SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[Four Season Whitetail's]

8 hours ago, growalot said:

It's the loudest chick that gets the worm...period...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYq2X2zmcgs&feature=youtu.be

notice it doesn't say "and deer hunting" it specifies BUCK hunting

Its all about the bone..........There are many other ways to keep the females in check. But you still cant kill a deer of either sex on land you cant get on.

[tuckersdaddy]

It's the loudest chick that gets the worm...period...

New York State Whitetail Management Coalition

Working to improve deer management and buck hunting in NY

notice it doesn't say "and deer hunting" it specifies BUCK hunting

And dont forget to send in the check.

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[tuckersdaddy]

we don't need bucks necessarily that old but some sort of age structure and a good number of young bucks is good for breeding ecology.  this link explains it better than i can...

https://www.qdma.com/mature-bucks-needs-em/

Is it possible to get a source that dosent have a vested intrest in the outcome?

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[G-Man]

Just look at buck hunting as. The movie logan's run..  Everyone dies young.. One old guy lives outside the box.. 

[growalot]

There will be no checks leaving this house....

[Raymond Purdy]

How about an article written by retired NYSDEC Biologist Dick Henry. Biological And Other Compelling Needs For Antler Restriction.

INTRODUCTION

Deer numbers and distribution are a direct reflection of their environment. The deer herd we have today is a result of management practices instituted to restore deer numbers during the last century. Following the era of exploitation, game laws were established to allow the return of a variety of wildlife species, including white-tailed deer around 1900. At that time, complete protection of all female deer was necessary to restore NY’s deer population, and the three-inch antler statute was at that time an effective mechanism to protect female deer. In the era of iron sights, it was commonly held that a 3 inch antler could be seen with the naked eye and accordingly offered protection for all female deer.  However under the three-inch legal antler statute, we have been targeting almost every yearling buck within shooting range for almost 100 years. As a result, our current deer population in many locations in New York State consists of primarily older females, an abundance of  young males and a scarcity of mature, adult bucks. This is not a normal age structure for a mammal population with a relatively high reproductive capacity. The present imbalance in both the sex ratio and the male age structure in some units has had an impact on the deer herd and it’s habitat.

We must not forget that hunters directly control three components of the deer herd: adult sex ratios, age structure, and overall density of the herd. The quality of our deer herd today is the by-product of agency policies that failed to recognize the need to refine deer management strategies as overall deer numbers recovered following World War II.

BREEDING ECOLOGY

White-tailed deer are promiscuous, seasonal breeders. Breeding occurs in late fall, when both bucks and does are in their best physical condition of any time throughout the year. The fall breeding period or “rut” typically begins in early to mid November. White-tailed deer have a 200 day gestation period and all does bred in the normal rut will drop their fawns in late spring when natural vegetation has it’s peak nutrition.

Any does that are unbred after the initial estrus, will have a second estrus period about 28 days later and if still not bred, can continue to ovulate additional times. However, does that are bred later in the year will subsequently drop their fawns later in the summer. These late birth fawns  will have a difficult time reaching an adequate body size to survive their first winter. White-tailed deer fawns are born in about a 1:1 male to female sex ratio, but with intense selective harvesting of young males that now occurs, that sex ratio no longer commonly exists in older age classes in the wild.

Folklore has long advocated that mature bucks do most of the breeding when does are in estrus. However, recent DNA analysis has shown that older bucks do not dominate breeding, and younger bucks equally partake in breeding activities. Interestingly, it has also been documented that about 25% of the twin fawns that you see have different sires in spite of the fact that does are only in estrus for a brief 24 to 36 hour period.

Although yearling bucks are physically capable of breeding, they lack the maturity for signpost behaviors (rubs and scrapes) and pheremone production (a hormonal attraction mechanism) of mature bucks. More importantly, yearling bucks also lack the body size to have a full compliment of winter fat reserves stored in their body. An extended rutting period can drastically reduce their chances of survival during a harsh winter.

COMPLICATIONS TO THE FALL RUT

Numerous studies have shown that in areas where does outnumber bucks and the herd’s buck-to-doe ratio is out of balance, deer reproductive behavior and activities are extended over a period of two or more estrus cycles. Prolonged breeding activities take their toll on the buck’s body condition and fat reserves and as a result, can also compromise survival in harsher winters. However when a high proportion of the does are bred in the first estrus, both sexes of deer can revert to normal feeding and behavior patterns and their chances for survival through the winter will greatly increase.

Extended breeding periods lasting more than six weeks are commonly referred to as “trickle ruts”, implying that instead of a normal, relatively brief intense period of breeding, we see breeding and conceptions “trickling” on well into second and third estrus periods. Trickle ruts are simply a direct reflection of a poor buck to doe ratio. The prolonged breeding activity of multiple  rut periods needlessly burns up considerably more fat and energy reserves needed by deer for the upcoming winter.

COMPLICATIONS TO THE SPRING FAWN DROP

Extended ruts result in an extended period of fawn drop in the late spring and into early summer. Fawns that are born over a longer period of time experience significantly greater losses from predation. A comprehensive fawn survival study conducted by the Pennsylvania Game Commission in 2001-02 showed that predation is a primary form of mortality for newborn fawns. Fawns are most vulnerable to predation during the first two weeks of their life when they have limited mobility. Until they are six weeks of age, fawns also avoid danger by remaining immobile. Once they become fleet afoot, the incidence of predation declines.

The research conducted in PA before the implementation of their antler restriction program demonstrated that only about 50 % of the fawn crop survived to eight months of age. Predation by coyotes, black bears, bobcats accounted for their losses during the period of greatest vulnerability.

When there is an extended period of fawn drop, then there will be a longer period of fawn vulnerability, higher levels and longer periods of heavy predation, and ultimately less recruitment to the deer population. Similar studies in other states have demonstrated that in locations with a better-balanced buck-to-doe breeding ratio there was a more intense, shorter rut, resulting in a shorter period of fawn drop. When a greater number of fawns hit the ground in a relatively brief period of time, this results in what is appropriately described as “prey saturation”. Prey saturation consists of simply having more potential food for the predators than they can possibly consume.

Prey saturation is a direct outcome of a short, intense rut and direct result of a buck-to-doe ratio that allows most of the breeding activity to occur in the first estrus. Having a larger number of fawns susceptible to predation for a brief period of time results in increased overall fawn survival.

Conversely, a trickle rut creates an extended period of fawn mortality, and ultimately greater numbers of fawns are lost and herd recruitment suffers.

RECENT ASSESSMENT OF REPRODUCTION IN NEW YORK STATE

Examining reproductive tracts and embryos of winterkilled deer is one of the standard techniques used by deer biologists to determine herd health. It allows them to pinpoint the timing and duration of the rut and fall estrus period of deer.

By measuring the crown-to-rump length of each fetus recovered from dead does in the winter, deer biologists can determine the age of each fetus within a couple of days. By subtracting the age in days from the date of death, they can then determine the approximate date of conception. With an adequate sample size, they have fairly accurate snapshot of the timing of deer breeding activity during the previous fall.

 

The last comprehensive statewide effort to determine the reproductive status of white-tailed deer in NY was in the early 1970′s. Recently NYSDEC completed a study of deer reproduction in smaller selected areas of Central and Western NYS (See: http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/deerrepro09.pdf .)

An examination of the DEC’s data from this recent study gives us insight into the present breeding ecology of deer in the portions NYS that were sampled. As expected, conceptions gradually build up during the first week of November and reach a peak in mid-November, from about November 14th to 20th. That period is aptly referred to as “the peak of the rut” and has long been of key interest to deer hunters because of the amount of overall deer activity that they observe in the field during this time.

Following the graph, the number of conceptions decreases daily following the peak of mid-November breeding. However conceptions continue into early December, and a small but steady number of conceptions occur until almost January 1. And finally, some of the past years fawns reach puberty, enter estrus and are bred from late December until the end of January.

As shown by the graph of conception dates, this extended pattern of breeding of adult females continues for more than 60 days. A direct result of this extended breeding activity is an extended period of fawn drop during the next spring that will also continue for a 60-day period of time. Worse yet, fawns born to last year’s fawns (now yearlings) will be born in August. This is a classic “trickle rut” as described in previous paragraphs and ultimately is a reflection of an unbalanced adult sex ratio. Similar research completed by Dr. Grant Woods of Woods and Associates, Inc in the early 1990′s in northern NY demonstrated that ruts in some locations in NY can last as long as 110 days.

It is important to never lose sight of the fact that having an extended period of breeding is a direct by-product of a poor adult buck to adult doe ratio. There are several ways to possibly address this imbalance, however, it comes down to the simple case that there either needs to be more bucks or fewer does on the landscape during the rut.

Removing females in several southern locations prior to the rut has successfully reduced the overall duration of the rut. However the concept of an early antlerless season has not been readily accepted by NY deer hunters and justifiably so, given the number of the WMUs are currently 10% or more below desired deer levels.

The flip side of the coin is that protecting yearling bucks can result in the creation of a segment of the male population that is not subject to heavy harvest and is available for breeding throughout the duration of first estrus period. In the Southern Zone, as many as 45% of the bucks that will be taken during the regular season will die on opening day. By the end of the first full week of the regular season, as many as 75% of the bucks that will be taken during the regular season are either on a meat pole or in the freezer. Yearling buck numbers, by virtue of their vulnerability,  are rapidly reduced throughout the first week of the regular season by the intense hunting pressure.

However, by conserving yearling bucks with antler restrictions, a significant percentage of them would remain available for breeding activities through out the duration of the first estrus. Providing a level of protection to the standing crop of yearling bucks each year could easily reduce the intensity and/or eliminate second and third estrus periods of a trickle rut. And again, having a shorter estrus period results in short fawning periods, better fawn survival and ultimately better overall recruitment to the deer population.

Adult bucks can still lose up to 30% of their stored fat reserves during the rut. However, a shorter, more intense rut can and will also allow surviving bucks of all ages to return to normal late fall feeding patterns, instead of expending energy participating in extended breeding activities. More importantly, with a short rut they will be in better physical condition heading into the rigors of the upcoming winter, and this can be a key factor in winter survival during especially severe winters.

IN SUMMARY

Animal husbandry is in fact a science, and there is no reason not to apply sound breeding practices to our free ranging herd of white-tailed deer in NY. In many areas hunters often observe fewer deer than meets their satisfaction and it’s easy to blame this on a number of things. We must not overlook the fact that every time a NY hunter pulls the trigger or releases an arrow, he or she is making a decision that will determine the herd’s characteristics for the next season. When a poor buck-to-doe ratio exists, we will experience an extended rut. A breeding chronology that is extended as it appears to the case in some locations of NY is something that hunters can control and rectify. Only our stubborn adherence to outdated, century-old  hunting traditions that results in annually clear-cutting the yearling buck population prevents us from refining deer breeding ecology.

Yearling bucks are capable breeders, and DNA analysis has shown that in white-tailed deer populations with a well-balanced age structure, yearlings will breed about 1/3 of the does. However, in unbalanced herds such as found in parts of  NY and other northeastern states with a poor buck age structure, forces yearling bucks by default to participate in the bulk of the breeding over an extended period of time. This immature age class of male animals with the smallest physical stature, the poorest stored fat reserves, and the most inept breeding behaviors are forced to be the primary breeders over a needlessly long breeding season. It defies the basic logic of animal husbandry practices, yet is a time-honored scenario that currently plays out every fall, to the chronic long term detriment of overall deer herd health in many areas in NY.

By simply restoring a balanced age and sex structure to our deer population with antler restrictions that protect a majority of the yearlings bucks, New York hunters in southeastern New York  have  finally begin to enjoy a deer herd structure that many generations of hunters have never experienced . After 8 years of antler restrictions in WMUs in southeastern NY,  hunters are participating in  a deer hunting season with a buck age structure last seen by their great grandfathers.

More importantly, we owe future generations of deer hunters a better legacy than 100 years of tradition, unhampered by progress, lacking in scientific support and devoid of common sense.

[wolc123]

54 minutes ago, Raymond Purdy said:

How about an article written by retired NYSDEC Biologist Dick Henry. Biological And Other Compelling Needs For Antler Restriction.

 

A bit verbose maybe, but it sounds like mandatory statewide 3 point per side AR's for the first 2 weeks of archery and gun seasons would be a good compromise. 

[growalot]

Let me see...age structure...we are bad by killing the majority of the young buck. In the same breath it's bad the majority of the breeding is being done by the young buck. So the answer to this is protect the majority of the young buck with AR' s, So hunter go after the majority of bigger older bucks. This mainly being done during gun and the rut. Thus leaving the young buck to......breed the doe?????...Now remember a month prior to gun and the rut, bow hunters are targeting the more mature buck..and with cross bow  coming many more guys will be put there targeting all the bigger buck us greedy archers have been stealing from them for years...leaving even fewer mature buck for the rut...Am I reading this  long thing right?......

Edited March 20, 2017 by growalot

[Raymond Purdy]

Until archers start taking the majority of the deer harvest I think you & I are safe from being the blame. AR's don't suddenly cause the archery stats to go thru the roof.

 

[NFA-ADK]

I do agree that if the population was at a better ratio it would be a more intensive rut where most of the doe are bred in a shorter period resulting in a better fawn drop and possibly better fawn survival.  This would also result in bucks surviving the rut in better shape to make it through the winter.

I think Mr.Henry's view is spot on but I still would not like to take away the rights of someone to harvest a deer.  I also feel this is another thing that will stop new hunters as sometimes all they see are young deer.  Real easy to quit hunting when everything you see is "Off Limits".

This last issue is just because mature deer are in the area more does not mean hunters will be able to get them.  Once they reach 3 plus they seem to understand much more about staying alive!

[growalot]

Not what I said..what I said was with cross bows coming in there will be more guys out there targeting the mature buck before the rut..There is no arguing that. Also no arguing that with more hunters for a longer time before the rut there WILL be an increase in buck harvest #'s before the rut.

[Raymond Purdy]

12 minutes ago, NFA-ADK said:

I do agree that if the population was at a better ratio it would be a more intensive rut where most of the doe are bred in a shorter period resulting in a better fawn drop and possibly better fawn survival.  This would also result in bucks surviving the rut in better shape to make it through the winter.

I think Mr.Henry's view is spot on but I still would not like to take away the rights of someone to harvest a deer.  I also feel this is another thing that will stop new hunters as sometimes all they see are young deer.  Real easy to quit hunting when everything you see is "Off Limits".

This last issue is just because mature deer are in the area more does not mean hunters will be able to get them.  Once they reach 3 plus they seem to understand much more about staying alive!

Youth Hunters 16 & under are exempt.

[Raymond Purdy]

14 minutes ago, growalot said:

Not what I said..what I said was with cross bows coming in there will be more guys out there targeting the mature buck before the rut..There is no arguing that. Also no arguing that with more hunters for a longer time before the rut there WILL be an increase in buck harvest #'s before the rut.

I think you are trying to make your case using small percentages of x-bow & archery hunters. I guess the 105 year old parade will continue for you.

[stubborn1VT]

10 minutes ago, Raymond Purdy said:

I think you are trying to make your case using small percentages of x-bow & archery hunters. I guess the 105 year old parade will continue for you.

You sure drank the Kool-Aide.  You can read the article as valid science, or as a justification for ARs.  Do you think the NY deer herd is that broken and unhealthy? Does the health and future of the herd really depend on protecting younger bucks?  I truly believe there are more factors involved than that.  One could also view the 105 years as history and tradition.  

[Raymond Purdy]

18 minutes ago, stubborn1VT said:

You sure drank the Kool-Aide.  You can read the article as valid science, or as a justification for ARs.  Do you think the NY deer herd is that broken and unhealthy? Does the health and future of the herd really depend on protecting younger bucks?  I truly believe there are more factors involved than that.  One could also view the 105 years as history and tradition.  

http://www.theoutdoorgazette.com/vermonts-antler-restricition-did-it-work/

[stubborn1VT]

We have a whole lot less deer in VT.  I already read the article, and I know it worked here.  I don't happen to agree with the reasoning in the article you posted.  I don't believe that protecting young bucks in areas with high deer density is the answer.  

I also don't believe in cramming new regulation down hunter's throats.  Regulations like AR are strictly about politics, not biology.  

[growalot]

Lol...you have skipped over the question I asked...as, it was written (your article) did I read it correctly?

[Raymond Purdy]

25 minutes ago, stubborn1VT said:

We have a whole lot less deer in VT.  I already read the article, and I know it worked here.  I don't happen to agree with the reasoning in the article you posted.  I don't believe that protecting young bucks in areas with high deer density is the answer.  

I also don't believe in cramming new regulation down hunter's throats.  Regulations like AR are strictly about politics, not biology.  

So you agree its working in VT, do you agree its working in PA.? http://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/WildlifeSpecies/White-tailedDeer/Pages/AntlerRestrictionsAreTheyWorking.aspx. But you say Biology is not involved???

[Raymond Purdy]

28 minutes ago, growalot said:

Lol...you have skipped over the question I asked...as, it was written (your article) did I read it correctly?

After 105 years of the same antler restriction do you think there have been advancements made that just may warrant a change?

[Raymond Purdy]

40 minutes ago, growalot said:

Lol...you have skipped over the question I asked...as, it was written (your article) did I read it correctly?

You should without a doubt reread it. LOL!

[Buckmaster7600]

Let me see...age structure...we are bad by killing the majority of the young buck. In the same breath it's bad the majority of the breeding is being done by the young buck. So the answer to this is protect the majority of the young buck with AR' s, So hunter go after the majority of bigger older bucks. This mainly being done during gun and the rut. Thus leaving the young buck to......breed the doe?????...Now remember a month prior to gun and the rut, bow hunters are targeting the more mature buck..and with cross bow  coming many more guys will be put there targeting all the bigger buck us greedy archers have been stealing from them for years...leaving even fewer mature buck for the rut...Am I reading this  long thing right?......

If you think mature are as easy to kill as a year and a half old buck than there is no reason for anyone to answer your question.


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[Buckmaster7600]

Not what I said..what I said was with cross bows coming in there will be more guys out there targeting the mature buck before the rut..There is no arguing that. Also no arguing that with more hunters for a longer time before the rut there WILL be an increase in buck harvest #'s before the rut.

Until guns are taken out of the rut archery kill numbers will never come close to gun numbers.


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[stubborn1VT]

Don't know about PA.  I don't believe that ARs are about herd health, it's about bigger racks.  If that's what the majority of hunters want, that's great.  The only biology involved is the fact that older bucks will have bigger bodies and often have bigger antlers.

[growalot]

Buckmaster perhaps you and Purdy should reread that article....I can't at the moment go through and quote that article to coincided with each thing I mentioned..perhaps tomorrow..though I'm sure you'll walk around that as well..lol

What I refer to is clearly written in the articles summary.

[Buckmaster7600]

Buckmaster perhaps you and Purdy should reread that article....I can't at the moment go through and quote that article to coincided with each thing I mentioned..perhaps tomorrow..though I'm sure you'll walk around that as well..lol
What I refer to is clearly written in the articles summary.

I haven't walked around anything, my point is after their first hunting season with horns bucks become increasingly harder to kill if they make it. If AR's are put in place more bucks that are 2 1/2+ will be killed but at a smaller percentage than 1 1/2 old bucks are currently this will increase the number of mature bucks. Archery kills make up such a small percentage of the total buck harvest and will continue to until guns are taken out of the rut.

Once again I am still not for a AR's but I am for a restructure of our seasons. Shorten gun seasons and take them out of the rut and a 1 buck rule would make a way bigger difference than AR's would. Me personally I have been pretty successful at killing mature bucks with the current seasons and enjoy the challenge. I don't need AR's for personal reasons but I can see where they could help some areas.

I still think AR's are a bandaid on a proverbial bullet hole. The only way I will ever be for AR's is if we can compromise give me 30minutes before and after sunset and I'll give in to AR's.


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