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 7:26 PM, gjs4 said:

Sorry to crap on turkey plate here but genetics are NOT the issue in NY, it is age or lack there of it. Most, including someone who thinks the big bucks get posted here, on FB or in NYON have no idea what's here or falls.. Braggarts, poachers and the one time right spot pumpkin heroes share big buck kills..which rarely are older than 3 for the record.


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What????

[gjs4]

Perhaps there is a coloring book on why deer racks get bigger in size that we can buy for you struggling with the point of NY hunters' lack self control is the primary reason we don't have older and bigger bucks.


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[Culvercreek hunt club]

I have a friend who is hunting a property that is being heavily managed here in WNY. The owner is taking a little different approach to the friends and family that are hunting it. The adjoining properties are starting to get on board with the approach as well I guess. It is in an area with pretty liberal doe permits being available.

Shoot whatever buck you want to shoot, but every buck taken MUST have a full shoulder mount done. So if you are willing to belly up the $$ and want the mount then squeeze the trigger. 

[Buckstopshere]

1 hour ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I have a friend who is hunting a property that is being heavily managed here in WNY. The owner is taking a little different approach to the friends and family that are hunting it. The adjoining properties are starting to get on board with the approach as well I guess. It is in an area with pretty liberal doe permits being available.

Shoot whatever buck you want to shoot, but every buck taken MUST have a full shoulder mount done. So if you are willing to belly up the $$ and want the mount then squeeze the trigger. 

Great for the taxidermy business! But sounds like high grading management.

For your reading pleasure...a study of whitetail buck populations, not one animal with exceptional genetics.

 

Understanding Spike Buck harvest .pdf

[growalot]

That was a good read...

[NFA-ADK]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 10:33 PM, stubby68 said:

              You really didn't  read what I wrote. Back when things were good we all shot anything that walked by. high numbers of deer being taken every year. 5 or 6 a day was very common. Can't  say these high kill numbers hurt the herd at all. We never saw a problem with deer numbers until trophy hunting,qdm, and qdma  became so popular. With most being meat hunters we were able to keep the herd balanced very well. Generations of huntING like this and every year the herd was just as big as the year before. If not sometimes better.Now you could say all this killing is what hurt the herd, however the herd never started shrinking until the selective hunting generation came in with there hopes of getting big decorations for there little man caves.

           As for where I hunt and live it is western NY. No where near that cesspool on the east side of the state. Some guys will say our numbers are high because they see 5 deer in a field at the same time. I will say it is good when I can see 40 deer in every field every time I make the 25 mile trip to my father's 3 times a week like I use to be able to.

             As for new neighbors there are none land has been owned be same people for many many years. We have 400 acers in one plot and 90 in another with a neighbor in between. Total of 7 hunters on all 490 acers. We and our neighbors have started to see a incline in numbers since we all stopped the selective hunting and went back to the old ways. Only one who hasn't is the hunting club and they only hunt opening weekend. No problems with poachers never has been. Meat hunting worked in the past it can work in the future if we can just get people to give up the need for decorations. 

Stubby68

So from what you stated the more deer we shoot the more deer we will see?  (Just like the old days.)  And if you pass deer and become selective on what you shoot causing less deer to be shot you will have less deer?  And I live in a cesspool?  I guess I am done talking to you Stubby68, I thought we could have a normal conversation but based on your logic and the fact that you need to demoralize someone to make you feel better makes me believe you have some issue apparently more than just not knowing about deer biology and herd management.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

45 minutes ago, Buckstopshere said:

Great for the taxidermy business! But sounds like high grading management.

For your reading pleasure...a study of whitetail buck populations, not one animal with exceptional genetics.

 

Understanding Spike Buck harvest .pdf

High grading management? Keep your pen raised studies. While they are beneficial for understanding how the genetics are arranged in the Whitetail they are not how it happens in a wild population. That study says nothing about the actual health of the deer in the study(I would assume good based on the protein % being fed). There is one factor and one factor alone that has the biggest impact falling short on potential. It isn't Ag crops. it isn't genetics, it isn't mast crops, or any of the other laundry list. It is AGE. Do all the studies you want but when the majority of the bucks in your area don't make it past 1.5 years old, genetics don't mean squat. lol

[Culvercreek hunt club]

As a byproduct, in a healthy WILD herd you can expect these averages. Obviously there are factors such as severity of winters that we contend with but this gives and idea. And based on the numbers from the penned study it would appear to agree that the Forks would have better potential that a spike at first glance but in as wild herd there can also be the impact of a late breeding and late birth added into the mix. Personally I think the evaluation of a 2.5 year old lets a lot of that fluctuation fade out and gives a better idea of what can happen to a specific deer. If that makes sense. 

[Buckstopshere]

 

22 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

High grading management? Keep your pen raised studies. While they are beneficial for understanding how the genetics are arranged in the Whitetail they are not how it happens in a wild population. That study says nothing about the actual health of the deer in the study(I would assume good based on the protein % being fed). There is one factor and one factor alone that has the biggest impact falling short on potential. It isn't Ag crops. it isn't genetics, it isn't mast crops, or any of the other laundry list. It is AGE. Do all the studies you want but when the majority of the bucks in your area don't make it past 1.5 years old, genetics don't mean squat. lol

Well, we disagree on that point which you made that age is the "one factor and one factor alone" that influences the potential of a buck. In the peer reviewed Kerr study and others it is shown that with high grading (shooting off the best young bucks to let the spikes do the breeding) will tend to produce smaller bucks down the road. And it just makes commonsense.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Buckstopshere

[Buckstopshere]

15 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

As a byproduct, in a healthy WILD herd you can expect these averages. Obviously there are factors such as severity of winters that we contend with but this gives and idea. And based on the numbers from the penned study it would appear to agree that the Forks would have better potential that a spike at first glance but in as wild herd there can also be the impact of a late breeding and late birth added into the mix. Personally I think the evaluation of a 2.5 year old lets a lot of that fluctuation fade out and gives a better idea of what can happen to a specific deer. If that makes sense. 

That jump in the graph from 2.5 to 3.5 is the largest jump, but after 4.5 the curve tends to flatten out. So many of our wild junkyard, mutt bucks will never be much, even if they have age. And those guys are doing a lot of the breeding.  If they hit 3.5 and are sub-100 B&C points, they will never be much according to the graph you posted. The "protect the spike buck at all costs mentality" is hurting our buck potential.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

14 minutes ago, Buckstopshere said:

 

Well, we disagree on that point which you made that age is the "one factor and one factor alone" that influences the potential of a buck. In the peer reviewed Kerr study and others it is shown that with high grading (shooting off the best young bucks to let the spikes do the breeding) will tend to produce smaller bucks down the road. And it just makes commonsense.

I don't care what genetics a deer has, if it dies at 1.5 what difference does it make? Personally i am looking for a more mature buck. It could have half his rack busted off and it makes no difference to me really. Now I would love to have a big framed 10 but my first goal is the 3.5 or better. So in your comment it doesn't fit how I hunt of even about the first property I mentioned where you commented on. I don't know where you hunt of how you hunt of what you hunt. Where I am I rarely see a spike. some fork horns but the majority of 1.5's I see are small 6- 8 pointers. between the 4 properties I hunted this year I had 16 different 1.5 year olds within range that could have been taken. 1 spike and two  4 pointers the rest were bigger. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

10 minutes ago, Buckstopshere said:

That jump in the graph from 2.5 to 3.5 is the largest jump, but after 4.5 the curve tends to flatten out. So many of our wild junkyard, mutt bucks will never be much, even if they have age. And those guys are doing a lot of the breeding.  If they hit 3.5 and are sub-100 B&C points, they will never be much according to the graph you posted. The "protect the spike buck at all costs mentality" is hurting our buck potential.

Did you study with Stubby?

[Trial153]

Did you study with Stubby?

He must of..because he can't ever read the graph. Pretty sad really.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

6 minutes ago, Trial153 said:

 

He must of..because he can't ever read the graph.

 

because the biggest jump is from 1.5 to 2.5

Edited December 6, 2016 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Buckstopshere]

7 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I don't care what genetics a deer has, if it dies at 1.5 what difference does it make? Personally i am looking for a more mature buck. It could have half his rack busted off and it makes no difference to me really. Now I would love to have a big framed 10 but my first goal is the 3.5 or better. So in your comment it doesn't fit how I hunt of even about the first property I mentioned where you commented on. I don't know where you hunt of how you hunt of what you hunt. Where I am I rarely see a spike. some fork horns but the majority of 1.5's I see are small 6- 8 pointers. between the 4 properties I hunted this year I had 16 different 1.5 year olds within range that could have been taken. 1 spike and two  4 pointers the rest were bigger. 

I too like to hunt for the older buck. I too hunt four properties with bow, rifle and soon muzzleloader because I have all my tags filled. Where I hunt, it is different than you. I saw 15 different spikes and forks for every little racked buck I passed. Here, we are overrun with big and little forks and spikes, and many with no horns at all. I know one woodlot where a big, 2.5 or 3.5 is the stud...and his antlers are broken off! . Lots of hunters here, everyone passes the spike and forks, but if a little buck has six points...it's dead. How can we see bigger bucks here with that mentality?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

6 minutes ago, Buckstopshere said:

I too like to hunt for the older buck. I too hunt four properties with bow, rifle and soon muzzleloader because I have all my tags filled. Where I hunt, it is different than you. I saw 15 different spikes and forks for every little racked buck I passed. Here, we are overrun with big and little forks and spikes, and many with no horns at all. I know one woodlot where a big, 2.5 or 3.5 is the stud...and his antlers are broken off! . Lots of hunters here, everyone passes the spike and forks, but if a little buck has six points...it's dead. How can we see bigger bucks here with that mentality?

teach them to look at the body rather than the rack. Just up the game to 2.5 and they will be surprised with the outcome and fill their freezer faster.