Norther Tier / Southern Tier Line

[Death From Above]

I am wondering if anyone can tell me how NY decided to place the dividing line between the Northern and Southern Tiers where they are currently.  Was it basically a straight (kind of) line that just gave it a northern half and a southern half?

I grew up hunting in the southern tier, then went to college and lived out of state for 15 years or so (Pennsylvania), then moved to the northern tier (Jefferson County) for the past 12 years.  Growing up I would hear about the big woods experience when hunting in the northern portion of the state.  I loved reading about hunters who would hop on a track and hunt down the bucks that they would shoot.  Most articles would talk about the fact that deer sightings were far and few between, but it was a very rewarding challenge of tracking down a buck.  If I remember correctly does where off limits for the most part in the northern tier, as there was a need to protect them for procreation. 

I always thought that the short bow season and much longer gun season in the NT was due to the lower deer density, terrain features, and lack of agriculture.  However, where I hunt and live in Jefferson County (6G), this is not the case.  I didn’t realize is that there is a large portion of the northern tier that is geographically very similar to what I would say most of the southern tier is.  I would say that typically we have as many deer in 6G as there are in many portions of the southern tier, and due to doe permit allocations here it appears that the DEC thinks this as well.  Move over a bit in some areas of 6K and there were still good numbers of deer to be seen, but once the snow came it was amazing to see so many more deer that seemed to migrate east toward the lake from the west.  I have heard it suggested that due to this migration potential the doe tag #s are kept lower so that a large number of these migrating deer are not harvested when they move toward wintering areas that have more food available and milder weather (less snow).

So I am curious as to why this western portion along the lake (or maybe other areas which I am less familiar with that are north of the magical line I am referring to), which has a high proportion of agriculture and high deer density, is managed the same way as the Adirondacks are for weapons and length of seasons.  Do we need an 8-week gun season to manage the deer herd in this area if it is strikingly similar to the southern tier?  When hunting during bow season the woods are just a different place for the deer.  There is a noticeable difference IMO between the way deer act during bow season and gun season.  To say they are stressed differently is an understatement, again IMO.  While I still enjoy hunting them during the gun season in the southern tier and PA, I always was glad it was a short two to three-week period, as they seemed so skittish and almost scared of everything during the gun season.  Now, in the northern tier, I watch them act like this for two months instead of two weeks.  Seems like a lot of stress for a long period of time.  It certainly isn’t a typical way of managing deer with similar numbers and similar habitat when compared to neighboring states, or even most states across the country. 

So if the state manages different WMUs based on deer numbers, human populations (weapon limitations), etc., why does NY include this area of the state along the lake with the prolonged northern gun season?  Does it take us northern tier hunters 8 weeks to fill our tags in this area?  Or is it just simply due to a tradition that the DEC doesn’t want to disrupt?

Curious to hear why you think the line is where it is, and if the longer gun seasons where put in for obvious reasons in the Adirondacks, then why they do keep them in place when the challenge to harvest a deer in areas like 6G doesn’t provide nearly the difficulty.

[Buckmaster7600]

I don't know why but I have the same problem. I am 5 miles from the line and have a ridiculously long gun season and it's all agriculture. I would love to see the state change NZ to only the Adirondack park!


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[Death From Above]

On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 10:01 PM, Buckmaster7600 said:

I don't know why but I have the same problem. I am 5 miles from the line and have a ridiculously long gun season and it's all agriculture. I would love to see the state change NZ to only the Adirondack park!


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Buckmaster, I understand your suggestion of the "problem" you mention, but after seeing what is happening on the thread about AR I am leery of describing this as a problem myself.  Don't want to start another war!  In fact, if I didn't bow hunt I'd probably think that I had died and gone to heaven if I lived in this part of the state that allowed some sort of firearm from mid October to mid December. 

I am surprised that with so many views so far that no one has either offered an opinion on why such a long gun season, or just said that it is due to tradition, and for that reason will likely never be changed.  I am assuming that is the reasoning it hasn't been addressed over the years.  That said, I did not grow up here and I am curious if there is a reason better than I have come up with.

 

[sailinghudson25]

I like the earlier season.  I think it helps bring in money to the northern areas.  I think this also saves a few hunters lives by being in warmer weather.  And is easier on herds before 18 inches of snow or so makes them  travel to yarding areas.

My club hammers them when the yarding snow comes.

I'll never complain hunting season is too long.  I'll let the girlfriend do it.

[Death From Above]

6 hours ago, sailinghudson25 said:

I like the earlier season.  I think it helps bring in money to the northern areas.  I think this also saves a few hunters lives by being in warmer weather.  And is easier on herds before 18 inches of snow or so makes them  travel to yarding areas.

My club hammers them when the yarding snow comes.

I'll never complain hunting season is too long.  I'll let the girlfriend do it.

 

SalingHudson…what WMU do you hunt in mostly?  Am I assuming correctly (username) that you are on the eastern side of the state?

I can’t say whether or not $ is a factor in our area over here by Lake Ontario, but I would assume that deer hunting has a minimal impact here as far as $ to the area.  That said I can imagine there are a lot of areas towards our east towards the Tug Hill Plateau that get see a good bit of travel and visitors during hunting season with all of the state land and camps.  I would assume that hunters contribute $ that way for sure.

Curious to hear if you would say that the area you hunt is mostly forest, resembling a more mountainous region like the ADK, or if it has a lot of farm land like we do over this way.

I have to assume that the anwser to my question revolves mostly around tradition, but I am curious to hear if anyone else has reasons that I cannot think of why our area here, which has an awful lot of agriculture land similar to where I grew up in the southern tier, sports a gun season like the ADK park.

[sailinghudson25]

I think it's 6j.  I am east of tug hill, near the stillwater reservoir.   I travel to work up to st lawrence.  Whole different game here.

There are differences in the northern tier farm versus forested area.  In terrain and the rules show that.  DMP allotment ts.  In my 6j area, you can not harvest a doe during muzzleloading season.  Turkey hunting I think is different too.

I hunt on logging compay leased land.  The deer numbers are noticeable better.  But luck does not come easily.  You need to know how to hunt thay area, and you need to know the area as well.

So, what wold you change?

Compare NY hunting to other areas of the northeast.  We have a long tine to hunt.  However, many do not hunt past the 2nd weekend of gun season.

I generally avoid early rifle season and gladly enjoy later rifle and muzzleloader season.  Less pressure, likely snow too.

[Death From Above]

 I agree in the fact it is a long season, just wonder why the gun season is so long here.  If I spent a lot of time bow hunting where you hunt I would think I might sit a lot longer waiting for harvest opportunities.  I understand why there is a short bow only season there.

Sure, if it was my choice I’d like to see the deer season in areas like 6g follow the southern tier dates for bow/gun.  I think it better fits both the habitat (lots of fields and ag land) and higher deer densities like the southern tier, and would be closer to what the majority of what is seen across the country.  I am not sure where, but I am sure there are exceptions to this in some state, somewhere, it might be possible that there might be an 8-week gun season in an area with high deer numbers.  Don’t know of many that limit the bow only season to 2 weeks, however.

All that said, I don’t make the rules, just live with them.  Guess if I was solely a gun hunter I might think it is great to have two months to shoot farm deer with a gun.  I am just trying to figure out why the NYS DEC keeps this area on same “schedule”, as the rest of the Northern Tier.  For a while I wondered if it might be due to lower human population up here, but I am not sure the area is any less populated than much of the rest of the state.

If they manage different areas based on habitat and deer density for doe tags – as you mentioned with 6J – then one might think they would handle this area by a means that they see as important.  I just can’t figure out what those reasons are.  Seems more like southern tier hunting habitat and deer numbers to me…maybe we could be 7”G”…there are plenty of letters left, right?

I imagine this topic would break on pretty sharp lines between bow and gun hunters, when considering whether one was for change or not, so that topic doesn’t merit too much discussion I’d say.  It would only result in an argument for sure.  The very fact that I am bringing it up points to the fact that I am likely a bow hunter.  To me there is not much that compares to the peace and quiet of the archery season, especially when the deer seem to appreciate that quietness as well, and the rut gets kicked in.  Having a gun season that goes through the majority of the rut is a completely different experience.   Our deer seem to be skittish and on edge for two months straight.  Again, mot your normal rut feel from what I have seen in the past 10+ years. 

Once again, I am just searching for the rationale behind the inclusion of this area into the Northern Tier's super long gun season.

Thanks for responding by the way.  

[DirtTime]

It's actually the line separating the Northern and Southern ZONES. The "Southern Tier" is judged mainly by personal point of views on where people hunt.

The reason the gun season is so long is because most of the Northern Zone isn't farm land, it's the ADK Park and it's a huge area of woods, tough woods at that. The season is longer because most areas do not allow shooting a doe, and have AR's. There are areas in the Northern Zone you could hunt for years and never even see a legal buck. So, the long season allows for people who hunt the big woods up there the time to kill a legal buck.

[Death From Above]

21 hours ago, ....rob said:

It's actually the line separating the Northern and Southern ZONES. The "Southern Tier" is judged mainly by personal point of views on where people hunt.

The reason the gun season is so long is because most of the Northern Zone isn't farm land, it's the ADK Park and it's a huge area of woods, tough woods at that. The season is longer because most areas do not allow shooting a doe, and have AR's. There are areas in the Northern Zone you could hunt for years and never even see a legal buck. So, the long season allows for people who hunt the big woods up there the time to kill a legal buck.

 

Yes, I should have used ZONE instead of TIER.  Old habit I guess of always saying tier instead of using the same reference the DEC uses.

Not sure if you read my initial post or any of the ones after.  I certainly understand why there is a long gun season in the northern zone, even said I understand the necessity for it.  My question centered around the fact that there is at least one portion of the northern zone that doesn’t resemble the northern zone you described in either terrain or hunting opportunities.  Hence my question as to why it offers the same structure of hunting seasons.

[DirtTime]

2 hours ago, Death From Above said:

 

Yes, I should have used ZONE instead of TIER.  Old habit I guess of always saying tier instead of using the same reference the DEC uses.

Not sure if you read my initial post or any of the ones after.  I certainly understand why there is a long gun season in the northern zone, even said I understand the necessity for it.  My question centered around the fact that there is at least one portion of the northern zone that doesn’t resemble the northern zone you described in either terrain or hunting opportunities.  Hence my question as to why it offers the same structure of hunting seasons.

I cannot answer that, nor can most answer why certain WMU's in the NZ get DMP's, while most do not. I posted an image similar to the one below a while back, but revised it a bit a few months ago. It's my personal perception of how the areas of NYS are divided by section. I believe the NZ - SZ line was created to section off the actual northern part of the state. As it is the most remote area of this state.

 

[Death From Above]

9 hours ago, ....rob said:

I cannot answer that, nor can most answer why certain WMU's in the NZ get DMP's, while most do not. I posted an image similar to the one below a while back, but revised it a bit a few months ago. It's my personal perception of how the areas of NYS are divided by section. I believe the NZ - SZ line was created to section off the actual northern part of the state. As it is the most remote area of this state.

 

I think you are correct, the simply drew a straight line.  That is what I am assuming, and the fact they don’t want to change it due to “tradition”.  Still makes no sense to me as they make such an effort to break the “6’s” up and like you said, and provide DMPs for some areas and not others.  It seems they would consider other changes as well, but apparently not.