Challenge

[Doc]

We all will quickly say that a buck is more challenging than a doe. But are bucks really smarter? Are we measuring ourselves against an animal that is tough to get only because there are statistically fewer opportunities? Are the bucks really a more challenging prey because of their super stealth and intelligence? I have to wonder which gender would be tougher to get if their numbers were exactly the same.

When I think about it, it is the bucks that are led around the woods by their sexual needs. They are the ones who advertise their presence by displaying sign-post (rubs and scrapes) everywhere they go. They are the ones who purposely isolate themselves at certain times of the year so they can pursue their breeding needs. Meanwhile the does seem to always have a few sets of eyes and ears available to detect danger. That really seems like the smarter way to help survival.

I have to wonder just which gender is more adept at survival. It seems to me that the assumption that bucks are the greater challenge for us is only based on the fact that they have done a worse job in the world of survival and have become a bit of a rarity even though the birth rates are similar. 

What do you think?

[First-light]

 You pose a number of questions in the above paragraphs that could  get mushed up together so I will take one. 

Where I hunt 8P there is a good population of deer. I can go out and hunt and see 15-20 deer. Sometimes half of those deer are bucks. This mainly happens early bow then dwindles down as the rut approaches. Why because the bucks scatter over a large area looking for receptive does. So with that in mind I think they would be equally challenging to hunt if numbers are the same.  You can go on and on with many variables to this question.

Excellent question now one for you....what are you doing up so early? I have an excuse I'm headed to camp have 6 hrs of driving ahead of me! lol

[turkeyfeathers]

Good question. Yes , bucks giving scrapes and rubs as indications their around gives us an advantage. So does when they get stupid chasing does. But a mature doe got mature by not being dumb.  But even that old buck somehow was smart enough to become old    I give the nod to the mature buck to being the wiser.  

[Hugaman]

Too many questions in one... Will try to pick one and answer  later

[nyantler]

The fact that the buck leaves so much sign and advertises himself more... should make one wonder how he can be so hard to find. That alone I believe tells which is the more challenging of the two. If you have ever tracked deer you know that bucks, especially big bucks, travel differently and more evasively than does... staying in cover wherever possible. If not for the breeding season most hunters might never see a buck. Especially those that sit in a stand year in and year out.

 

[mowin]

I've come across many a old doe that was just as if not harder to hunt (bow) then most bucks. They've spoiled many a hunt, and proved to be extremely difficult to kill. 

[landtracdeerhunter]

With no habitat and the ability to adapt, neither sex would survive.

[GreeneHunter]

I've had a trail cam setup in my backyard for a few years near a couple of old apple trees and I've hardly ever had bucks on the pics during the day time ! Plenty of Doe's during the day time . IMO Bucks are somehow a little more clued in . 

[Buckmaster7600]

I don’t think either one is smart, they both have an amazing survival instinct.

I have tracked mature bucks for hundreds if not thousands of miles and it still to this day blows my mind how elusive a mature buck can be. I don’t have a clue what sex is smarter but I can say does are a lot easier to kill even in areas I have hunted with a very even buck to doe rations. Does that make does dumber? Who knows!




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[Steve D]

6 hours ago, Doc said:

It seems to me that the assumption that bucks are the greater challenge for us is only based on the fact that they have done a worse job in the world of survival

It doesn't matter what the species is......a horny male is more apt to trip up and make a mistake than a female. Plus the fact there are more does than bucks.

[NFA-ADK]

Some people are smart and some not so much.  I look at deer the same way, not all are created equal but after 3 seasons they both seem to have a good handle on the woods and become harder to hunt.  Dispersal causes some issues with survival but after the 2nd year in a new home range bucks are amazing at staying hidden, doe not as much.  Watch a field at sunset and I typically see the doe enter first followed after dark by the larger bucks.  Bucks seem to know the danger and allow the doe to "test the water first".    

Mature bucks are loners more than doe and doe always seem more abundant due to herding.  Those facts make doe easier to get simply because there are more together and they tend to travel during the day time in more exposed areas.  

Bucks because they are solo need to pay attention more because no other deer is present to let them know danger is coming.  Hence why they tend to bed up high with a steep cliff to there back and the wind coming up from below.  Doe can have large groups and anyone in the group can scatter the bunch.  Doe also tend to the fawns and with that obligation have to always look after the kids and tend to sometimes overlook danger, like me smoking and stinking up the woods.  Doe often will ignore this warning sign, bucks not so much. 

I think doe in groups have a better time detecting danger simply because more are present.  Bucks will slip up during the rut but that 3-5 day window only happens a few times a year hence I feel they are harder to hunt.  The other issue is usually they are surrounded by other deer when they find a hot doe this gives them the edge on danger, not so much when they are checking doe groups as they put on the miles in area they are not as familiar and are usually solo. 

Is one smarter then the other I would say no but testosterone tends to change males and make them different in many ways.  I would also say if you hunt from the ground doe with the larger groups have a clear advantage over any single buck.  I think this is why so many bucks are taken at a younger age, they have dispersal, the chase during rut, and scent checking doe beds.  All this travel puts them in harms way and if the doe is in heat usually the buck only cares about her scent and has his nose to the ground until she is found and could care less about anything else including hunters.  Young bucks can't stop going after doe that smell good, older bucks know the difference between a good smell and a doe that is ready for breading.  This is why older bucks only show up a few times a year, and to me seem harder to hunt. 

31 years of hunting I have had numerous encounters with doe.  Young bucks I have also had many encounters.  Older bucks in the 3.5 or better I would say maybe 20 ish encounters over the same period.   

 

[G-Man]

The toughest/smartest deer I've encountered and I didnt kill it was a doe. 8 year old. She avoided any stand looked up more than any deer I've ever seen and used her nose at an unparalleled level. No deer would enter a field till she declared it safe. 3 years she was the target I couldn't get got to where I just hunted different area.  Neighbor killed her on long rifle shot. She dressed out at 188lbs on the scale. 

Bucks would probably be harder to kill if season was closed during the rut. Imo but my experience the head doe in an area is hardest to fool.

[Just Lucky]

We all know males are the smarter species.

[moog5050]

15 minutes ago, Just Lucky said:

We all know males are the smarter species.

Not agreeing but I think you mean gender.  lol

[nyantler]

10 hours ago, Doc said:

I have to wonder just which gender is more adept at survival. It seems to me that the assumption that bucks are the greater challenge for us is only based on the fact that they have done a worse job in the world of survival and have become a bit of a rarity even though the birth rates are similar. 

What do you think?

I don't think bucks have done a worse job of surviving as much as for years they were the only sex that was hunted to a great extent... it is only in recent years that the idea of killing does on a large scale became popular and allowed by NYS. 

[dbHunterNY]

i don't think bucks are more smart than doe. buck tag harder of the two to fill around here regardless of standards. my standards are shooting an adult doe or a middle aged buck and there's more 3.5+ yr old doe than buck.  bucks receive more hunting pressure than doe. how many times have you passed a doe versus a buck? even a young buck isn't much less smart compared to an older buck. most likely the older buck has personal behavior that prefers day to day activity to coincidentally avoid danger and in some cases it knows what danger could be.  how often has a young buck picked out your ground blind or you up in a tree but then seemed not to care?  they were still smart and at least astute enough to know something is out of place.  this last characteristic i've known old matriarch doe to use against a lot of hunters, myself included.  plus you've tipped your cards over and over to her in the past.  how often do you watch the same doe family group?  old doe can be the hardest to kill if they decide you're after them.

[Doc]

12 hours ago, First-light said:

 .....Excellent question now one for you....what are you doing up so early? I have an excuse I'm headed to camp have 6 hrs of driving ahead of me! lol

Ha-ha-ha.....yes frequently I will wake up completely at all hours of the night or early morning, and it helps to get on the computer for a while.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Doc

[Hunter007]

It is hard to know for sure because in any given area there are just many more does then bucks per square mile so chances are you will run into a doe many more times in the woods then a buck .

[wolc123]

7 hours ago, G-Man said:

The toughest/smartest deer I've encountered and I didnt kill it was a doe. 8 year old. She avoided any stand looked up more than any deer I've ever seen and used her nose at an unparalleled level. No deer would enter a field till she declared it safe. 3 years she was the target I couldn't get got to where I just hunted different area.  Neighbor killed her on long rifle shot. She dressed out at 188lbs on the scale. 

Bucks would probably be harder to kill if season was closed during the rut. Imo but my experience the head doe in an area is hardest to fool.

I have seen similar stuff in my home zone (9F).  Killing mature does during hunting season is especially tough here because they get hammered pretty good earlier, by farmers with crop damage permits. Those are only good for antlerless deer.  By October 1, the ratio of antlered to antlerless (which includes button bucks) is usually around 1:1.   The does are very skittish, because they start getting hammered around June 1st.   The easiest deer to kill here during hunting season, by far, are 1-1/2 year old bucks.   Judging by my own kill numbers in this zone over 36 years, I would say that harvesting  2-1/2 year or older bucks or does is about equal in difficulty.    The year that I switched from a smooth bore to a rifled shotgun, doubling my effective range, was the only year that I was able to take more than one mature doe from our farm.   The old girls wised up quick to that though, and I have not done it since.   

It is a lot different up in the northern zone however.   Up there I see about 6 antlerless deer for every one with antlers, which makes it much easier to kill does.   My trouble up there is that there are no DMP tags, so I can only take a doe during the ML week (or the 3 days prior with a crossbow).           

Edited April 27, 2018 by wolc123