SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[Culvercreek hunt club]

11 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

If it came from what I think it did from DEC, then I can't answer that. Reason being a lot went into it. All stuff we've discussed here is the past surveys, buck management zones, failed management attempts, etc collectively a model and then a decision was made. Whether it's a poor decision for any respective unit is another thing. Some stuff must have carried more weight than others to make that determination.

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The legislative approach is NOT the way to go about this if we take your comments as fact concerning their decisions on this. In any plan there needs to be a science based agency that has the authority to implement plans, evaluate results and make adjustments. The NY model with the Law makers in it up to their A$$e$ isn't the right approach. It takes that Albany monster too long to react to anything given all their conflicting financial ties. 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

2 hours ago, Trial153 said:

 

 

Great let's go one buck tag per license to be used in any season. Cut the regular firearms season back to a statewide 9 days staring dec 1 yearly. Forget any AR. Bring enough rope for a comfortable hanging when you propose it.

 

 

Yeah Man...And no guns in the Rut. 9 days of gun in October.Late muzzle season maybe.  Keep their Ar if this would go thru.

[dbHunterNY]

Anyone can propose a bill in that role. Just because it is written means they used anything other than political posturing to do so. Slowhand nailed it.
The SAFE act was probably one of the biggest acts Cuomo will ever "organize/push" through legislation and the legislators couldn't even get that right (what they see as right). Leaving out the police's ability to carry their necessary firearms...give me a break. Now we see WMUs in the overpopulation areas in and some out and we're supposed to believe that it was based on science? Please.
It's as simple as Slowhand described. Poorly written. Poorly executed. Typical of where we are today here in NY.

I can't believe you're still comparing this to the SAFE Act. lol I do think this AR bill should have an expiration date after several years. The way the current AR are just walked away from is just irresponsible, despite the general hunting population where they are seem to be happy to keep them.

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[Five Seasons]

1 hour ago, stubby68 said:

I'm not a gotta get a buck kind of guy but I will not waste anything. Paying for a buck tag and not getting one is a waste. I do not like eating older bucks and will not shoot one for the decorations on there head. Why is the bow tag either sex and the tag for gun buck only? Make my tag either sex and I will take a doe with it instead of a young buck. Does anyone know why the bow tag is either sex while the gun tag is buck only?  I have always wondered about that. I bet there are a lot of meat hunters who would fill that tag with a doe instead of a buck.

in most places you can shoot at least 5 doe. If you shot 5 good eating doe and no horns, you still feel that's a waste?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

31 minutes ago, Belo said:

in most places you can shoot at least 5 doe. If you shot 5 good eating doe and no horns, you still feel that's a waste?

Heck, if you ML or Bow hunt the late season that regular season buck tag can be filled with a doe. Where I am regular season buck tag, antlerless and either sex for bow ML, 2 doe permits in round one, 2 doe permits in round two and 2 transfers. That is 9 deer and never have to see a horn. 

[dbHunterNY]

The legislative approach is NOT the way to go about this if we take your comments as fact concerning their decisions on this. In any plan there needs to be a science based agency that has the authority to implement plans, evaluate results and make adjustments. The NY model with the Law makers in it up to their A$$e$ isn't the right approach. It takes that Albany monster too long to react to anything given all their conflicting financial ties. 

DEC isn't quick to roll either. They're just as political and stuck in the mud with what they can and can't do. As I said in other posts legislation like this should have a date at which it dies to allow for reassessment. We both know deer management should be something that evolves over time to address the current situation. Despite it was irresponsible to have AR's where they are now indefinitely, they haven't seemed to ruin the deer hunting. Per a report DEC actually did do in 2011, "A majority of hunters in the pilot AR units prefer that the program continue".

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[Steve D]

1 hour ago, The_Real_TCIII said:

I dont follow. Im wondering how poaching effects the buck take. Spotlighting, filling wives,girlfriends,kids tags, not tagging etc

My point being....more bigger bucks would be getting hit on the road since they were able to grow bigger due to antler restrictions on hunting. As far as filling others tags...who cares. If someone is issued a tag and they pass it on to another hunter I could care less. Not tagging/reporting or poaching are other issues that aren't going away with antler restrictions.

 As far as spotlighting it is legal and has no effect on the deer herd unless someone is shooting (poaching) with a spot light which as we all know is illegal.

How is a bill like this going to protect "yearling" does along with yearling bucks?? Doesn't sound like it is well thought through and we are over analyzing what may or may not happen as far a future regulations.

[tuckersdaddy]

Great..... more deer left dead in the woods because it didnt meet the 3 or 4 on one side.... wtf... cant the state just let us hunt...

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[The_Real_TCIII]

35 minutes ago, Steve D said:

My point being....more bigger bucks would be getting hit on the road since they were able to grow bigger due to antler restrictions on hunting. As far as filling others tags...who cares. If someone is issued a tag and they pass it on to another hunter I could care less. Not tagging/reporting or poaching are other issues that aren't going away with antler restrictions.

 As far as spotlighting it is legal and has no effect on the deer herd unless someone is shooting (poaching) with a spot light which as we all know is illegal.

How is a bill like this going to protect "yearling" does along with yearling bucks?? Doesn't sound like it is well thought through and we are over analyzing what may or may not happen as far a future regulations.

Youre completely missing my point. Im wondering if we'd feel the need any kind of AR at all if everyone followed the rules. No bucks taken at night, nobody exceeding their limit etc. I dont think anyone can answer it but its interesting to think about.

[dbHunterNY]

1 hour ago, tuckersdaddy said:

Great..... more deer left dead in the woods because it didnt meet the 3 or 4 on one side.... wtf... cant the state just let us hunt...

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if you know of deer being left in the woods dead for that reason you've got bigger issues than any regulation or law that's being passed.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

49 minutes ago, The_Real_TCIII said:

Youre completely missing my point. Im wondering if we'd feel the need any kind of AR at all if everyone followed the rules. No bucks taken at night, nobody exceeding their limit etc. I dont think anyone can answer it but its interesting to think about.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if you put more/bigger deer into an area than it had before, the likelihood of an increased in poached deer will go up. We've all seen what some of these folks will do for a big rack. I'm not saying not to do this becasue of this reason but I bet seeing a big 10 in their light will draw a shot faster than a small 4 pointer. 

[growalot]

Then watch the lock down on properties...the owners that have allowed hunters on their lands...only have to deal with a couple of BS issue and watch how fast all hunting stops. Yes I've seen it here and people thought my posted signs were close...Well we now have properties with signs  every 20 ft..Wall papered signs...We are in one of the big buck areas, poaching has been a problem here way before I moved here over 20 yrs ago...

Edited March 1, 2017 by growalot

[tuckersdaddy]

if you know of deer being left in the woods dead for that reason you've got bigger issues than any regulation or law that's being passed.

We find them dead from people too lazy to get out of thier stand to track it... See it every year... if it doesnt fall down it was a miss... all while emptying the gun. Driving back from getting lunch this year we saw a blood trail.. not hard pools of blood in fresh snow on both sides of the road. We got out and started tracking ( state land) and figured out that it was a group of 4 deer, 1 large set of tracks, 2 medium and 1 small. after a few yard it was appearent the small one was shot. (proven later when it was put in the freezer). So come to find out the group passed infront of a stand, the hunter unloaded (5 shells ont the ground) hit the small one and when he figured it out, he stopped tracking. So yes it will increase.

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[Two Track]

6 hours ago, Belo said:

There is nothing wrong with your view. But I do hope you're not naïve enough to think you're not in the minority.

I love horns. Wont hide it. But I haven't shot a buck in 2 years because I refused to shoot yearlings. Plenty of doe meat in the freezer and that's just fine. I have an uncle who will pass mature breeder doe and shoot a 3 point because he "has to get his buck". He is not the only guy who does that, we all know a few. And he's within his rights to do so. Some day I hope the ball busting and guilting I give him will "educate" him to let the little guys walk

Belo,

I do enjoy seeing a large rack on a buck, but there just aren't that many around.  Sometimes its age, some of it can be genetics, some of is the environmental factors (not enough food, minerals, etc).  Not everywhere can support large deer.  Some people just don't understand that and try to regulate it.  Its like the deer crossing sign, moving the sign does not change where the deer cross the road (as it happens they cross into my neighborhood 50 yards before the deer crossing sign)

I have the antlers of my two bucks from before I moved to NY, but I don't hunt for the largest antlers or go for yearlings.  My family never has.  It was meat on the table.  When I was 3-4 years old, my dad's first deer is what put meat on the table for that winter - he was out of work, a couple years out of grad school, only a part-time job and with a pregnant wife.  That's where my views come from.

I figure free-ranging, anti-biotic-free meat is healthier when you have family members that are sensitive to the grain-fed, hormone injected grocery store meat and milk.

You really don't want a 6-point of bigger deer to impact a car - over $17000 in damage to my father-in-laws new 2017 car.  He hit it in Nov while driving in Pa 11:00 PM in a 65 mph zone.  Car looked fine from the driver's side.  The passenger side, hood, grill, and left-side lights and left side of bumper, totally another story.  Had the car for 3-4 weeks - then in the repair shop for 6 weeks(mostly waiting for parts).

[dbHunterNY]

why is it everyone posting on here against antler restrictions makes a comment they don't shoot yearling bucks?  is everyone on the same page that this only protects a portion of the yearling bucks and barely anything older right? for the love of freedom of choice will somebody just come out and say your against antler restrictions and you shoot any legal buck. lol

[Trial153]

why is it everyone posting on here against antler restrictions makes a comment they don't shoot yearling bucks?  is everyone on the same page that this only protects a portion of the yearling bucks and barely anything older right? for the love of freedom of choice will somebody just come out and say your against antler restrictions and you shoot any legal buck. lol

Because most of them shoot the first buck they see, then use their wife's tag on it and then hunt the rest of the year, waiting for a big one. Then they cap The first scrub they see on the last weekend and tell their buddies how they tagged out.

Or maybe none of the hunters who kill the 40 plus % of Yearling bucks don't have Internet? After all they are hunting to feed their families could afford Internet.

[stubby68]

7 hours ago, Belo said:

in most places you can shoot at least 5 doe. If you shot 5 good eating doe and no horns, you still feel that's a waste?

If a tag I paid for does not get used then yes. Most not all. Some places you are lucky to get one. Some places you only get 2 doe tags. Not everyone gets 5 doe tags. If you only hunt gun then you can only get 4. 2 regular and 2 left over. That's if you hunt in an area with leftovers. With a bow you can get 2 doe tags and thenot have a either sex tag. I don't see why the gun tag can't be either sex.  Then even if you got denied a extra doe tag you could still shoot a doe instead of that young buck. You do not think paying for something then never using it is a waste? Would you pay for a new bow then leave it in the safe and never use it? Why pay for a tag and not fill it. I buy my tags to fill my freezer that is the only thing I need them for. I get to the woods all the time for free don't need to pay for that . I just can not stand spending money for things I get no use out of. Just how I am.  

[growalot]

You aren't the only one that thinks that...ie...go look at the cross bow harvest thread...guys payed their 30 bucks for the privilege to use a cross bow during bow season...Did it look like that money was about to go  to waste?I think not...

[nyantler]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 2:59 PM, phade said:

No need for it - education is clearly working. Look at the harvest trends for the past 10 years.

I think this is an important point...

[Trial153]

Yep it's going through the roof lol. DEC is stating a five year increase of less then 5%. Keep in mind that this has only been measured from when...?.....well when AR units were implemented. What would these number look like if AR were taken out of the avg? Most likely the same as the pervious 20 years. You want the same result keep doing the same thing.

% Buck Take ≥ 2.5 Years Old

2010 ....44.9%
2011 .....45.8%
2012....43.7%
2013.....48.2%
2014....51.8 %
2015 ...52.8%

Are ARs the be all end all? No. Are there better regulation changes? Absolutely. However the push back on them will be even greater. Unfortunately we are dealing with dimwits so we're forced to take baby steps.
You want results go to:
1) One buck only tag for the entire season.
2) No either sex tags
3) non transferable DMPs that are unit specific.
4) 9 or 10 day state wide regular season after the rut.

All of these implementations would be better in the long run then AR however the same hunters that are crying in here would cry their eyes out. So your stuck with either the status quo or half ass AR's and we continue to keep NY deer hunting near the bottom of the barrel compared to the rest of the country ( except the NE states which do an even worse job then NY...hard to believe).

[NFA-ADK]

Another rule that is not needed, has no scientific fact and is based off self interest of having more big bucks to hunt.  Even as a self proclaimed big buck hunter I think this is just another law that is not needed.  Could it make hunting safer, SURE and that is a big selling point for your representatives to push it through, otherwise I just feel it has no merit.

Restricting hunters is a bad thing and NYS deer population has no major issues with how the season is working now.   2 Buck tags get the state more money because they are separate tags so their is your answer to that questions of why 2 buck tags and it is not going away because the state would lose money. 

Simply put I know many bad hunters who just want to shoot anything!  Add more restrictions and it becomes a lesson in futility they end up giving up on.  Restrictions make it harder on any hunter who is not skilled or is restricted to certain area or land.  I would rather have happy meat hunters and inexperienced hunters than upsetting them because "no 8 pointers came in today but I saw 5 bucks. "

Choices are better, restrictions suck, let them hunt! 

 

[Buckmaster7600]

Yep it's going through the roof lol. DEC is stating a five year increase of less then 5%. Keep in mind that this has only been measured from when...?.....well when AR units were implemented. What would these number look like if AR were taken out of the avg? Most likely the same as the pervious 20 years. You want the same result keep doing the same thing.

% Buck Take ≥ 2.5 Years Old

2010 ....44.9%

2011 .....45.8%

2012....43.7%

2013.....48.2%

2014....51.8 %

2015 ...52.8%

Are ARs the be all end all? No. Are there better regulation changes? Absolutely. However the push back on them will be even greater. Unfortunately we are dealing with dimwits so we're forced to take baby steps.

You want results go to:

1) One buck only tag for the entire season.

2) No either sex tags

3) non transferable DMPs that are unit specific.

4) 9 or 10 day state wide regular season after the rut.

All of these implementations would be better in the long run then AR however the same hunters that are crying in here would cry their eyes out. So your stuck with either the status quo or half ass AR's and we continue to keep NY deer hunting near the bottom of the barrel compared to the rest of the country ( except the NE states which do an even worse job then NY...hard to believe).

I have saw these statistics before but I would still like to know how the state gets them. There is nothing other than points that you report when a buck is harvested. And we all know how terrible the harvest reports are in NY.

If NY made the regular season 9 or 10 days in the Adirondacks after the rut I would sell my camp and buy one in another state.

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[Buckmaster7600]

Dbl post

[dbHunterNY]

35 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

 

I have saw these statistics before but I would still like to know how the state gets them. There is nothing other than points that you report when a buck is harvested. And we all know how terrible the harvest reports are in NY.


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NY DEC big game staff go around to meat cutters, DEC check stations, and other places to gather information outside hunters reporting.  they guess without pulling jaw for some and some they collect jaws to age bucks.  very very limited number though.  I have one of the tear away harvest data slips from the pad they bring with them to do their rounds.  I asked for it multiple times until Hurst the big game leader finally passed it around at a meeting. I can post a photo up of it here if someone wants.  Nothing really secretive.  they also keep track of age versus antler points.  art kirsch the biologist out in western NY has compiled the info for new co-ops starting out that way to effectively implement antler restrictions to protect yearlings.  I know of one anyway that chose to go with 4 points to a side in Springville.  I don't really trust the data DEC puts out as truly applicable for yearling harvest being slightly over half.  I think the dacks and western NY is much lower for yearling harvest and out here in eastern NY it's much higher.

[Buckmaster7600]

NY DEC big game staff go around to meat cutters, DEC check stations, and other places to gather information outside hunters reporting.  they guess without pulling jaw for some and some they collect jaws to age bucks.  very very limited number though.  I have one of the tear away harvest data slips from the pad they bring with them to do their rounds.  I asked for it multiple times until Hurst the big game leader finally passed it around at a meeting. I can post a photo up of it here if someone wants.  Nothing really secretive.  they also keep track of age versus antler points.  art kirsch the biologist out in western NY has compiled the info for new co-ops starting out that way to effectively implement antler restrictions to protect yearlings.  I know of one anyway that chose to go with 4 points to a side in Springville.  I don't really trust the data DEC puts out as truly applicable for yearling harvest being slightly over half.  I think the dacks and western NY is much lower for yearling harvest and out here in eastern NY it's much higher.

I have heard of this before as well but if this is their only means of age estimation it would be such a small number that it can't be accurate. After all is that 8pt a 2yr old or 7? How would they know? Them checking butcher shops is such a small portion.


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