Do You Support Crossbow Full Inclusion into the NY Archery Season?

[Doc]

No to full inclusion.

[Doc]

2 hours ago, nyslowhand said:

What is it about some of us die-hard archery hunters that stubbornly refuse to let crossbows into the bow season? We had almost no reservation about the intro of compound bows. Now we're drawing the line in the sand...?

JMO, but as a life long bow hunter it embarrasses me to read some of the selfish reasons for not considering Xbows as archery tackle. 

Do agree with others that would like the bow hunting safety course to be more in depth and a requirement for hunting w/Xbows. A special license for Xbow hunting might help pay for these additional training expenses. Grumble..$$. With a special license, the DEC could track Xbow harvests, unlike how it currently is grouped into "bow kills". All the above could possibly do away with that stereotypical scenario of a gun hunter who's never hunted with a bow from signing a stupid certification, purchasing a ML license, buying a Xbow and using it the next day. I've heard these horror stories 1st hand and as a bow AND Xbow hunter they upset me!!

Don't kid yourself. There was plenty of opposition to compounds back in the day. The argument was that compounds were just the precedent for the addition of more and more unintended weapons in bow seasons. And sure enough, compounds have been used as the pry-bar for inclusion of cross bows. And now we have another giant precedent set that will lead to other future inclusions. Bow season is in the process of completely losing its identity as we march along the path of eliminating all the reasons that we have a special bow season in the first place. The talk has already begun, asking why bowhunters need a special season as success rates continue to climb, but we still keep cheerfully moving along that path.

[Core]

I do NOT WANT full inclusion. BTW, I bought a crossbow this year. I would like to see the first 5 weeks vertical only as it is today.

My reasons you've all read before. I'm surprised gun hunters are not more up in arms. If it goes full inclusion I'll bring out the xbow Oct 1, but for a gun hunter now they have had even more people than ever before ruining the woods for the prior 7 weeks leaving them with sloppy seconds. If I were a gun-only hunter I would be vehemently against full inclusion. 

Most of the arguments supporting full inclusion could also be used to support, say, muzzleloading starting Oct 1 as well. Be careful what you wish for.

[tughillmcd]

52 minutes ago, Core said:

Most of the arguments supporting full inclusion could also be used to support, say, muzzleloading starting Oct 1 as well. Be careful what you wish for.

Arguments like "it propels an arrow utilizing the energy from bent limbs and strings at similar velocities as vertical bows?

Yep, that sure sounds like a muzzleloader to me!

Edited October 3, 2017 by tughillmcd

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 hour ago, Core said:

Most of the arguments supporting full inclusion could also be used to support, say, muzzleloading starting Oct 1 as well. Be careful what you wish for.

Just curious, can you explain what arguments supporting full inclusion would be able to be used to support adding guns to an archery season?

 

[nybuckboy]

Do crossbow kills have their own record books kills? Certainly should not be in archery books.

[growalot]

Core I am having a difficult time understanding your logic. Take no offense but Cross bows are in the best time of buck hunting...the last two weeks in bow and going into gun season...Now you may say who would use it in gun and that makes no difference. Though it does because at the first signs of gun pressure those buck follow doe to safer zones. Gun hunters,including some bow are thinking aahh gun more reach better odds... Though now with having the lower safety zones for archery, it could actually  give them better opportunities with 150' for compound and only 250' for cross bow. There are some nice buck taken early season but mainly doe and notice on the forum...Guys are not burning vacation and family time during early season bow...Why would gun hunters be angry?...They could  pick up a cross bow early season with no problems. If anything in early bow not prime time is what they should want and have now. I have to say depending on what happens during bow season...I will be sitting in a stand dressed in orange down in the swamp with my cross bow opening day of gun...it's the legal weapon I can use down there. Also less chance of running off the property due to blood loss not shock. If it is public land pressure...I'm pretty sure guys won't be burning time much more in early season bow with a cross bow than now. Maybe the first couple of years until they realize they aren't seeing all the buck they thought were running past archers before they could be out there. Rarely does ones imagination match reality.

[Nomad]

yep,I'm all for it , two bad shoulders and I'd like to stay in the woods hunting .

Hard to believe guys think that today's compounds have some large learning curve anymore . Like I said in other threads , one guy I work with got his first compound this year , his buddy went through it and give him a lesson ,Golf ball sized groups at 30 yards first night shooting .

Another guy joined a dozen or so others from work in a 3D league , never shot a bow once before , started the league using another guys bow . He WON the league that year . The only time he shot was league night , zero practice .

I can't count the number of guys on the job who kill deer their first year with a bow . 

 Id like to keep using a compound , seems easier to carry and shoot out of a stand , but old age is taking its toll .

Hasnt our neighbor Ohio had it for over 30 years ?

Did the sky fall there ? No .

Did gun hunting there start to suck no.

Season length change ? No

Edited October 3, 2017 by Stay at home Nomad

[growalot]

Quote

Do crossbow kills have their own record books kills? Certainly should not be in archery books.

I do not get this either...are you saying record book animals shot in gun are lesser trophies than a bow record.?

 I see it this way a good shot is a good shot no matter what the weapon...the proximity to the hunter is chance...both my bigger gun bucks were closer to me than my bigger bow ones...shovel nose was a mere 10 ft in shot gun and the 3 beamed 9 was 50 ft if that...the swamp buck was 35 yrds and another big 8 was 28yrds in bow...the  2 monster the neighbors  dragged of were 17yrd bow and 20 gun. even that didn't make a difference with weapon

So why would it need it's own book?

Edited October 3, 2017 by growalot

[chas0218]

No thanks keep it the way it is why bitch when you have the best 2 weeks of the year as it is. Take what you have or get rid of them completely go back to no crossbow.

[airedale]

NO X 5

[chas0218]

1 minute ago, growalot said:

I do not get this either...are you saying record book animals shot in gun are lesser trophies than a bow record.?

 I see it this way a good shot is a good shot no matter what the weapon...the proximity to the hunter is chance...both my bigger gun bucks were closer to me than my bigger bow ones...shovel nose was a mere 10 yrs in shot gun and the 3 beamed 9 was 50 ft if that...the swamp buck was 35 yrds and another big 8 was 28yrds in bow...the  2 monster the neighbors  dragged of were 17yrd bow and 20 gun. even that didn't make a difference with weapon

So why would it need it's own book?

Yeah bow is not the same as gun when you can reach out to 100 yards and shoot a deer through the woods without anything other than putting cross hairs on the animal it doesn't take near the skill it takes to shoot a deer with an actual bow at 30 or 40 yards. 100 yards with a rifle is a chip shot.

To OP @tughillmcd add a poll to get an idea of the numbers for and against.

[Nomad]

I killed a deer with a bow my first year bow  hunting in 1,989 and most years since , and frankly the years I didn't I was holding out for a big buck that never showed . It's not that hard . 

Id say the portable tree stand is by far a greater advantage then  a crossbow .

 

[growalot]

Not everyone has that skill...Are you then saying that sighted compounds should have their own record book too?...Because unless you have shot instinctive verses sighted bow there is a huge difference... Perhaps there should be all separate books. This for those like myself that shoot open site guns and instinctive bow,compound not traditional, and those that shoot scoped guns and sighted bows...lets put in range categories as well. Have record books for those that shoot within 100yrds and past a 100 in gun...break it down to with in15 yards or over 15 for bow...where would you like that dividing line to end?

Edited October 3, 2017 by growalot

[moog5050]

I think archery should be limited to self bows shot off the hand (no cheater shelf) with self made wood arrows and flint heads.  That's the true spirit of archery.   

OK, I really don't care.  I have no problem with crossbows being allowed.  I would object to a weapon requiring powder like a ML but otherwise, I have no objection.  We can all challenge ourselves to whatever degree we choose.

[Five Seasons]

4 hours ago, nyslowhand said:

What is it about some of us die-hard archery hunters that stubbornly refuse to let crossbows into the bow season? We had almost no reservation about the intro of compound bows. Now we're drawing the line in the sand...?

JMO, but as a life long bow hunter it embarrasses me to read some of the selfish reasons for not considering Xbows as archery tackle. 

Do agree with others that would like the bow hunting safety course to be more in depth and a requirement for hunting w/Xbows. A special license for Xbow hunting might help pay for these additional training expenses. Grumble..$$. With a special license, the DEC could track Xbow harvests, unlike how it currently is grouped into "bow kills". All the above could possibly do away with that stereotypical scenario of a gun hunter who's never hunted with a bow from signing a stupid certification, purchasing a ML license, buying a Xbow and using it the next day. I've heard these horror stories 1st hand and as a bow AND Xbow hunter they upset me!!

there's a line. this crosses it for me.

https://www.ispot.tv/ad/A4xJ/ravin-crossbows-100-yards

 

is this really "archery"?

[chas0218]

16 minutes ago, growalot said:

Not everyone has that skill...Are you then saying that sighted compounds should have their own record book too?...Because unless you have shot instinctive verses sighted bow there is a huge difference... Perhaps there should be all separate books those like myself that shoot open site guns and instinctive bow,compound not traditional, and those that shoot scoped guns and sighted bows...lets put in range categories as well. Have record books for those that shoot within 100yrds and past a 100 in gun...break it down to with in15 yards or over 15 for bow...where would you like that dividing line to end?

I honestly shouldn't respond to the nonsense, but none of what you typed makes sense. If you don't have the skill to hunt archery then practice you will learn the skill needed. You can have a sighted traditional just like a compound. It's the idea that you have to actually draw the bow while the animal is within plain sight. It's much more difficult than shoulder something hitting the safety and pulling a trigger.

How many crossbows have you shot? How hard was it to accurately shoot it? Myself I have shot several, 3 out to 80 yards without much more than putting the correct line across the target. They are more similar to a gun than a bow and shouldn't be considered for full inclusion. I'm not sure how people can state how they shoot the same speed, fastest bow on the market 340 fastest crossbow 440. They aren't even close! I also would like to see any joe shmoe shoot 3 arrow group at 30 yards out of the 340fps bow then try the 440 wonder which will be better.

Edited October 3, 2017 by chas0218

[Lawdwaz]

No......

[Five Seasons]

1 hour ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Just curious, can you explain what arguments supporting full inclusion would be able to be used to support adding guns to an archery season?

 

well there are some some seasons in other states that allow this. For example, in mississippi they have primitive weapons season 2 weeks between bow and gun opener. you can continue to bow hunt (best time of the year) or you can bring in the smoke pole. I can promise you, especially when hunting pressured land that it's not easy to choose the stick and string over the front stuffer. The fear is that it doesn't stop at the crossbow.

 

[Five Seasons]

39 minutes ago, Stay at home Nomad said:

yep,I'm all for it , two bad shoulders and I'd like to stay in the woods hunting .

Hard to believe guys think that today's compounds have some large learning curve anymore . Like I said in other threads , one guy I work with got his first compound this year , his buddy went through it and give him a lesson ,Golf ball sized groups at 30 yards first night shooting .

Another guy joined a dozen or so others from work in a 3D league , never shot a bow once before , started the league using another guys bow . He WON the league that year . The only time he shot was league night , zero practice .

I can't count the number of guys on the job who kill deer their first year with a bow . 

 Id like to keep using a compound , seems easier to carry and shoot out of a stand , but old age is taking its toll .

Hasnt our neighbor Ohio had it for over 30 years ?

Did the sky fall there ? No .

Did gun hunting there start to suck no.

Season length change ? No

i've yet to meet another hunter who wouldn't support an easier permit system for people with disabilities. 

It's not hard shoot a good practice group. But get in a stand, fully geared up in 25* weather after sitting for 3 hours with your heart pounding and do it all just the same? Oh and don't get busted by the draw. Oh and dont forget to bend at the waist and don't drop your bow arm because you're not flat footed in the backyard in shorts and a t-shirt. Stop pretending like it's a cake walk.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Belo

[growalot]

Grant you that and that is where the original post went very wrong IMO:

Quote

2) Do you want to see the arbitrary restrictions on Draw Weight and Limb Width removed?

See like with most things...They couldn't just be happy getting inclusion,they need to make the inclusion far superior than what is already there. I can not look at that sentence with out saying pure greed...bad enough they don't have to take the bow hunters course...If this is what they are going for, then perhaps things need to stay as they are after all....

[BigVal]

Yep someone will make a crossbow that you have to crank up thatll fire a bolt at record speeds and change the game that much more. No thanks, stick with drawing a bow by hand when a shot opportunity comes. 

[tughillmcd]

17 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

fastest bow on the market 340 fastest crossbow 440. 

Fasted compound is the PSE Full Throttle at 370 fps and the fastest crossbow is the Scorpyd at 450 fps.

How many people shoot the fastest compound? The average compound is  shooting around 325- 340 while the average crossbow is shooting around 350. 

Not that far off. If you want to compare speed as the litmus test, then compare your fastest compound to a longbow or recurve. Or better yet, compare the average traditional to the average compound. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

16 minutes ago, Belo said:

there's a line. this crosses it for me.

https://www.ispot.tv/ad/A4xJ/ravin-crossbows-100-yards

 

is this really "archery"?

Yes it is. Its an arrow propelled by energy stored in the limbs, off of a string. It kills with a broadhead in the same manor as any other type of bow. The Ravin is actually slightly more similar to a vertical bow in that the arrow doesnt travel down any type of (whats referred to as) rail or "barrel". It sits on a rest just like a vertical bow. Just because they market it as "shooting rifle like groups" at 100 yards, doesnt mean you should be taking 100 yard shots through the woods with it.

Its also not legal to hunt with in NY due to it not being wide enough to meet the regs.

[WNYBuckHunter]

25 minutes ago, Belo said:

well there are some some seasons in other states that allow this. For example, in mississippi they have primitive weapons season 2 weeks between bow and gun opener. you can continue to bow hunt (best time of the year) or you can bring in the smoke pole. I can promise you, especially when hunting pressured land that it's not easy to choose the stick and string over the front stuffer. The fear is that it doesn't stop at the crossbow.

 

I didnt ask for fears.