Doe, can anyone age her?

[NYBowhunter]

Shot a big doe yesterday. Can anyone put an age on her based on these teeth pics? She had no upper front teeth.

[NYBowhunter]

[NYBowhunter]

[NYBowhunter]

[NYBowhunter]

[First-light]

My brother shot a doe on long island a few years ago. Didn't have any front teeth they age her at 9 years.

[NYBowhunter]

1 minute ago, First-light said:

My brother shot a doe on long island a few years ago. Didn't have any front teeth they age her at 9 years.

Wow, yeah i wasnt sure how much those missing teeth may have on determining her age. Shes a huge doe, but on top of that i found it odd that her front teeth were missing. Was just hoping those with alot of aging experience can use these pics and give me an estimate. 

[Lawdwaz]

Lower jaw is the one to be looking at AND save.  Clean it up/boil it and then stop at the DEC and see what they say.

Congrats on a real trophy IMO.......

[Lawdwaz]

That picture of the lower jaw isn't so good, take some more and post 'em up.

[jjb4900]

I don't think deer have upper front teeth...could be wrong, but I don't believe they do.

[wooly]

4 minutes ago, jjb4900 said:

I don't think deer have upper front teeth...could be wrong, but I don't believe they do.

Sometimes they do.

[NYBowhunter]

8 minutes ago, jjb4900 said:

I don't think deer have upper front teeth...could be wrong, but I don't believe they do.

If thats the case, that tells you how much i paid attention to their teeth...lol

[NYBowhunter]

11 minutes ago, Lawdwaz said:

That picture of the lower jaw isn't so good, take some more and post 'em up.

Have to see what my dad did with them.

[G-Man]

Cervids  in general do not have front teeth. Though sometimes they will have canines..in elk they are valuable( sold as elk ivory) 

Not great pics but not more than 3.5 may only be 2.5

[grampy]

My buddy shot a doe a few years ago, and her molars were worn down to the gum line. DEC aged her at 8 years old. The doe picture here, my guess is 3 years old. And deer don't  normally have front teeth.

[nyantler]

Need to see 4th, 5th and 6th molar on lower jaw to examine the dentine vs enamel. This deer looks to be 3.5

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by nyantler

[NYBowhunter]

13 hours ago, nyantler said:

Need to see 4th, 5th and 6th molar on lower jaw to examine the dentine vs enamel. This deer looks to be 3.5

 

Unfortunately cant get anymore pics., my dad tossed the bones. 

[dbHunterNY]

@NYBowhunter I missed this on here through the computer but it showed up thru my tapatalk app on my phone. Lawd and others have the idea that said I don't have confidence in every DEC biologist to age jawbones. some are very good.

you won't find any whitetail with upper incisors.  canines like what Wooly posted aren't common but present in enough deer they're out there. nothing to do with aging though, as well as the upper jaw.  aging is based on tooth replacement and wear is done solely with the bottom jawbone.  with the useful pictures posted, angles, and fact there's fluid and dark stuff built up on the last molar it's hard to really get the best view of it. Here's what I get from it:
- First it has all six teeth in the back on a side. Meaning it's an adult doe at least 1.5 years old. (Each tooth has multiple sections or cusps making it look like there's more than six.)

- 3rd premolar (3rd tooth back) has 2 cusps not 3. also the stained look of the 1st and 2nd seem to be it's replaced adult teeth and they haven't been just replaced. Meaning, it's at least 2.5 yrs old.

- First and second molars (4th and 5th tooth back) all have dentine width wider than the enamel. Meaning it's at least 4.5 yrs old.

- I notice an amount of bluntness of these teeth. also lack of wear on the first tooth. Also the last cusp on the last molar is worn a certain amount and sloping toward the cheek. Meaning it's still at least 4.5 years old.

- I can't get the best look at the last tooth back to say if it's 5.5 yrs old or not. from what I can see i'm leaning hard toward no but not 100%

- The 4th tooth back (1st molar and oldest tooth in any deer) isn't worn flat so much that the infundibulum (interstitial space between the cusps of the tooth) is gone. so I can't put it at older than 5.5 yrs old.

....so my thoughts are this deer is likely to be 4.5 yrs old and a slight possibility it's 5.5 yrs old. Sorry to hear your dad tossed them.

[dbHunterNY]

I think I'll resurrect the jawbone aging thread.  I've got a few years (few hundred+) worth of jawbones to post up.

[nyantler]

41 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

@NYBowhunter I missed this on here through the computer but it showed up thru my tapatalk app on my phone. Lawd and others have the idea that said I don't have confidence in every DEC biologist to age jawbones. some are very good.

you won't find any whitetail with upper incisors.  canines like what Wooly posted aren't common but present in enough deer they're out there. nothing to do with aging though, as well as the upper jaw.  aging is based on tooth replacement and wear is done solely with the bottom jawbone.  with the useful pictures posted, angles, and fact there's fluid and dark stuff built up on the last molar it's hard to really get the best view of it. Here's what I get from it:
- First it has all six teeth in the back on a side. Meaning it's an adult doe at least 1.5 years old. (Each tooth has multiple sections or cusps making it look like there's more than six.)

- 3rd premolar (3rd tooth back) has 2 cusps not 3. also the stained look of the 1st and 2nd seem to be it's replaced adult teeth and they haven't been just replaced. Meaning, it's at least 2.5 yrs old.

- First and second molars (4th and 5th tooth back) all have dentine width wider than the enamel. Meaning it's at least 4.5 yrs old.

- I notice an amount of bluntness of these teeth. also lack of wear on the first tooth. Also the last cusp on the last molar is worn a certain amount and sloping toward the cheek. Meaning it's still at least 4.5 years old.

- I can't get the best look at the last tooth back to say if it's 5.5 yrs old or not. from what I can see i'm leaning hard toward no but not 100%

- The 4th tooth back (1st molar and oldest tooth in any deer) isn't worn flat so much that the infundibulum (interstitial space between the cusps of the tooth) is gone. so I can't put it at older than 5.5 yrs old.

....so my thoughts are this deer is likely to be 4.5 yrs old and a slight possibility it's 5.5 yrs old. Sorry to hear your dad tossed them.

After looking again at the 2nd molar I think you're right...  at least 4.5... I'm not as good as I think I am sometimes.

[Lawdwaz]

Terrific news!!

She’s a beauty!!

[dbHunterNY]

After looking again at the 2nd molar I think you're right...  at least 4.5... I'm not as good as I think I am sometimes.

I have the luxury of sending in sending in teeth for confirmation and seeing at least 125 jawbones every year. Still i admit it can be subjective. That said you can get damn close. When someone is off it's usually because they aren't taking things step by step and then looking at more than just one characteristic and not the overall picture to see if all the characteristics you're seeing agree with one another.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[NYBowhunter]

On 12/22/2017 at 3:18 PM, dbHunterNY said:

@NYBowhunter I missed this on here through the computer but it showed up thru my tapatalk app on my phone. Lawd and others have the idea that said I don't have confidence in every DEC biologist to age jawbones. some are very good.

you won't find any whitetail with upper incisors.  canines like what Wooly posted aren't common but present in enough deer they're out there. nothing to do with aging though, as well as the upper jaw.  aging is based on tooth replacement and wear is done solely with the bottom jawbone.  with the useful pictures posted, angles, and fact there's fluid and dark stuff built up on the last molar it's hard to really get the best view of it. Here's what I get from it:
- First it has all six teeth in the back on a side. Meaning it's an adult doe at least 1.5 years old. (Each tooth has multiple sections or cusps making it look like there's more than six.)

- 3rd premolar (3rd tooth back) has 2 cusps not 3. also the stained look of the 1st and 2nd seem to be it's replaced adult teeth and they haven't been just replaced. Meaning, it's at least 2.5 yrs old.

- First and second molars (4th and 5th tooth back) all have dentine width wider than the enamel. Meaning it's at least 4.5 yrs old.

- I notice an amount of bluntness of these teeth. also lack of wear on the first tooth. Also the last cusp on the last molar is worn a certain amount and sloping toward the cheek. Meaning it's still at least 4.5 years old.

- I can't get the best look at the last tooth back to say if it's 5.5 yrs old or not. from what I can see i'm leaning hard toward no but not 100%

- The 4th tooth back (1st molar and oldest tooth in any deer) isn't worn flat so much that the infundibulum (interstitial space between the cusps of the tooth) is gone. so I can't put it at older than 5.5 yrs old.

....so my thoughts are this deer is likely to be 4.5 yrs old and a slight possibility it's 5.5 yrs old. Sorry to hear your dad tossed them.

Thats some great information and i really appreciate you taking the time to age her. Based upon her huge size, i knew i was looking at a doe that was atleast 3.5 or better ,but couldn't say for sure. Its good to know shes a somewhat ole girl and smart to have eluded me and my neighbor all those years..lol..i went digging thru the bone pile and couldnt find her lower jaw, thinking my dad may have tossed her in a garbage bag. Next time i get a big ole girl like that i will be sure to keep the lower jaw and clean it up. Thx.

[Lawdwaz]

3 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

I have the luxury of sending in sending in teeth for confirmation and seeing at least 125 jawbones every year.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

What is your affiliation that you see 125+ jaw bones a year?

[dbHunterNY]

On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 7:33 PM, Lawdwaz said:

What is your affiliation that you see 125+ jaw bones a year?

I'm one of a few that manage/coordinate efforts for a QDM Co-op in eastern NY that's made up of over 90 landowners.  We've dropped a couple landowners and added more. right now we're probably just over 11,600 contiguous acres.  Every deer shot on the co-op has to be checked in at a self check station.  one of few things that's done there is the lower jawbone is removed, a numbered stainless steel tag is zip tied to it, and it's placed in a wire cage to dry.  all the jawbones are later aged by me and some others who have a good handle on it. one being a whitetail biologist for the QDMA, who happens to live out this way.  We also have a DEC wildlife tech or at times the head big game biologist look at them when doing their rounds to collect data.  of those, ones of interest we usually send out the teeth to Matson's lab.  I'm the Vice President of the local QDMA branch too, so I've had access to other jawbones from other QDM co-ops or groups in our four county area.  they provide us with doe age structure and other info that help us with the herd management portion of our QDM goals as a group.