SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[chas0218]

10 hours ago, ....rob said:

Seriously? I am starting to think certain bow hunters are anti-gun.

 

He simply said take guns out of the rut and shorten the season. So push off gun season for 1 more week then it will be towards the end of rut if it hasn't ended already. I love bow hunting and gun hunting. I bow hunt because I like the amount of skill, and how it challenges my ability to get close to deer.

[WNYBuckHunter]

15 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

I understand, I hunt 8N middlesex and have saw some really good bucks taken out of that area. That also goes for the area in 8F I hunt another area that has had some real studs killed over the years but I'm talking 1 mature buck in 5 or 6 years off the same property and that is usually because we pass him for those 3 or 4 years and might get lucky on the 4th year and make it around us. My point being that in 8N, 8X, 8Y, 8W all areas I hunt all seem to have lower herd numbers than 8F which is primarily flat farm land. When I compare the WMU's in the AR bill to ones that aren't there is a substantial difference in age of bucks. I think the areas listed will most definitely benefit from the AR bill, maybe not the way people want it to happen but it will help. 

In essence the AR bill will make it a one buck rule like you stated because how many people get a chance at more than one 2.5 year old? I think people will actually need to hunt to kill a buck vs killing the first deer that walks out in front of them.

The AR bill limits you to 4 points on one side for those areas. I could post a plethora of 1 1/2 year olds from that area with 4-5 points on one side. They will still be fair game. I can (and have) posted pics of higher age class 6 point bucks from that area, hunters would be limited on those. ARs also force some hunters standards on everyone. I do realize the possible benefits of ARs, but I dont agree with them based on the cost (not talking financials) of putting them in place. I believe it would be much better to leave the individual hunter with the choice, while using a "soft push" in the right direction.

[loworange88]

At this point the bill is still in committee.  Lets worry about it if it actually becomes law.

 

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2017/s4739/amendment/a

 

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by loworange88

[phade]

Let's not worry after it becomes law. Let's worry now.


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[Larry]

This bill may never become law. When The New York Whitetail Management Coalition sent their 6000 form letters demanding the governor force the DEC into this exact same plan. He said something to the fact that it was up to the DEC to set season dates and bag limits  and what is harvested. So even if it passes both houses which I doubt it will, he may still veto it. I actually think it won’t get out of committee in at least one of the houses.

[dbHunterNY]

the realty is even if this bill goes away the relief is only temporary.  in some areas yearling buck harvest is very high, buck age structure sucks, and therefore there's less opportunity to see or harvest any buck.  i see talk of shooting 8 pointers and 10 pointers and then waiting for a "big one".  fact is some hunters have never seen a buck with that many points in some areas. there's going to be more and more of a push from hunters in those areas, not some entity that you think has an agenda.  if DEC ignores the cry for help, more legislation will just come up that involves some kind of restriction.  this kind of issue won't be masked by optimistic state wide numbers, as DEC will be asked for data collected for smaller areas.  exemptions that are realistic and feasible will probably be considered, but in the end DEC may very well be the one saying you can no longer shoot whatever deer you want.  "i should have the right to choose" won't fly.  hunting here in NY is a managed privilege you pay for.  then what?  will you become an outlaw or part of the solution?

[stoneam2006]

Just outta curiosity how does on know they yearling take is high? We don't have to report age just male female and number of points. Points don't determine age...could say bb take sure but those would still be killed with AR's as they are doe tags

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[Buckmaster7600]

Just outta curiosity how does on know they yearling take is high? We don't have to report age just male female and number of points. Points don't determine age...could say bb take sure but those would still be killed with AR's as they are doe tags

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They don't! They take an absolute guess with very little data to back it. Until this problem is fixed I refuse to back any changes by the dec/state because they have so little facts to warrant the changes. Not only that but if they do go forward with AR's in 5 or 10 years how will we know if it helped?


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[WNYBuckHunter]

23 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

will you become an outlaw or part of the solution?

The solution to what though? Pushing your standards down everyones throats? Lets face it here, ARs or not, there are still plenty of deer to be hunted. You want a trophy rack? Buy land and manage it. Do your best to get your neighbors to do the same. If you arent willing to do that, then quit your griping.

Im pretty tired of every little thing in life being legislatively molded into someone else's idea of how things should be. I have my standards, I dont push them on anyone. My personal hunting wont be affected, but many other's will be. Enough already.

[stoneam2006]

Man these last 2 posts are spot on

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[chas0218]

52 minutes ago, stoneam2006 said:

Just outta curiosity how does on know they yearling take is high? We don't have to report age just male female and number of points. Points don't determine age...could say bb take sure but those would still be killed with AR's as they are doe tags

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37 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

They don't! They take an absolute guess with very little data to back it. Until this problem is fixed I refuse to back any changes by the dec/state because they have so little facts to warrant the changes. Not only that but if they do go forward with AR's in 5 or 10 years how will we know if it helped?


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Using a dmp with male deer meaning a button buck or a buck with 3" or less of an antler.

Edited April 4, 2017 by chas0218

[stoneam2006]

Using a dmp with male deer meaning a button buck or a buck with 3" or less of an antler.

Yes but AR's would not affect those numbers bc still covered in doe tags. So they have 0 idea on how old my 4 pt was could have been 11 on his downswing with terrible genetics and food

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[grampy]

31 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

The solution to what though? Pushing your standards down everyones throats? Lets face it here, ARs or not, there are still plenty of deer to be hunted. You want a trophy rack? Buy land and manage it. Do your best to get your neighbors to do the same. If you arent willing to do that, then quit your griping.

Im pretty tired of every little thing in life being legislatively molded into someone else's idea of how things should be. I have my standards, I dont push them on anyone. My personal hunting wont be affected, but many other's will be. Enough already.

                                                                                               

Right On!   Why is this so hard to understand?   Plenty of older bucks out there now.  You don't need more legislation to hunt em!  Just do it!!!.............................If that is what you want.   No one ever said killing mature bucks was supposed to be easy!!

[Rack Attack]

15 minutes ago, stoneam2006 said:

Yes but AR's would not affect those numbers bc still covered in doe tags. So they have 0 idea on how old my 4 pt was could have been 11 on his downswing with terrible genetics and food

Really?... Let's face it the majority (85-95%) of 4 pt and 6 pt deer that are out there are 1.5 year old deer.  There are always the acceptations (we have seen pictures of them), but the large majority are 1.5 years old.  Also the 2 pts are by and large all (with less than 1 percent not being) 1.5 year old deer.  The grey area of the reporting is the 7,8,9 point deer reported. Just saying...

[chas0218]

10 minutes ago, stoneam2006 said:

Yes but AR's would not affect those numbers bc still covered in doe tags. So they have 0 idea on how old my 4 pt was could have been 11 on his downswing with terrible genetics and food

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Those are still considered yearling deer, granted their system isn't perfect. There will always be exceptions to a rule, like mentioned the amount of exceptions is minimal and if you wanted to shoot that yearling 8 or 6 that is your choice.

[Rack Attack]

I can see the merits of the 1 buck rule idea.  On the other hand I can see where the guys that buy licenses for all the available hunting impalements would feel they are getting shorted by loosing the other buck tag.  Not an easy choice.  Then you also have the people that have purchased lifetime licenses for lets say bow, muzzleloader, and regular season with the expectation that they will be able to hunt a buck with those implements, who would not be able to then.

[chas0218]

14 minutes ago, Rack Attack said:

Really?... Let's face it the majority (85-95%) of 4 pt and 6 pt deer that are out there are 1.5 year old deer.  There are always the acceptations (we have seen pictures of them), but the large majority are 1.5 years old.  Also the 2 pts are by and large all (with less than 1 percent not being) 1.5 year old deer.  The grey area of the reporting is the 7,8,9 point deer reported. Just saying...

Yes those 7, 8, or 9 points could be 1.5, 2.5, or 3.5 it isn't a perfect system but like you said there are exceptions, but yearling are also the button bucks and bucks with antlers less than 3" harvested with a DMP.

[Rack Attack]

12 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Yes those 7, 8, or 9 points could be 1.5, 2.5, or 3.5 it isn't a perfect system but like you said there are exceptions, but yearling are also the button bucks and bucks with antlers less than 3" harvested with a DMP.

I agree, I'm not sure how/where the DEC cuts off for them to say a deer it 2.5 and older, is it 8pts?  Personally I would put the BB and deer without 3" antlers in a different age range as the 1.5 YO's, they are really 6 month olds, for the most part.

[stoneam2006]

But there's no way to be sure the deer in my home area are substantially worse off as far as bone is concerned. You kill a nice 8 down here you hear about it bc most deer are scruby with bad nutrition except on the plots guys manage. Fact is statewide AR's are a terrible cop out for management. I'd prefer to see a 1 buck rule with an additional guaranteed gun doe tag than AR's. AR's only please trophy hunters and no one else. Food nutrition, location habitat and genetics play huge factors in bone size. Want to better the deer herd as a state we need better management of the statelands. Dead cutting hinge cutting clear cutting controlled burns or many of the other ways you can help the survival rate/birth rate of deer. AR's are not the anwser unless you only care about shooting bone. Fact is a 1.5 yr old will breed just as well as a 4 yr old so 1 dead buck is 1 dead buck no matter how you look at it. Just like shooting a small doe could help that momma (proven breeder) doe survive by not having a jumpy yearling hanging around all the time. AR's are just for guys who think the bone on the head is what hunting is about but for the people who actually enjoy the sport of hunting just want to harvest a deer that gets their blood pumping.

Want to see how good a hunter you are forget about bone and go to the ADKS and try and even kill a buck shoot or doe for that matter. That's hunting that's what it should be about.

We can thank all this to Trail cams
They have killed hunting.

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[chas0218]

47 minutes ago, stoneam2006 said:

But there's no way to be sure the deer in my home area are substantially worse off as far as bone is concerned. You kill a nice 8 down here you hear about it bc most deer are scruby with bad nutrition except on the plots guys manage. Fact is statewide AR's are a terrible cop out for management. I'd prefer to see a 1 buck rule with an additional guaranteed gun doe tag than AR's. AR's only please trophy hunters and no one else. Food nutrition, location habitat and genetics play huge factors in bone size. Want to better the deer herd as a state we need better management of the statelands. Dead cutting hinge cutting clear cutting controlled burns or many of the other ways you can help the survival rate/birth rate of deer. AR's are not the anwser unless you only care about shooting bone. Fact is a 1.5 yr old will breed just as well as a 4 yr old so 1 dead buck is 1 dead buck no matter how you look at it. Just like shooting a small doe could help that momma (proven breeder) doe survive by not having a jumpy yearling hanging around all the time. AR's are just for guys who think the bone on the head is what hunting is about but for the people who actually enjoy the sport of hunting just want to harvest a deer that gets their blood pumping.

Want to see how good a hunter you are forget about bone and go to the ADKS and try and even kill a buck shoot or doe for that matter. That's hunting that's what it should be about.

We can thank all this to Trail cams
They have killed hunting.

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You can get a guaranteed doe tag if you own property I think it is 60 or more acres. what about those areas that don't have doe tags you're just asking to decimate the population in those areas. 8W where I hunt DMP probability for 1st choice is low. You're very lucky if you get a DMP, and would hate to see what would happen to the herd around the area.

Edited April 4, 2017 by chas0218

[stoneam2006]

You can get a guaranteed doe tag if you own property I think it is 60 or more acres. what about those areas that don't have doe tags you're just asking to decimate the population in those areas. 8W where I hunt DMP probability for 1st choice is low. You're very lucky if you get a DMP, and would hate to see what would happen to the herd around the area.

Not down here you can't I know landowners who were denied I have 4 pp and got denied so not all the same

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[ncountry]

12 minutes ago, stoneam2006 said:

 

Not down here you can't I know landowners who were denied I have 4 pp and got denied so not all the same

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True, there are 0 dmps in 6a . Preference points or land ownership will not help.

[Buckmaster7600]

Really?... Let's face it the majority (85-95%) of 4 pt and 6 pt deer that are out there are 1.5 year old deer.  There are always the acceptations (we have seen pictures of them), but the large majority are 1.5 years old.  Also the 2 pts are by and large all (with less than 1 percent not being) 1.5 year old deer.  The grey area of the reporting is the 7,8,9 point deer reported. Just saying...

Where did you get your information on the 85-95%? Or is it a guess from personal experience. If it is a made up number from personal experience how many different areas in the state have you hunted?

I talked to a group of Encon officers at the fair last year and asked them how they gather info and they told me that the state classifies them as such 1-4pts=1, 5-6pts=2, 7+=older. I don't know if they pulled this out of their asses, like I'm sure you did your 85-95% but that's what I was told. The problem with NY is it's a huge state, at my house a 6pt is usually a 2yrs old 150lb deer. In the Adirondacks I have seen more 2yr old 4-6 pts than I have yr olds. Once again the state doesn't have a frigging clue how old a deer that is killed here is.


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[stoneam2006]

True, there are 0 dmps in 6a . Preference points or land ownership will not help.

Yep just trophy hunters trying to jam their ideas down our throats like the elitist bow hunters do with xbow regs

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[Buckmaster7600]

You can get a guaranteed doe tag if you own property I think it is 60 or more acres. what about those areas that don't have doe tags you're just asking to decimate the population in those areas. 8W where I hunt DMP probability for 1st choice is low. You're very lucky if you get a DMP, and would hate to see what would happen to the herd around the area.

Incorrect I own 100acres in an area that has DMP's and get denied almost every year. There is no guarantee.


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