New York Hillbilly

Relying on tracker/dogs is out of control!

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Argue if you want, or put your head in the sand over this issue, but this is NUTS! Too ignore it is even nuttier! Since someone tagged me into the site NY Hunt Club, it is a nonstop daily occurrence, multiple (very many) people talking about wounding "Big", "biggest", "buck of a lifetime, "slobs",  that they admit to being shit shots, hurried shots, front on shots, deflection, etc., and now "need to number" for "the nearest tracker dog". Today there is even one asking pre-emptively; "I don't need now, but for when I do", "how much", actually planning for shit to go wrong. As I sit here trying to get over the "flu", I actually got from the flu shot I took before I came back to protect my 10 month old grandson, I'm left to do nothing but heal up for next weekend opener, missing out on the bow season I desperately wanted to enjoy after all my work, planning, and travel. To pass the time, I'm left reading this site and others, hoping to cheer others, and living vicariously for the time being through them as I hack up my lungs. But, now making matters worse, and my mood, are the dozen upon dozen of people admitting to what amounts to winging arrows at deer with bows and crossbows, at weird angles, out to 70 and 80 yards, moving deer, as if if they are simply lucky enough to get an arrow into the animal they can call for dog backup. If you think I'm exaggerating, take a peek at that site. Granted, there are some impressive deer being taken also by proper shot placement and recovery, but the number in the other camp is frighteningly staggering to me. Hate to rain on anyones parade here, but it IS a problem, and others are also beginning to raise noise about it. 

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I agree.  But I would use that service if needed. But I'm also not going to take a marginal shot just because I can call someone with a dog.  

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I would no doubt tear into someone if they openly admitted to winging an arrow at a deer at 70-80 yards. I agree with the elevated number of posts about bad shots .

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We got a call the other day saying, "I'm so and so and I've used you guys four or five times, and hit another one! Can you come find him?"......click.

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As with any other service that is meant to be a temporary help it’s being abused. I can vividly remember the 3 bucks that easily all were 130+ inch deer that I let go because of very poor shot opertunitys.

Nobody is perfect and bad shots  will happen , but to purposely take a marginal shot is just unethical.

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7 minutes ago, rob-c said:

As with any other service that is meant to be a temporary help it’s being abused. I can vividly remember the 3 bucks that easily all were 130+ inch deer that I let go because of very poor shot opertunitys.

Nobody is perfect and bad shots  will happen , but to purposely take a marginal shot is just unethical.

I agree totally that nobody is perfect, and sadly know the feeling of losing a deer. But, it is the knowing of such a sinking, sickening feeling  that I believe kept people from pushing the envelope in the past, at least for some of us, and I think,as a result we may have actually passed on if there is such a word, "shootable" deer, rather than run the risk of going through such an ordeal. And make no mistake that word got out quickly in an area if your were "that person", who made a habit of wounding and losing a deer. There does not seem to be the same stigma anymore. Anyone who shoots moving animals, takes marginal shots on purpose, is just winging shots. 

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I passed on the biggest buck i got to draw on the other afternoon. He was standing at 30 yds,but a tree covered his front legs and I couldn't judge how far back I would hit if i just squeaked the arrow past the tree. He was a good sized 8 I think,and I couldn't move since the doe he was following was looking at me.

I feel comfortable to 30 yds and a little more,but wasnt feeling it for that shot. 

There isn't much worse than wounding a deer because of poor shot selection. Mistakes happen of course. I would rather come up empty than wounding a deer.

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11 minutes ago, BowmanMike said:

There isn't much worse than wounding a deer because of poor shot selection. Mistakes happen of course. I would rather come up empty than wounding a deer.

As would I. Good call! Perhaps some of your good sense can rub off on a few more people! BY the way, I love Cooperstown! Worked there for a couple of years.         :  )

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I agree with much of what you are saying.  I do believe this allows people to take risky shots, ultimately non-lethal shots.  And yes, I've wounded/lost 2 deer in 10 years and it's the worst feeling in the world. 

I should've taught my beagle mix to track when he was younger.  I am colorblind, more specifically moderately red-green colorblind with difficulty differentiating blues, purples, pinks, browns.  I cannot see blood as I don't know what red looks like.  So people like me need help, but I call friends to track for me, not dog service. Thanks for sharing

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I blame most of it on TV, and the internet. I used to argue with people who tried convincing me it's OK to take bow shots at deer quartering-to or front on, or who bow hunt in the rain (not mist or drizzle). I gave up, I don't know where they are getting their information, but it's NOT OK to take anything but VERY high success shots, or bow hunt when it's raining or even heavy rain forecasted.

Edited by Uncle Nicky
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Simply put most hunters do not shoot enough.  I am at the archery range most weeks and when the season starts it is like a ghost town.  The other reality is that we get excited and a poor shot can happen to anyone even the few who practice often.  When doing shot placement I always try to tell the shooters how important it is to stop the deer when shooting.  Walking shots on a moving animal is a poor choice with a bow and now with crossbows people are extending the distance they think they can shoot just because they did it in practice.  

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1 hour ago, New York Hillbilly said:

I agree totally that nobody is perfect, and sadly know the feeling of losing a deer. But, it is the knowing of such a sinking, sickening feeling  that I believe kept people from pushing the envelope in the past, at least for some of us, and I think,as a result we may have actually passed on if there is such a word, "shootable" deer, rather than run the risk of going through such an ordeal. And make no mistake that word got out quickly in an area if your were "that person", who made a habit of wounding and losing a deer. There does not seem to be the same stigma anymore. Anyone who shoots moving animals, takes marginal shots on purpose, is just winging shots. 

When i have been engaged  talking about topics like maximum hunting distance and ethical range, I have actually had bow hunters tell me that their range is "x" (25,30,40,45 whatever). And wouldn't dream of pushing it beyond that.... (wait for it, wait for it)..."unless it was a really really big buck".

 

I about lose my mind at that point. 

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7 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

When i have been engaged  talking about topics like maximum hunting distance and ethical range, I have actually had bow hunters tell me that their range is "x" (25,30,40,45 whatever). And wouldn't dream of pushing it beyond that.... (wait for it, wait for it)..."unless it was a really really big buck".

 

I about lose my mind at that point. 

That is complete nonsense,just because it is a buck doesn't change the criteria for shot selection. There are a lot of bozos out there. 

I just took the bottom section of a ladder stand that is on the property i have sole hunting rights to. That one was well over the line and the line is marked fairly well. A lot of people have questionable ethics,to say the least.

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I know a father and son that hunt. They wound several deer every bow season. 

There motto... Ya ain't gonna get em if ya don't stick em.  

Makes me sick. Tried talking sense to them, but they would seriously rather hit and wound a big buck and loose it then have someone else take it. 

I cringe each time I see them out and about as I know they will "brag" about how many they hit.  

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24 minutes ago, mowin said:

I know a father and son that hunt. They wound several deer every bow season. 

There motto... Ya ain't gonna get em if ya don't stick em.  

Makes me sick. Tried talking sense to them, but they would seriously rather hit and wound a big buck and loose it then have someone else take it. 

I cringe each time I see them out and about as I know they will "brag" about how many they hit. 

After oh so  many deer seasons, I still get pumped when I have any deer around me, let alone a big buck. I suspect the sight of a large racked buck makes most hunters pulses get going, which also has had me wondering.  If the craze and/or trend, however you want to frame it, is about passing smaller bucks to grow big ones, and knowing the reaction such encounters bring, will the increase chances of running into bigger bucks lead to more incidents of poor choices, and high risk shots to be that person who got the big one, and subsequently continued increase in lost animals?  Rather than making such behaviors acceptable as just part of the hunting experience, I think we will need exert a little peer pressure once in a while, to make a stand that it is not. Again, bad stuff happens under the best of circumstances, and ultimately only the shooter in  most cases knows what really went down, but we should not normalize wounding animals. Although I would like to take a big buck as much as the next hunter, the goal I thought ultimately was to feed our stomachs, not our ego!

Edited by New York Hillbilly
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I passed twice this year on the same buck because of the shots. The first time he was 37 yards quartering away but there was a chance I would have hit a branch. The other time again quartering away but at 30 yards and there was some weeds in front of his body, so again I didn't do it. More people need to make them smart decisions.

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A lot of this post is accurate but I wonder how many shots end up being off target at close range too.  It takes smart and ethical shot decisions.  It also takes a lot of practice, many of us need to continue to shoot throughout the season including me.  It takes good working equipment. I recently yelled at my Uncle to put new broadheads on, not the ones he has shot dozens of times at a target.  Also, buck fever is a real thing, it takes time for some hunters to control their emotions.  It would be interesting to hear from a dog tracker, I'm sure they see some interesting things.

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i've pin wheeled unknown yardage 3D targets out past 80 yards way more than a just few times. the more i bowhunt the more i want a warm and fuzzy 20 yard shot at most.  crazy things happen when shooting at deer. just because you can hit it doesn't mean you've got the down range energy either.  some good bowhunters i know of cut their comfortable practice ranges in half. maybe i'm just an overly cautious individual with a mental "safe space". who knows.

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DB , thank you . My first bow kill in '89 was my first year bow hunting was at 8 yards , all  since have been under 20 but one , that one was  25 and she piled up,in sight .

Ive lost two  in all those years and one of those I found a year later .....

They  were front quartering , but not hard , still one lunged and pushed to soon , I learned and haven't taken a front quartering shot in many years . 

I always say the " hunting " is done with the hanging of the stands , the rest is waiting for them to walk by at 15 yards .

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42 minutes ago, Taylormike said:

It would be interesting to hear from a dog tracker, I'm sure they see some interesting things.

I have been, and his comment/opinion after tracking all the deer this year, is that many of these "hunters" have no business even being out there. I'll take it from the guy closest to the action, and wearing actual blisters on his feet chasing gut shot deer, deer shot in the rear ends, through the back, and with legs blown off and  chunks of bone on the ground, and on and on.  Not my opinion, it's all over the hunting sites. 

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Tracking dogs have little or nothing to do with lousy hunters and poor shooting, they have always been in the woods. I would bet most of the guys that do this stuff will take the same poor shot time and time again with tracking dogs available or not. Probably are hearing about more incidents because they are dumb enough to admit to what they are doing on a public forum asking for tracking dog owners help.

Al

Edited by airedale
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Serious Dogs For Serious Work

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6 minutes ago, New York Hillbilly said:

I have been, and his comment/opinion after tracking all the deer this year, is that many of these "hunters" have no business even being out there. I'll take it from the guy closest to the action, and wearing actual blisters on his feet chasing gut shot deer, deer shot in the rear ends, through the back, and with legs blown off and  chunks of bone on the ground, and on and on.  Not my opinion, it's all over the hunting sites. 

Yea. I believe it. 

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This exact subject has been coming up at my work. I am from the old school where you practice with your weapons until the shots are almost automatic. But, and it is a huge but, even that doesn't stop people from getting too excited and shooting too soon, or when there never was a good shot to start with.

Like Rob-c, I have fond memories of a few bucks over the years that were well within range, but never presented a shot. Sure, it was disappointing, but it wasn't the end of the world either. One of my greatest hunting memories is of a giant 8 pointer that I had been after off and on for a couple years without ever getting a shot. 

One frosty morning he chased a doe by me 3 times in 15 minutes, all within 25 yards. I tried grunting the first two times, and said "Hey!!" the third time. He never slowed down, and I was about jello when it was over. That is one buck that will always sting a little. Now, I am a damn good shot with bow, and this was one huge buck. Never even dreamed of shooting even though the second and third time he came through, I was already at full draw. 

Hunters need to pay attention to their surroundings. Look for shooting lanes and no shoot areas. Plan ahead, and it is not a crime to not shoot an arrow or pull the trigger. 

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 I have noticed that rather than spend the time actually looking for the deer themselves young hunters are just calling the dog guy. As for the poor shot choices... many of the younger guys are getting into that " I need to kill a buck at all costs" mentality. I can hear it in there voices when I talk to them and in the thousands of comments I read on social media. I don't get too upset because I'm sure I was that guy when I was in my 20's. Unfortunately for them there are not enough volunteers with dogs to keep up with the demand. Bill Yox ( a Deer Search volunteer) wrote a nice post on on of the social media pages telling all about how they can't keep up with the calls they have gotten this year. Losing a nice buck to a poor shot choice sometimes is the best way to bring a hunter to his senses.

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Joe Servello
New York Antler Outdoors
http://www.nyantler-outdoors.com

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6 minutes ago, airedale said:

Tracking dogs have little or nothing to do with lousy hunters and poor shooting, they have always been in the woods. I would bet most of the guys that do this stuff will take the same poor shot time and time again with tracking dogs available or not.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I forget if this is my 44th or 45th year of deer hunting, but can tell you I have never seen anything like how this has taken off with tracking dogs. Don't get me wrong, I think they are an excellent resource to have, but I think they have become the excuse in many peoples minds why they can take iffy shots. I won't be convinced otherwise. I just see too much of this going on. 

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