tughillmcd

Do You Support Crossbow Full Inclusion into the NY Archery Season?

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2 minutes ago, Belo said:

i'm really not riled up at all. i'm just not motivated to do work today. i think it's a good discussion.

Me either. I could really easily just leave work and go do something else for the rest of the day lol.

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1 minute ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

You mean like a release and cams with a let off?

what is mechanical in my shoulder when pulling back a string? what cocking device am I using? And please don't go down that path. the crossbow stays cocked. Yes there is a letoff, yes there is something attached to my wrist when pulling back. No it's not a recurve. But it's still not even close and you know it.

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1 minute ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Me either. I could really easily just leave work and go do something else for the rest of the day lol.

i'm trying to save that for the end of October early November :)

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Just now, Belo said:

what is mechanical in my shoulder when pulling back a string? what cocking device am I using? And please don't go down that path. the crossbow stays cocked. Yes there is a letoff, yes there is something attached to my wrist when pulling back. No it's not a recurve. But it's still not even close and you know it.

The mechanical release holding onto the string, and creating a slightly different type of pull (if its attached to the wrist). The cams make drawing the bow back simpler and lighter so that it can shoot the arrow faster and allow it to be held drawn longer. Sorry man, just facts.

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those are facts, but they're not on the same level as the video i posted or other crossbow aids. The whole argument for crossbows at one point was for the disabled and you know my stance on that. So you just cant compare the 2. You aren't going to win this one with me. there are other holes you can poke at, but not that one.

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24 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Its funny though, the anti-crossbow crowd just cant help themselves, and visit the crossbow forum constantly just to piss and moan.

Maybe we should follow their lead and just become trolls in the bow forum and blow it up over there!  Oh wait a minute. I'm a bow hunter too as are the majority of people that are working for full inclusion. 

The difference between us and the Anti-Hunters  oops Anti-Crossbow Hunters is we believe all hunters should be a brotherhood and that we should work to get as many people involved in hunting as we can to pass on our traditions and to preserve the sport. 

Most people do not know the history of bow hunting in NY, how it was created, and the pushback to even create a separate archery season. People need to get a grip and understand everyone is different. Even within the vertical bow community, there are people that only tradition hunt and don't believe compound bows belong in bow season. There are compound shooters that hunt instinctive and no release. 

Hunting is not about implements, it is about the hunt. If everyone hunted with the same implement in bow and gun seasons, there would only be the need 1 bow and one gun, 1 release,  1 sight, 1 scope etc.

Go back to 1940 when long bows were first permitted to hunt with in NY. It took until 1956 to get a special bow season,  and that was for only 1 week. There were no tree stands, no sent lock, no trail cams, no compounds, no space age materials used. 


The original bow season was controversial because those opposed to it said there will be thousands of wounded deer running around with arrows in them. These people will ruin the woods before we get to go out.  Pretty much the same arguments we hear today. No different when compounds were introduced, then sights and releases were fought against. Yet, most of those that fight against crossbows, whether they use a compound bow or traditional bow at least condone the use of compound bows with their 90% let off, sights, releases. Equipment whose technology and ease of use far exceeds the bow hunters of that first bow season back in 1956. Even the traditional shooter uses technology that didn't exist back then, tree stands, cover scents, deer lure's, trail cams. 

The world does not stand still. The Hunting community is one the largest segments of the State and Country when it comes to how much money is spent pursuing our sport. Can you imagine how much could be accomplished for the good of the sports if everyone could put aside their petty differences, agree to disagree with how you hunt vs how I hunt, and work together for all of hunting? 

With PETA and HSUS nipping at our heals, it is sad, for they are sitting back waiting for us to bloody each other and drive more from the sport, and once people get tired, they will ramp up the pressure and shut us down. 

Are crossbows the same as compounds? NO.
Are Compounds the same as Recurve Bows? NO
Do any of them shoot a bullet? NO 

Crossbows are not the biggest threat to our hunting traditions, it is hunters themselves, fighting each other, rather than accepting each other for their desire to be in the woods, doing what each of us love to do. Arrows belong in bow seasons, bullets belong in gun seasons. PERIOD! Let's get over it and move on!

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a troll is someone who pushes peoples buttons for no reasons other than to get a reaction. that's not the case here.

i dont visit sections, i scroll the unread feed. you asked a question and you got answers. why you didn't post a poll i don't know. seems maybe you didn't get the response you wanted though.

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1 hour ago, moog5050 said:

I think archery should be limited to self bows shot off the hand (no cheater shelf) with self made wood arrows and flint heads.  That's the true spirit of archery.   

OK, I really don't care.  I have no problem with crossbows being allowed.  I would object to a weapon requiring powder like a ML but otherwise, I have no objection.  We can all challenge ourselves to whatever degree we choose.

Somehow, we each think that we have control of the definitions. Moog thinks that inclusions into bow season will stop at gun powder, others think that as long as it only involves bent limbs. Others think the arrow/bolt is the defining factor. But the fact is that we really don't have control of what gets included in bow seasons and where it all stops. I happen to think that the style of shooting makes a difference and the physical disciplines and skills that must be mastered are the defining limits. But then I don't have control of what gets shoved into bow seasons either.

The fact is that we already have gun powder propelled projectiles being used during bow season. We are only fooling ourselves when we think we have the power to set arbitrary limits on what legal weapons and propulsion and physical features or skills that will be limited for use in archery season time slots. Our individual definitions carry no weight at all. But I can say this. The more liberal our acceptance of weapons become for inclusion into or concurrent within bow seasons, the easier it is for items that we never imagined to creep into that time slot. We have seen youth rifle seasons arbitrarily slammed into bow season. We have seen muzzleloaders added into the northern zone bow seasons. We have seen muzzleloaders put in concurrent with late bow seasons. The fact is that bow season has become the dumping grounds for any weapon that no one knows what to do with. More and more people are jealously eyeballing the prime times that have worked so hard to carve out for ourselves. And every time we allow another weapon to be crammed into bow season, it get so much easier to find the next generation of ones to include.

Also there is the growing bowhunting success rates that a lot of gun hunters are looking at. The gun hunters are starting to ask why there even needs to be a special bow season. They are questioning why we get the first crack at all the big bucks. It's getting harder and harder to come up with an explanation that satisfies that question. And we have not even begun to see where the technology of crossbows will go. If the growth parallels that of the compound, we are in for some more significant rises in success percentages. 

So yes lets continue the march toward taking challenges out of bowhunting and boosting success rates. We've been doing that for decades now. Perhaps our rush to remove challenges from bowhunting will eventually eliminate our special bow seasons completely. There sure are a lot of people who are looking to accomplish exactly that.

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13 minutes ago, Belo said:

a troll is someone who pushes peoples buttons for no reasons other than to get a reaction. that's not the case here.

i dont visit sections, i scroll the unread feed. you asked a question and you got answers. why you didn't post a poll i don't know. seems maybe you didn't get the response you wanted though.

NO, far from that. I am not interested in a poll, I am interested in trying to get those that want Crossbows Full inclusion to engage, join us and help see this to the end.

I have to laugh, because this whole thing reminds me for the Rolling Stones song Satisfaction. Just change the words a little. 

"He Can't Be a Man because HE does not Shoot the Same Bow as ME

 

Edited by tughillmcd
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13 minutes ago, Doc said:

We have seen youth rifle seasons arbitrarily slammed into bow season.

Gonna Throw the BS Flag on that one. The Youth Season was implemented at the same time the Bow Opener was moved from October 15 to October 1. It was not arbitrarily slammed into bow season. 

I will NEVER throw kids under the bus for my own benefit. If I had to choose, I would say move bow back to the day after Columbus Day before I would ever say KIDS DON'T COME FIRST. They are the future of hunting, which if you haven't noticed, is diminishing in this country. 

 

Edited by tughillmcd
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2 minutes ago, tughillmcd said:

Gonna Throw the BS Flag o that one. The Youth Season was implemented at the same time the Bow Opener was moved from October 15 to October 1. It was not arbitrarily slammed into bow season. 

I will NEVER throw kids under the bus for my own benefit. If I had to choose, I would say move bow back to the day after Columbus Day before I would ever say KIDS DON'T COME FIRST. They are the future of hunting, which if you haven't noticed, is diminishing in this country. 

 

and it had zero impact on anything....I've yet to witness the army of kids invading the woods.

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8 minutes ago, jjb4900 said:

and it had zero impact on anything....I've yet to witness the army of kids invading the woods.

Wish they would.  It would be nice to see that type of participation. 

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22 minutes ago, Doc said:

Somehow, we each think that we have control of the definitions. Moog thinks that inclusions into bow season will stop at gun powder, others think that as long as it only involves bent limbs. Others think the arrow/bolt is the defining factor. But the fact is that we really don't have control of what gets included in bow seasons and where it all stops. I happen to think that the style of shooting makes a difference and the physical disciplines and skills that must be mastered are the defining limits. But then I don't have control of what gets shoved into bow seasons either.

The fact is that we already have gun powder propelled projectiles being used during bow season. We are only fooling ourselves when we think we have the power to set arbitrary limits on what legal weapons and propulsion and physical features or skills that will be limited for use in archery season time slots. Our individual definitions carry no weight at all. But I can say this. The more liberal our acceptance of weapons become for inclusion into or concurrent within bow seasons, the easier it is for items that we never imagined to creep into that time slot. We have seen youth rifle seasons arbitrarily slammed into bow season. We have seen muzzleloaders added into the northern zone bow seasons. We have seen muzzleloaders put in concurrent with late bow seasons. The fact is that bow season has become the dumping grounds for any weapon that no one knows what to do with. More and more people are jealously eyeballing the prime times that have worked so hard to carve out for ourselves. And every time we allow another weapon to be crammed into bow season, it get so much easier to find the next generation of ones to include.

Also there is the growing bowhunting success rates that a lot of gun hunters are looking at. The gun hunters are starting to ask why there even needs to be a special bow season. They are questioning why we get the first crack at all the big bucks. It's getting harder and harder to come up with an explanation that satisfies that question. And we have not even begun to see where the technology of crossbows will go. If the growth parallels that of the compound, we are in for some more significant rises in success percentages. 

So yes lets continue the march toward taking challenges out of bowhunting and boosting success rates. We've been doing that for decades now. Perhaps our rush to remove challenges from bowhunting will eventually eliminate our special bow seasons completely. There sure are a lot of people who are looking to accomplish exactly that.

All you can do is voice your opinion.  We don't make the rules.  But Doc, you mentioned the uproar when compounds came out and how many were opposed to their use.  What was your stance then regarding including compounds?

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3 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

All you can do is voice your opinion.  We don't make the rules.  But Doc, you mentioned the uproar when compounds came out and how many were opposed to their use.  What was your stance then regarding including compounds?

I was on the pro-compound side of the argument. I was laughing at the guys who claimed that the compound would provide the precedent for bigger and better things of the future.

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honestly, if there was going to be a crossbow invasion it would have happened already...anybody that was too "lazy" to get behind a vertical bow, or any gun hunter that wanted in the archery season, would have already done so...........my only issue is those who say crossbow is very close to a vertical bow and is somewhat difficult, been there and done that....not even close.

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30 minutes ago, tughillmcd said:

NO, far from that. I am not interested in a poll, I am interested in trying to get those that want Crossbows Full inclusion to engage, join us and help see this to the end.

I have to laugh, because this whole thing reminds me for the Rolling Stones song Satisfaction. Just change the words a little. 

"He Can't Be a Man because HE does not Shoot the Same Bow as ME

 

I'm not calling out anyones manhood. we're talking about weapons we use in a sport that most of us do for fun, not for necessity. don't take it so serious. 

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For just a moment, forget about all the mechanical differences of a longbow, recurve, compound and crossbow. And please allow me to ask a simple question. To those who appose crossbow, as long as it is not fired with gunpowder, during bow season, how does what another hunter, CHOOSES to use, for THEIR hunting tool, effect YOUR hunt? I've been a BOWHUNTER since the early 80s. And to be honest, with myself and those reading this. What another hunter is using over the hill or in the next woodlot, does not effect MY hunting at all! So how could I possibly be selfish enough to say to another hunter, "you can't use that, because I don't use them, or I don't like them"?  The majority of hunters are gun only hunters. What if they all got together and said "we don't want ANY bow hunting" for the same selfish reasons? Just be happy we have a season at all! There are many out there who would be just fine, to not have ANY hunting at all. United we stand, divided we fall. Just hunt. It really is all good.

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2 minutes ago, Doc said:

Perhaps our rush to remove challenges from bowhunting will eventually eliminate our special bow seasons completely. There sure are a lot of people who are looking to accomplish exactly that.

And as someone that hunts with a vertical bow, supports full inclusion of crossbows, and crossbow owner, I will fight as hard as I can to keep that from happening.

I do have to say though, I have zero issues with the youth deer hunt, just like I have zero issues with the youth turkey hunt.

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7 minutes ago, grampy said:

For just a moment, forget about all the mechanical differences of a longbow, recurve, compound and crossbow. And please allow me to ask a simple question. To those who appose crossbow, as long as it is not fired with gunpowder, during bow season, how does what another hunter, CHOOSES to use, for THEIR hunting tool, effect YOUR hunt? I've been a BOWHUNTER since the early 80s. And to be honest, with myself and those reading this. What another hunter is using over the hill or in the next woodlot, does not effect MY hunting at all! So how could I possibly be selfish enough to say to another hunter, "you can't use that, because I don't use them, or I don't like them"?  The majority of hunters are gun only hunters. What if they all got together and said "we don't want ANY bow hunting" for the same selfish reasons? Just be happy we have a season at all! There are many out there who would be just fine, to not have ANY hunting at all. United we stand, divided we fall. Just hunt. It really is all good.

the bow hunter is lone wolf. he prefers the woods to himself. he needs the deer to be relaxed and easier to draw in close. he doesn't view archery season as the fun camp atmosphere that gun season is. he loves each season for its own uniqueness. 

land access is and will continue to be our biggest problem as hunters. and you can call me every name in the book and believe my stance is just my own and that nobody shares it. but i'm a blunt guy. more hunters is not what the bowhunter wants. our leases disappear, the farms and fields developed into housing tracks, our properties sold or our rights lost or the land we want to buy is out of our price range. all we hope for is less pressure during our season to help us be successful. Adding a much easier, gun like tool to a season just increases the number of hunters. as simple and as selfish as that. If you want to hunt with and around me, put in your time and hunt with the same surgical precision i do so we the deer dont know we're here.

 

flame suit on.

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3 minutes ago, grampy said:

For just a moment, forget about all the mechanical differences of a longbow, recurve, compound and crossbow. And please allow me to ask a simple question. To those who appose crossbow, as long as it is not fired with gunpowder, during bow season, how does what another hunter, CHOOSES to use, for THEIR hunting tool, effect YOUR hunt? I've been a BOWHUNTER since the early 80s. And to be honest, with myself and those reading this. What another hunter is using over the hill or in the next woodlot, does not effect MY hunting at all! So how could I possibly be selfish enough to say to another hunter, "you can't use that, because I don't use them, or I don't like them"?  The majority of hunters are gun only hunters. What if they all got together and said "we don't want ANY bow hunting" for the same selfish reasons? Just be happy we have a season at all! There are many out there who would be just fine, to not have ANY hunting at all. United we stand, divided we fall. Just hunt. It really is all good.

To me it has nothing to do with caring what another hunter uses, it's about preserving the integrity of a sport.....maybe it's more selfish to want to worm into a season that had always been set aside for something else....I don't know, I'm certainly not a selfish person, in fact I'd be more then happy to give the first week of archery totally to the recurve and long bow because I know how difficult that is and that's where the roots of archery hunting began.

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I just don't want people to think I shoot a crossbow when I tell I'm going out for archery. :cheese:

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1 minute ago, grampy said:

For just a moment, forget about all the mechanical differences of a longbow, recurve, compound and crossbow. And please allow me to ask a simple question. To those who appose crossbow, as long as it is not fired with gunpowder, during bow season, how does what another hunter, CHOOSES to use, for THEIR hunting tool, effect YOUR hunt? I've been a BOWHUNTER since the early 80s. And to be honest, with myself and those reading this. What another hunter is using over the hill or in the next woodlot, does not effect MY hunting at all! So how could I possibly be selfish enough to say to another hunter, "you can't use that, because I don't use them, or I don't like them"?  The majority of hunters are gun only hunters. What if they all got together and said "we don't want ANY bow hunting" for the same selfish reasons? Just be happy we have a season at all! There are many out there who would be just fine, to not have ANY hunting at all. United we stand, divided we fall. Just hunt. It really is all good.

I have traveled almost the entire gambit of the bowhunting development in NYS. I have seen it all. I watched the struggles from the time bowhunting was a novelty and kind of a joke in the hunting community all the way to today where gun hunters are sincere in their opposition to bowhunting because of our growing success. And as a matter of fact I am very happy that we do have a season because I have been with the struggle almost since inception. Now for the first time, I am feeling a threat to that season. It all started with the compound and we are now outsmarting ourselves. I am convinced that I do not want to ever have to bowhunt concurrently with gun hunters. But as the nature and success of bowseason continues to improve, I am feeling a bit uneasy about that happening. That ois how I or those trying to enjoy what I have enjoyed all my life can be affected.

No, at my age, I likely will be long gone before that ever happens, but I do get concerned over the future of a sport that has been so central to most of my life.

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13 minutes ago, jjb4900 said:

To me it has nothing to do with caring what another hunter uses, it's about preserving the integrity of a sport.....maybe it's more selfish to want to worm into a season that had always been set aside for something else....I don't know, I'm certainly not a selfish person, in fact I'd be more then happy to give the first week of archery totally to the recurve and long bow because I know how difficult that is and that's where the roots of archery hunting began.

Wait, you would be happy to "give" the first week of a 7 week season to the recurve and long bow guys? Well, how generous of you! I mean, they only started archery season to begin with. A week to themselves sounds just fine!

How about this? Oct 1 - Nov 4 its all archery tackle. Compounds, recurves, crossbows, longbows. Then from Nov 4 - gun opener, its primitive bows only. Longbows and recurves. Sound good?

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4 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Wait, you would be happy to "give" the first week of a 7 week season to the recurve and long bow guys? Well, how generous of you! I mean, they only started archery season to begin with. A week to themselves sounds just fine!

How about this? Oct 1 - Nov 4 its all archery tackle. Compounds, recurves, crossbows, longbows. Then from Nov 4 - gun opener, its primitive bows only. Logbows and recurves. Sound good?

yes, they did start it, pretty sure that's what I said...letting them have the first week alone and then letting the other archers get into it a week later......not saying just give them one week, give them one week alone and obviously let them keep hunting the entire season. I've never had a problem with more difficult ways of killing deer getting an earlier start.

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