Why Does No One Care About This?

[DirtTime]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-northkorea-detainee-idUSKBN19A2TW

 

My thoughts and prayers go out to Otto Warmbier's family!

[Doc]

Quote: "Otto Warmbier, 22, who was arrested in North Korea while visiting as a tourist"

I am sitting here trying my hardest to imagine what circumstances would have to exist that would make me somehow envision North Korea as being a nice place to visit as a tourist. The whole thing certainly is a terrible tragedy and once again highlights the uncivilized brutality and the barbaric nature of that country, but what on earth would ever motivate a U.S. citizen to visit such a place "as a tourist"?

[The_Real_TCIII]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

Quote: "Otto Warmbier, 22, who was arrested in North Korea while visiting as a tourist"

I am sitting here trying my hardest to imagine what circumstances would have to exist that would make me somehow envision North Korea as being a nice place to visit as a tourist. The whole thing certainly is a terrible tragedy and once again highlights the uncivilized brutality and the barbaric nature of that country, but what on earth would ever motivate a U.S. citizen to visit such a place "as a tourist"?

And steal a poster while youre there

[Core]

I feel bad for him but my sympathy must necessarily be limited for the same reason I have limited sympathy for people who rock climb without safety gear or ride motorcycles without helmets. Any reasonable person knows NK kidnaps people. It has a long history of doing so, over trivial and often non-existent acts.

In his case he went to an unpredictable country and committed a crime. Of course his crime was trivial, and even stealing a painting off the wall of the oval office wouldn't result in a punishment anywhere close to execution, which is what he got.

NK murdered him over a poster. That is on them. But, people, stop @*#&ing visiting NK.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

53 minutes ago, Core said:

I feel bad for him but my sympathy must necessarily be limited for the same reason I have limited sympathy for people who rock climb without safety gear or ride motorcycles without helmets. Any reasonable person knows NK kidnaps people. It has a long history of doing so, over trivial and often non-existent acts.

In his case he went to an unpredictable country and committed a crime. Of course his crime was trivial, and even stealing a painting off the wall of the oval office wouldn't result in a punishment anywhere close to execution, which is what he got.

NK murdered him over a poster. That is on them. But, people, stop @*#&ing visiting NK.

It is a different culture over there. One we understand little and relate to less. My Uncle was there during the Korean war. Told this story to me once after a few beers. He never spoke of his service.

His mother sent him a nice red hand knit scarf for Christmas, it was monogrammed.  He wore it a lot and one day he washed it. Hung it on his tent line to dry and when he went to get it it was gone.  He notice a South Korean soldier wearing it. He went to the soldiers superior and asked that he get his scarf back. He said the officers were the ones most likely to speak English.  The officer approached the soldier and spoke to him. The soldier handed the scarf to his superior and in turn it was handed to my Uncle. The soldier knelt down and the superior drew his pistol and executed the soldier right there. 

[philoshop]

9 hours ago, Doc said:

Quote: "Otto Warmbier, 22, who was arrested in North Korea while visiting as a tourist"

I am sitting here trying my hardest to imagine what circumstances would have to exist that would make me somehow envision North Korea as being a nice place to visit as a tourist. The whole thing certainly is a terrible tragedy and once again highlights the uncivilized brutality and the barbaric nature of that country, but what on earth would ever motivate a U.S. citizen to visit such a place "as a tourist"?

Being young and uninformed is the short answer.

[philoshop]

My question is not so much why the kid was captured and held hostage for 18 months, but how he was slowly killed during his captivity. NK has over 100,000 of their own people in concentration camps at any given time, and regularly kills it's own citizens through starvation and a variety of other means, so the question of why they would kill an American is almost pointless. He was released when he was because the North Koreans didn't want a dead American on their soil.

The destruction of Otto Warmbier's brain was calculated and occurred over a relatively short period of time. There are basically three ways this happens:

1. Blunt force trauma. Fists or sticks or whatever to the head, but there don't appear to be the broken bones to indicate this.

2. Drugs. Heavy doses of narcotics. Possible, but not really likely for a few reasons: he was basically convicted for spying, and why would they want to kill the kid before they got whatever information they thought he might have. That quantity of narcotics in such a short period of time will show up in an autopsy, at any rate.

3. Asphyxiation. When prolonged, this kind of extensive brain damage is the exact result. Something like repetitive daily water-boarding over many months would produce the "extensive damage to all regions of the brain" that were talked about by the attending physicians who examined him in the U.S. It leaves no marks and no forensic traces.

This kid, who tried to pull a very stupid prank in a Communist country, was likely tortured to death for trying to steal a propaganda poster. Teach your children well. The world is not one big happy family.

The next question is what is the appropriate U.S. response?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I told my wife when this story broke that I bet there was an over zealous guard / interrogator that is missing in NK right now. That little dough boy dictator is bat sh!t crazy but I honestly think he doesn't want any type of conflict with the US until his missiles are fully functional. The kid was propaganda fodder and someone got carried away and they had to get him back to the US quickly. 

[philoshop]

Warmbier was a bargaining chip until they went too far and killed his brain. He wasn't a political prisoner. He was a hostage, and a negotiating tool who became a potential liability to the NK regime. Then they sent him back.

My next door neighbor Stan, rest his soul, was a survivor of the Chosin Reservoir campaign in Korea. We came to be good friends and I was taking notes every day during our conversations, thinking I'd write a book for him. Occasionally he would open up a bit about his service. Those soldiers he was with in the ice-filled trenches promised each other that they would kill one another before falling into North Korean hands. He wasn't kidding, or being dramatic.

[Core]

9 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

It is a different culture over there. One we understand little and relate to less. My Uncle was there during the Korean war. Told this story to me once after a few beers. He never spoke of his service.

His mother sent him a nice red hand knit scarf for Christmas, it was monogrammed.  He wore it a lot and one day he washed it. Hung it on his tent line to dry and when he went to get it it was gone.  He notice a South Korean soldier wearing it. He went to the soldiers superior and asked that he get his scarf back. He said the officers were the ones most likely to speak English.  The officer approached the soldier and spoke to him. The soldier handed the scarf to his superior and in turn it was handed to my Uncle. The soldier knelt down and the superior drew his pistol and executed the soldier right there. 

Then there's Seppuku. The West sees it as nuts, but some in asia just have a more developed sense of honor than we do. Nothing says I own this mistake more than that action.

I also agree with the above that NK didn't intend for this to happen to the guy and have probably spent the last year+ hoping he'd recover. They gave him two MRIs shortly after his coma, and when things either went south or they realized it was a lost cause, they sent him home. We shouldn't reengage in a war over one guy making a dumb mistake, but it does tell a bit more about the regime. I personally believe the NK regime to be at the top of the pile of evil in our world right now. No other country so systematically and to such a degree tortures and kills and enslaves its people. I would still like to see multiple cruise missiles dropped on their equivalent of congress next time all of them are in session praising dear leader.

[Paula]

It is terrible what happened to him, sad his family was so far from him to see. Must have been scary as hell for all of them. I know they are all warned about rules and given information on some laws, what the hell was he think stealing anything!

I agree over zealous guard and he is now where to be found.

[Steuben Jerry]

18 hours ago, philoshop said:

The next question is what is the appropriate U.S. response?

From some reason this hit me personally and I don't know why. I didn't know him, nor have I even been close to any similar circumstances ever. I guess it's just because I've got kids and I sympathize with the family.

Philo asks a good question. I certainly don't want a war over it. Lobbing a few cruise missiles inbound like we do from time to time would probably start one.

But damn, that kid performed what would probably be considered a prank in the normal world, and was murdered for it. He was certainly naïve about the consequences and I know that it's SOP in North Korea for their people to treat their own people like vermin, but a US citizen was taken into custody, kept hidden from his family, most likely tortured to death, and his almost dead body was sent home. Not for any compassionate act, rather so he didn't actually expire on their soil.

Somehow, someway there needs to be accountability. This is truly a tough situation.

[philoshop]

1 hour ago, Paula said:

It is terrible what happened to him, sad his family was so far from him to see. Must have been scary as hell for all of them. I know they are all warned about rules and given information on some laws, what the hell was he think stealing anything!

I agree over zealous guard and he is now where to be found.

I don't know if it was an over-zealous guard or just the general thinking of that regime, but the pain of the Warmbier family is an American pain. I also don't know exactly how hard Obama worked to get Warmbier freed, so I won't lay blame on the past administration. There simply is not a more brutal dictatorship on the planet than NK. That they have ambitions to spread that style of dictatorship is the immediate concern. We have people in this country who approve of that style of government, and stopping them is probably the best we can do in the world.

[The_Field_Ager]

We just need to stop feeding the people of N.Korea. The regime would collapse within 12 months or less. No need for another Raytheon sponsored war

[growalot]

Why no thought as to this possibly being another prisoner having done something...thinking it would cause problems and put a huge spot light on the rest of the detainees? They'd never admit that..It would make them look like they can't control there prisoners...unfortunate accident.." saves face " like that's possible...Bad things happen with the start of one bad decision.. His was buying a ticket...

[philoshop]

The tour group Warmbier was with has stopped sending Americans into N Korea. That's a start.

I have a niece and nephew who are both 'world travelers' because their grandfather is wealthy and buys them the tickets. They're both good kids and both very bright kids, but I can easily picture either one them getting in the kind of trouble that Wambier got into. They're Jewish and go to Israel two or three times a year. It's a relatively safe ME country but you have to pay attention to your surroundings. They don't always do that. It's called situational awareness.

[DirtTime]

I am sure the stolen poster was a prank. College kids do that. Otto was sentenced to 15 years in a North Korean prison for his silliness. 15 years for an American stealing a poster? Sorry this was extremism. The trauma he suffered there did him in. The only reason they let him come home was to try and NOT have a full blown "International Incident" and he died in a NK prison cell.

From news reports, even the "Main Stream Media" there are still two more American Citizens ( not associated with this particular incident ) still being held.

NK is stepping on it's own *&^% !  

[Karpteach]

First off, he shouldn't have been there. Second, play stupid games in STUPID countries and you will win stupid prizes. It's a shame he suffere, he should if not been there. There are countries you should never go to, North Korea is one of them. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

12 hours ago, ....rob said:

I am sure the stolen poster was a prank. College kids do that. Otto was sentenced to 15 years in a North Korean prison for his silliness. 15 years for an American stealing a poster? Sorry this was extremism.

It isn't extreme in their system. Better know the details about where you are going. Dorthy found out she wasn't in Kansas anymore. 

[left field]

I lived in Singapore for a number of years and learned to keep my nose clean. The day I tried to fly in with a .44 round cigar cutter in my attache case was not a happy day. 

[philoshop]

It's a Communist, totalitarian regime. You can be imprisoned for any reason, or even for no reason at all. It's the way they roll. And no, there are no 'good' Communist states.

A big part of this tragedy can be laid directly on the U.S. education system, to be honest. Kids are no longer taught about the realities of Communism and Socialism. They're brutal by nature, and hugs and apologies won't fix things when you screw up no matter what the Progressives think.

[Core]

3 hours ago, philoshop said:

It's a Communist, totalitarian regime. You can be imprisoned for any reason, or even for no reason at all. It's the way they roll. And no, there are no 'good' Communist states.

A big part of this tragedy can be laid directly on the U.S. education system, to be honest. Kids are no longer taught about the realities of Communism and Socialism. They're brutal by nature, and hugs and apologies won't fix things when you screw up no matter what the Progressives think.

This nails it. It's the same reason why people just assume that something like the holocaust could never happen again. it was soooooooooo long ago and we're just so much better now. But it was only like 2-3 generations ago.

As for people who are ignorant of NK and don't believe it's as bad as it really is: I read a couple days ago about a woman who went on a tour to NK, I think with the company that now says it won't let Americans no its tours. She said a couple of people in her party from the west thought all the anti-nk stuff was western propaganda, and another who thought the same and hated the US.

This is why kids need to hear stories about monsters from time to time. Because sometimes they're real. NK is an evil in a modern age on par with some of the very best from history. And as for enslaving or killing innocents, who cares? It's even helpful. If people feel that from time to time innocents are killed, well imagine how much the true criminals will get for punishment?

That's why the only just, reasonable thing to happen to kim jong un is to be the recipient of a lot of ordnance. Not because NK is a threat to the US (it's not), but because the country is evil. It's too bad so many people who are helped can't help themselves (case in point most of the middle east). I like to think NK could be an exception, since it is flanked by three nations all of which have functioning societies and hopefully could show it a better route if its regime was exploded.

[DirtTime]

So, the consensus on here is, that because he went there and took a piece of paper, he deserved to be abused to the point of a coma, and then death? Sorry, maybe I am misreading the replies, but it sure seems that way!

 

If you look around there a pretty large amount of companies offering tours to NK. Should anyone take these tours? No! But people do! The same way people still go to other not so great countries. 

How many college kids read the rules? Did you? Did you have alcohol in your dorm room when you were under age? Did you prank other students in college? Most of you on here are old enough where "Hazing" was legal. Did you ever go to far in hazing? You make mistakes when you are young! 

You are over looking and underestimating the the point! An American was sentenced to 15 years for stealing a poster. That American died as a cause of abuse in a country that doesn't care about anyone! All over a mo$#@# fu&%$# poster!

 

 

[Doc]

5 hours ago, ....rob said:

So, the consensus on here is, that because he went there and took a piece of paper, he deserved to be abused to the point of a coma, and then death? Sorry, maybe I am misreading the replies, but it sure seems that way!

 

If you look around there a pretty large amount of companies offering tours to NK. Should anyone take these tours? No! But people do! The same way people still go to other not so great countries. 

How many college kids read the rules? Did you? Did you have alcohol in your dorm room when you were under age? Did you prank other students in college? Most of you on here are old enough where "Hazing" was legal. Did you ever go to far in hazing? You make mistakes when you are young! 

You are over looking and underestimating the the point! An American was sentenced to 15 years for stealing a poster. That American died as a cause of abuse in a country that doesn't care about anyone! All over a mo$#@# fu&%$# poster!

 

 

Yup, you are misreading the replies. I have yet to see anyone reply that he deserved to die. I am seeing a consensus that perhaps even traveling to such a country probably is not the smartest thing in the world to do, but that has nothing to do with anyone deserving to die.

[stubby68]

10 hours ago, ....rob said:

So, the consensus on here is, that because he went there and took a piece of paper, he deserved to be abused to the point of a coma, and then death? Sorry, maybe I am misreading the replies, but it sure seems that way!

 

If you look around there a pretty large amount of companies offering tours to NK. Should anyone take these tours? No! But people do! The same way people still go to other not so great countries. 

How many college kids read the rules? Did you? Did you have alcohol in your dorm room when you were under age? Did you prank other students in college? Most of you on here are old enough where "Hazing" was legal. Did you ever go to far in hazing? You make mistakes when you are young! 

You are over looking and underestimating the the point! An American was sentenced to 15 years for stealing a poster. That American died as a cause of abuse in a country that doesn't care about anyone! All over a mo$#@# fu&%$# poster!

 

 

Did the kid deserve the abuse and ultimately death he recieved. I think not. Foe me it's not that I don't care but when you go to other countries you need to know and okay there laws. Especially ones like NK. Just because the crime is a nothing crime in our country does not mean it is in other countries. Different laws ad different punishments. Like I said I do not think he deserved what he got nor did his family but I will not feel sorry for him. Just I would not feel sorry for someone who stabbed themselves in the eye with a pencil. They know the out come is going to be bad so why do it.