SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[Death From Above]

18 minutes ago, growalot said:

Study after study has said the oldest and youngest fall first in winter..also studies have shown when looking at a 11/2 yo. Spike next to a 4pt the same age, everything equal in a 3-4 yr span. The spike will not come near the same potential as the 4 pt.This being in both mass and time length. BTW your not protecting the majority of 11/2 yo with a 3  (1") per at least one side..your also cutting out many on the 4 (1") to a side.That definitely isn't helping the herd. Basically the same deer will be shot as are getting shot now ,with a glaring exception..the 1 1/2 old spikes or the 21/2 old forks that will be breeding those early doe,that you mentioned. I will gladly post that study later.

 

If my concern was only growing bigger racks, then I agree with you, there are not guarantees.  I would think that we should be more interested in seeing more bucks overall to lessen stress on the herd.  AR would accomplish this.  I am not saying that it will guarantee better genetics or larger antlers, and I realize that drives a lot of the discussion here.  I am saying it protects more young bucks from being shots and by sheer numbers it provides more for the next year which can be better for the herd.

Truth be told, shortened seasons and limiting the number of buck tags would probably do more for this issue than AR would.  Those are the reasons that the other states mentioned in earlier posts have an older buck herd than we do while not having ARs (aside from the fact that they have a different attitude about shooting young bucks to start with in most cases).

[growalot]

You know I read a lot,gather from many sources. Certain things repeat one to another. Never said majority. Though if your putting 21/2 as a mid point between younger and older deer. Your saying younger deer do, do a substantial portion of the breeding. A 21/2 yo buck is not a mature buck.

Edited March 11, 2017 by growalot

[Death From Above]

30 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Im not sold on this..Young deer do the breeding>  You see many young fellas chasing the ladies but you see the ladies running from them.  I believe your 21/2 and up still do most of the breeding.

I think the ladies run from any deer if they are not ready.  I don't think the younger bucks are adept at telling when she is ready to be bred or not, and I would assume some older bucks realize that they are wasting their time.  Even if the does run from the younger bucks who they for some reason don't see as suitable breeders, they need to be bred at some time.  If you are correct and the 2.5 do most of the breeding then that would be even more reason to let the 1.5s live another year to 2.5 to help out in that area, as once again it keeps the rut in sync and on time.  If the does fend off all of those 1.5 suitors then once again we are dealing with later breeding for a lot of those does that the 2.5 or older didn't get to.  Then we get into late bred does and late dropped fawns which is not a great and optimal situation.

 

Edited March 11, 2017 by Death From Above
typo, add

[Death From Above]

12 minutes ago, growalot said:

You know I read a lot,gather from many sources. Certain things repeat one to another. Never said majority. Though if your putting 21/2 as a mid point between younger and older deer. Your saying younger deer do due a substantial portion of the breeding. A 21/2 yo buck is not a mature buck.

I agree completely.  But more 2.5s will lead to more 3.5s, more 4.5, etc....I would hope.  That's why it seems when I hunt in Kansas the young bucks act like they aren't as willing to chase the does around and instead they run from the sight of older bucks.  It as if they look for the scraps that fall from the table instead...looking for the lucky situation.  That might be ideal, but we are a long ways from that I would think.  I think there are a lot of does in NY compared to the sheer number of bucks.  Out young deer need to breed to get the job done.

[Buckmaster7600]

Study after study has said the oldest and youngest fall first in winter..also studies have shown when looking at a 11/2 yo. Spike next to a 4pt the same age, everything equal in a 3-4 yr span. The spike will not come near the same potential as the 4 pt.This being in both mass and time length. BTW your not protecting the majority of 11/2 yo with a 3  (1") per at least one side..your also cutting out many on the 4 (1") to a side.That definitely isn't helping the herd. Basically the same deer will be shot as are getting shot now ,with a glaring exception..the 1 1/2 old spikes or the 21/2 old forks that will be breeding those early doe,that you mentioned. I will gladly post that study later.

I don't agree that 3 on a side doesn't protect the MAJORITY of 1 1/2 olds. I have hunted 8 whitetails in 8 states and I have yet to be in a place where he majority of year old bucks have atleast 5 1" points. If this is the case on your land you should fence it and start selling sperm.

For the rest of the state I would be willing to guess that the majority of year old bucks have less than 3 1" points. What is everyone else's opinions on this?

That being said there are exceptions to every rule but statistics 101 taught me that the extremes on either side have very little impact on an average.

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[Four Season Whitetail's]

27 minutes ago, Death From Above said:

I think the ladies run from any deer if they are not ready.  I don't think the younger bucks are adept at telling when she is ready to be bred or not, and I would assume some older bucks realize that they are wasting their time.  Even if the does run from the younger bucks who they for some reason don't see as suitable breeders, they need to be bred at some time.  If you are correct and the 2.5 do most of the breeding then that would be even more reason to let the 1.5s live to help out in that area, as once again it keeps the rut in sync and on time.  If the does fend off all of those 1.5 suitors then once again we are dealing with later breeding for a lot of those does.  Then we get into late bred does and late dropped fawns which is not a great and optimal situation.

 

They will only run until ready to stand and in a balanced herd the more mature buck will be there by her side when that moment comes.

[growalot]

A dang good many of our buck here are 11/2 yo sporting 3 on one side and spike, 2-4 on the other..all short tight basket racks and clearly 11/2  years old in both facial and body features. When I first moved here before I started bow hunting and managing I shot Several.  bodies not nearly the size of the 21/2 6-8  points here. Cam pics show the exact same thing. Again though 21/2 yo buck are not mature buck....We actually have a whole bunch of buck here as I've mentioned in the past..they have become easier to hunt than doe. Though, we are in one of those " over run zones" mother nature perhaps taking her natural course..in producing more buck fawn than doe. Could one imagine that!

Edited March 11, 2017 by growalot

[Buckmaster7600]

A dang good many of our buck here are 11/2 yo sporting 3 on one side and spike, 2-4 on the other..all short tight basket racks and clearly 11/2  years old in both facial and body features. When I first moved here before I started bow hunting and managing I shot Several.  bodies not nearly the size of the 21/2 6-8  points here. Cam pics show the exact same thing. Again though 21/2 yo buck are not mature buck....We actually have a whole bunch of buck here as I've mentioned in the past..they have become easier to hunt than doe. Though, we are in one of those " over run zones" mother nature perhaps taking her natural course..in producing more buck fawn than doe. Could one imagine that!

Again is a "dang good many" most?

Are you referring to "bumps" or points that you would put your license on that there are 3 over 1"?? There is a big difference. I have saw many bucks shot that turned out to be 5 or 6 pts that I certainly wouldn't have shot even at close bow ranges if 3 on a side was the law.

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[growalot]

3  at 1inch and above..BTW were you the one that asked if I ever proof read? It's I have seen not saw. Turned not Turner.

Anyways, you make that statement believing too many others do. To that so what ?Hunting is about the experience each individual hunter gets...not what you think they should . Now this is a yearly tail chasing thread that becomes pointless real quick. I'll step out with this advise, watch that prolonged looking down your noses at others...you my become crossed eyed.

Edited March 12, 2017 by growalot

[ManicOutdoorsman92]

The word "herd health" can be argued 100 different ways. Everyone's perspective of healthy is different. Older deer may have lived to those old ages because they didn't get sick with EHD or blue tongue. Two major diseases that have shown some deer with quality genetics are resistant. So yes antler size is a big point, but there's many other factors. They have CWD resistant genetic lines as well in deer farms. Letting more bucks walk and spread their genes around can be a good thing. If everyone stopped hunting (don't freak out, not saying I'd vote for that!) and we just sat back and watched for 10-15 years, there's no way you could tell me that Mother Nature wouldn't weed out the weak on its own.

mother nature has already weeded out the weak in the whitetail herd, think of how long theyve been around, wild deer have accumulated the traits they need and have the genetic biodiversity necessary to live in a wild enviroment. Just because a deer has big antlers doesnt mean its generically superior, and small antlers inferior, people make this assumption imo bc they want a herd of deer with nothing but big bucks. I could even imagine having too large of a rack would even inhibit deer in some very thick environments. The fact that we as a species think we somehow know better, without taking into account these animals have been on earth for 3.5 million years the oldest deer species, is just down right ignorant. And to the CWD resisant gene.. deer farms, from my understanding, is the source of this disease, due to the deer being kept in enclosures. in a normal herd, the deer recognize " that ones fucked up" and get away, and dont allow the fucked up one near the rest of the herd, cant get away in an enclosure. People are only compounding problems, trying to come up with solutions to problems that nature has already solved. And the ultimate end, trophy bucks everywhere! Oh.. but its for the health of the herd


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[ManicOutdoorsman92]

I don't agree that 3 on a side doesn't protect the MAJORITY of 1 1/2 olds. I have hunted 8 whitetails in 8 states and I have yet to be in a place where he majority of year old bucks have atleast 5 1" points. If this is the case on your land you should fence it and start selling sperm.
For the rest of the state I would be willing to guess that the majority of year old bucks have less than 3 1" points. What is everyone else's opinions on this?
That being said there are exceptions to every rule but statistics 101 taught me that the extremes on either side have very little impact on an average.
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Thought id add this bc of your post,this is my first buck, 2 1/2 yo
this is my bow buck 1 1/2 yo, surely a major exception to that age but nonetheless

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[phade]

I have a 12 pt 1.5.

The real impact on areas where less than the necessary age class target is protected is decreased antler beam length of the younger bucks on average. This is one component of high grading.

Sure some age date impacts have merit but generally speaking a buck at the front of the class at 1 will be likely to be ahead of the class at 2, 3, 4, etc.

If there was a case to protect one year olds to truly improve the herd it should be to protect the 5, 6, 7, 8, point 1.5s.


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[phade]

Ratios have more to do with breeding success than age structure according to most biologist conversations I've had.

If ratios aren't there where they need to be then does can't be bred at the success rate necessary regardless of buck age structure.

In our part of NY, the DEC believes 95-98% of does are successfully bred annually and only 10% or so involve a second rut so to speak. Keep in mind this is with our supposed lousy age structure.

Only after ratios, does age structure come into play.

I think many people underestimate the percentages of one and two year olds involved in breeding here.

Improved age structure does allow younger bucks to participate less in the rut activity but let's be clear here, we're talking Kansas level age structure here, not this lousy move some bucks to two year olds. They also have ratios that back the ability up for this to take place.

Our DEC really hasn't said much about improving the fact that such a high percentage of does are bred - in fact, they want less I'd imagine since these WMUs are "overpopulated."


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[Four Season Whitetail's]

3 hours ago, ManicOutdoorsman92 said:

mother nature has already weeded out the weak in the whitetail herd, think of how long theyve been around, wild deer have accumulated the traits they need and have the genetic biodiversity necessary to live in a wild enviroment. Just because a deer has big antlers doesnt mean its generically superior, and small antlers inferior, people make this assumption imo bc they want a herd of deer with nothing but big bucks. I could even imagine having too large of a rack would even inhibit deer in some very thick environments. The fact that we as a species think we somehow know better, without taking into account these animals have been on earth for 3.5 million years the oldest deer species, is just down right ignorant. And to the CWD resisant gene.. deer farms, from my understanding, is the source of this disease, due to the deer being kept in enclosures. in a normal herd, the deer recognize " that ones fucked up" and get away, and dont allow the fucked up one near the rest of the herd, cant get away in an enclosure. People are only compounding problems, trying to come up with solutions to problems that nature has already solved. And the ultimate end, trophy bucks everywhere! Oh.. but its for the health of the herd


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The only thing Fouled up is you and your clearly clueless thoughts on anything about who,what and how about CWD in any herd fenced or Not?  Reading your post the only one compounding the problem is you. Read something and get yourself some knowledge before coming on here making yourself sound like an dipstick.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Four Season Whitetails

[wolc123]

Are the mod's taking a break?  What's up with the language being used here?

[Doewhacker]

9 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

Are the mod's taking a break?  What's up with the language being used here?

I agree. I hope the ban hammer drops on these guys. 

[buckman4c]

Some good "arguments" being made from both sides of the fence here. I will only add that based on scientific result thus far, AR and HR (herd reduction) were much needed in PA and that it has improved both the scientific result and hunter satisfaction. Although many hunters in PA will tell you HR wasn't needed to the degree it was carried out.

Anyway, as I also said previously stated, I'm not sure AR is needed in New York. I said this based on your harvest statistics. Your harvest rate of 1.5 year old bucks is very close to 50% of the kill. Ours of last year was 41% but that has been our best year to date (since 2001 when AR began). The whole premise behind AR in Pa as being argued was to create a more balanced age structure and better sex ratio. Traditionally, with AR in place our buck kill in years past was 50% for both age classes (1.5) versus (2.5 plus).

 The biggest difference I see between NY and PA is prior to AR. Here in Pa our annual buck kill consisted of roughly 75% being 1.5 years old. On top of that, according to data, we were killing close to 80% of all available bucks. This had things extremely scewed toward more doe than buck. You apparently don't have the same problem. So, AR may not really be needed although I personally like them.

Edited March 12, 2017 by buckman4c

[ManicOutdoorsman92]

The only thing Fuked up is you and your clearly clueless thoughts on anything about who,what and how about CWD in any herd fenced or Not?  Reading your post the only one compounding the problem is you. Read something and get yourself some knowledge before coming on here making yourself sound like an dipshit. 

Just because u learn a disease doesn't mean its anything new to the animals, I'll say it again they've been around for 3.5 million years u think these have just started in the last 100 years, and yes the animals will recognize if something is wrong with one and keep away if given the space, and in a normal ecosystem, with more predators, the sick and abandonded will almost certainly die without the safety of the herd. Its how a natural ecosystem preserves itself. The exception to the fenced areas would be in areas with high agriculture and ultimately less bedding cover, so theres plenty of food for the deer to prosper but they all end up bedding in the isolated chunks of cover leading to congestion, and ultimately disease in large numbers. Same concept though the deer dont have space to get away. I understand my ideology may not apply in areas like this (such as the midwest) but if the herd has the cover and the space to get away, you wont see disease affect much of the herd *as a whole* . If hunters out there would stop soaking up so much bs from the qdma, "its science"!, and learn a little more about basic biology and ecology, it'd put things in perspective, pick up something besides a hunting magazine

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[Four Season Whitetail's]

38 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

I agree. I hope the ban hammer drops on these guys. 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

12 minutes ago, ManicOutdoorsman92 said:

Just because u learn a disease doesn't mean its anything new to the animals, I'll say it again they've been around for 3.5 million years u think these have just started in the last 100 years, and yes the animals will recognize if something is wrong with one and keep away if given the space, and in a normal ecosystem, with more predators, the sick and abandonded will almost certainly die without the safety of the herd. Its how a natural ecosystem preserves itself. The exception to the fenced areas would be in areas with high agriculture and ultimately less bedding cover, so theres plenty of food for the deer to prosper but they all end up bedding in the isolated chunks of cover leading to congestion, and ultimately disease in large numbers. Same concept though the deer dont have space to get away. I understand my ideology may not apply in areas like this (such as the midwest) but if the herd has the cover and the space to get away, you wont see disease affect much of the herd *as a whole* . If hunters out there would stop soaking up so much bs from the qdma, "its science"!, and learn a little more about basic biology and ecology, it'd put things in perspective, pick up something besides a hunting magazine

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I really dont care what you think you know but to come on a site and make statements that are 100% not a fact about something that clearly shows you know nothing about is really not needed.

We are talking Whitetails here and you are talking....The safety of the Herd?????????  Really!

[Death From Above]

25 minutes ago, ManicOutdoorsman92 said:

Just because u learn a disease doesn't mean its anything new to the animals, I'll say it again they've been around for 3.5 million years u think these have just started in the last 100 years, and yes the animals will recognize if something is wrong with one and keep away if given the space, and in a normal ecosystem, with more predators, the sick and abandonded will almost certainly die without the safety of the herd. Its how a natural ecosystem preserves itself. The exception to the fenced areas would be in areas with high agriculture and ultimately less bedding cover, so theres plenty of food for the deer to prosper but they all end up bedding in the isolated chunks of cover leading to congestion, and ultimately disease in large numbers. Same concept though the deer dont have space to get away. I understand my ideology may not apply in areas like this (such as the midwest) but if the herd has the cover and the space to get away, you wont see disease affect much of the herd *as a whole* . If hunters out there would stop soaking up so much bs from the qdma, "its science"!, and learn a little more about basic biology and ecology, it'd put things in perspective, pick up something besides a hunting magazine

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I think the discussion in this thread is based on the impact that humans (hunters) can have on the deer herd.  If you don’t think that humans can have an effect on wildlife, then you need to reconsider that opinion.  Simply stating that mother nature cures all is not accurate.  Do a Google search for endangered or extinct species…did we, or can we impact them?  How about invasive species?  Typically, we can be to blame for that as well.  Humans have an impact on mother nature, whether you want to hear it or not.  You impact it every time you pull the trigger in the woods.  The debate is just how much does your hammer pull effect the basic ecology that you speak of.      

[Death From Above]

3 hours ago, phade said:

Ratios have more to do with breeding success than age structure according to most biologist conversations I've had.

If ratios aren't there where they need to be then does can't be bred at the success rate necessary regardless of buck age structure.

In our part of NY, the DEC believes 95-98% of does are successfully bred annually and only 10% or so involve a second rut so to speak. Keep in mind this is with our supposed lousy age structure.

Only after ratios, does age structure come into play.

I think many people underestimate the percentages of one and two year olds involved in breeding here.

Improved age structure does allow younger bucks to participate less in the rut activity but let's be clear here, we're talking Kansas level age structure here, not this lousy move some bucks to two year olds. They also have ratios that back the ability up for this to take place.

Our DEC really hasn't said much about improving the fact that such a high percentage of does are bred - in fact, they want less I'd imagine since these WMUs are "overpopulated."


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I completely agree that ratios have more of an effect on herd health than the other topic that keeps being argued, antler size.  I see antler size as a byproduct of sheer numbers which can occur in an improved ratios of buck to does.  If a large majority of 1.5 old bucks were provided a pass for a year, the age structure jumps up by a year right away in most vicinities.  I’d have a hard time guessing how many more 3’s, 4’s or 5’s would be added in the years after, but it is not a stretch to assume that it would happen.  In a state that allows two bucks per hunter and has a lengthy gun season, those possibilities would be harder to accomplish than in many other states.

While I think that buck to doe ratios would be the positive outcome of AR, I do think that there are more effective ways to accomplish this such as changes to bag limits and season length.  As those options are likely less to be changed, I guess I see AR as a benefit to the ratio issue that I see where I hunt in several parts of NY.

I really hadn’t thought about your last point till I read it.  It is a good point.  Just how much would the DEC care about improving the health of the herd IF IT might actually increase the overall numbers they are hoping to diminish.  In their eyes, it may not be great to improve the herd to further a bigger problem that they see.    I now see AR as even more unlikely to every be added. 

[Five Seasons]

I last visited this thread on Tuesday and it's almost doubled in size. I bet I can point to at least 6 other lengthy threads on the same subject.

kind of funny really.

[ManicOutdoorsman92]

 

I think the discussion in this thread is based on the impact that humans (hunters) can have on the deer herd.  If you don’t think that humans can have an effect on wildlife, then you need to reconsider that opinion.  Simply stating that mother nature cures all is not accurate.  Do a Google search for endangered or extinct species…did we, or can we impact them?  How about invasive species?  Typically, we can be to blame for that as well.  Humans have an impact on mother nature, whether you want to hear it or not.  You impact it every time you pull the trigger in the woods.  The debate is just how much does your hammer pull effect the basic ecology that you speak of.      

Yes exactly, our imact effects the environment, thus leading to loss of habit, less places for the animals to go. So we come to an area, the environment is complety altered by us, the species apart of the old environment have to figure out how to adjust, only the most versatile survive. disease sickness predators , prey they all rise or fall throughout the years as its environment allows for one of the other to prosper or fall. If desease/death becomes abundant, somethings toxic in the environment, and my belief is those diseases are keeping things in check as whole. Hunters dont like the idea of that though, he wanted to kill that buck. Theres more to it than
Food /habitat》EHD/CWD
》deer》coyotes, while i understand thats all most people on here can fathom. Theres a whole ecosystem at play. Imo we aught to spend less time focusing on the deer herd, and wonder how youre own species will fair given the decaying state of our environment. 10:1 says the deer outlive us

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[ManicOutdoorsman92]

Never meant to come accross as "humans dont have an impact", more trying to say the environment is responding to our impact, and we dont like it because it interferes with our recreational activities, thus interfere with the course of nature to suit our own needs.

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