blackbeltbill

Is It Possible That Spring Hunters Are Missing More Turkeys At Under 35 Yards With The Combination Of A Triple Extra Full Choke Tube And New TSS And Longbeard ER Turkey Ammo??

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As Spring Turkey Hunters Look to take longer and longer shots on Hung-up Gobblers and Toms moving Left to Right or vice-versa at 60-65-70+ yards-- what happens when they use these super constrictive Choke Tubes and Newest TSS and Winchester Longbeard Ammo on Gobblers appearing out of nowhere and standing stock still at under 35 Yards in front of the Blind. Would this be like shooting a Slug at that Gobbler as the Pattern is not yet open enough. Perhaps passing 1" to the side of his head with the Tom now spooked from the Boom sound and feeling "something" whiz by his head. Or has this already happened to Spring Hunters this Spring Nationwide and has them Scratching their heads in disbelief?  Perhaps the old original extra full choke tube that came with the gun and does not extend beyond the end of the barrel and using ammo like  Winchester and Remington put out 10 years ago might work much better on Toms at under 35 Yards.  Your Thoughts on this..

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No arguments from me.  Too tight is NFG...

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I agree with the theory but think you’re off by a little. At 35 yds even the tightest chokes are shooting cantaloupe patterns and even these patterns have fliers so the odds are very high that it’s not a miss. I hate hearing that someone misses a turkey, because the odds are very high that it wasn’t a miss, I have found more dead turkeys in he woods in the spring and all of them have been toms hard to find a cause of death when they’re usually eaten to some extent or another.

I won’t shoot the longbeards because they’re designed to stay “glued” together in a resin and this causes way too tight of a pattern for me.

The TSS is a different animal, I bought a bunch because I was curious and I knew it would never be cheaper. That stuff is amazing, but what’s most amazing is how it seems to spread out fast and make a nice even pattern at 20yds but stay as tight as it does at 50yds.

For me I have found that the perfect blend of new and old is a very tight high quality choke with old faithful Remington Nitros in number 6. This year I have been doing a little calling and changed my setup for it. The setup in my new 20ga has been perfect and has resulted in 2 bang flops for me this year with my 2 Vermont birds.


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Haven't upgraded a thing since I bought  my Turkey guns  back in the 80s. Pattern  density   at a given range. I guess I should investigate new chokes and ammo.  But I still have 3 boxes of Winchester buffered # 4 copper plate 3 1/2  10 gauge  to go through. Have turkeys developed armor  plating ?

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The good thing about technology with chokes and loads. Is you can pattern  and make your gun do what you want it to just about. especially with tungsten shot. You dont have to worry about energy loss in case your guestimate on range is off, but you still do have to know where your pattern falls off. If you want the best even and hot core patterns, i do believe  one should pay a little extra for a high quality choke. But at the end of the day, every gun shoots differently. IF you keep your shots to 40ish and under.. shoot lead 6s. your pattern will last longer than the energy of the pellets will. And that is what your goal should be in finding the right load per gun. You never want a gun that produces great pattern with pellets that wont kill at that range. 

I think next year I will run a 20 or 28ga O/U a choke for a hot center core in one barrel, and a choke for a more open pattern on the closer birds. 

I agree with Buckmaster on that people who think they missed a bird, more times than not... actually end up wounding it instead. Especially if the bird was well in range.. unless you know for a fact you pulled the shot badly(like i did this year) but even then theres always flyer pellets in each and every pattern.  

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I agree. But it's knowing your gun, load combo at different yrds.  I've taken birds out to 50 yrds, and some as close as 3 yrds. 

I've missed a few at different yardages over the years. Most of those misses I knew as soon as the gun went off, I screwed up.  

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I agree. But it's knowing your gun, load combo at different yrds.  I've taken birds out to 50 yrds, and some as close as 3 yrds. 

I've missed a few at different yardages over the years. Most of those misses I knew as soon as the gun went off, I screwed up.  

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As 60-65-70+ yard shots are unethical in my view there  is no point validating the compromise of close range coverage. At longer distances, there is more to go wrong, Errors in aiming are magnified, crosswinds have more effect on the shot string and pattern, and as vegetation however slight.

What is also not mentioned is that claimed misses are many times not, A mortally wounded gobbler will haul ass out of there if at all capable.  Feeding coyotes and vultures is not an exercise in ethics in my opinion. The promotion of longer ranges increases the probability of wounded birds as it does with missing at close distances. There are a few duplex/triplex loads that are designed to address the short range pattern coverage.

It is one thing to up the performance of lethal impact, penetration, delivered energy on target at 30-40 yards. Having margin at 30-35-40 when you misjudge the distance by 5-10 yards yards is desirable. When you misjudge at 60-70+, the error is magnified. Studies on judging distance points this out. It is plausible to range find in a blind with those commonly used in archery, without a blind when the bird is in front, the movement would not be possible.

It is another thing, less noble pursuit to promote ranges that the hunter compromises on due to a failure of effective calling, setup, hunting strategy. 

Edited by mookyj
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Gone

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Turkey guns have always had trouble hitting birds at close range because of tight chokes.  That "close" range has just been extended a little farther with new ammo.  

Personally, I find it better to aim at a gobbler's lower neck when it's so close my pattern is the size of a golf ball.  The head can move just as you shoot causing a miss, but the lower neck doesn't move as much as the head.

I often demonstrate this with my right arm saying my fist is the head and my elbow is the lower neck.  Hold it up like a turkey's head and neck and move your fist and arm.  The fist and arm move a lot, but the elbow doesn't.  Knowing this may help you make that shot the next time a bird is really close.

 

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Not sure I agree that tight patterns are the problem. If you are relying on a spray of pellets to get a lucky one in the head or neck, you are probably going about it all wrong in the first place.

The whole idea behind TSS and HeviShot is not so much that they produce tighter patterns, but that they hit harder than lead, break more bones, and penetrate deeper in the carcass causing more trauma than lead. But yes, tighter patterns are the result of using denser metal. I've had very few misses or cripples since I started using Hevi Shot about 10 years ago; I haven't hunted with TSS yet, but will probably switch over next year when I run out of Hevi Shot shells.

Not really interested in going back to lead (Winchester Longbeard), but my understanding is that they shoot a very tight pattern. I WANT to be able to take a 50 yard shot if the situation arises (and sometimes do). If I was concerned that my pattern was too tight at 20 yards, I'd aim a little lower (neck/caruncles), a bobbing turkey head may not be the best target to shoot at. A couple breast pellets isn't a huge deal to me.

Edited by Uncle Nicky
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Not sure I agree that tight patterns are the problem. If you are relying on a spray of pellets to get a lucky one in the head or neck, you are probably going about it all wrong in the first place.

The whole idea behind TSS and HeviShot is not so much that they produce tighter patterns, but that they hit harder than lead, break more bones, and penetrate deeper in the carcass causing more trauma than lead. But yes, tighter patterns are the result of using denser metal. I've had very few misses or cripples since I started using Hevi Shot about 10 years ago; I haven't hunted with TSS yet, but will probably switch over next year when I run out of Hevi Shot shells.

Not really interested in going back to lead (Winchester Longbeard), but my understanding is that they shoot a very tight pattern. I WANT to be able to take a 50 yard shot if the situation arises (and sometimes do). If I was concerned that my pattern was too tight at 20 yards, I'd aim a little lower (neck/caruncles), a bobbing turkey head may not be the best target to shoot at. A couple breast pellets isn't a huge deal to me.

Exactly! The reason why tss is so effective isn’t because it shoots tighter but because you can use 7 or 8 even 9 and 10 shot “just not in NY” shot size instead of 4 or 5 shot and you then have nearly 50% more pellets heading toward the turkey. That’s why tss is so good is because it doesn’t need to be shot so tightly to obtain the same or better performance.

 

 

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Haven't upgraded a thing since I bought  my Turkey guns  back in the 80s. Pattern  density   at a given range. I guess I should investigate new chokes and ammo.  But I still have 3 boxes of Winchester buffered # 4 copper plate 3 1/2  10 gauge  to go through. Have turkeys developed armor  plating ?

Has nothing to do with turkeys being armored, if what you’re using is working stick with it. Me I’ve evolved with the times. In the early 2000’s when I started I shot 3 1/2” 12guages that kicked like a hell but killed the crap out of turkeys. Now I hunt with a under 5lb 20ga that kicks less than half as much and that shoots patterns that were unobtainable with the shells and chokes that were available when I started.


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The smaller surface area of the heavier smaller Tungsten pellets allows for even deeper penetration, than the comparison in lead since its much smaller, which greatly increases its max efficiency. I believe the max tested "ethical range" to kill with size 8 Tungsten shot is 90 yards. According to the gurus who produce loads, and do the gel penetration tests. And if you read the forums and the outlaws that poke and pray.. they've taken toms at 100yards  and over.. stupid i know.

I also picked up some 2s and 4s for coyotes. The gel penetration test on #2 Tungsten @1200fps went 14-18" deep @ 100 yards.. where the common buckshot and nickel plated stuff only went a few inches.. The 1-5/8oz load of #2s Tungsten with the right choke was putting over a dozen pellets in a 15" circle, @100yrds! easily kill coyote sized game and thats more around 20% of the load in the vitals again, at 100 yards. Impressive to say the least. 

More pellets per ounce/shell, smaller surface area means even more penetration.. its a win win  

Just slightly expensive... but so isnt your carbon arrows, braodheads etc.. 

Build a shot trap and you can reuse the expensive shot.. since it doesnt deform 

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I have a stupid :)  hypothetical question for you turkey experts 

Let's say you forgot your turkey loads   and had just some 

12 ga Rem 5 shot Express® XLR Extra Long Rang game loads on you that you always use for small game   how much of a difference is that really going to make  with a full choke .

 

 

 

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lots of variables. gauge, load, shell size. I shoot a 3.5" hevi-13 with a pure gold full choke and red dot. It's adequate out to 50, but I now no longer shoot past 30, and maybe would shoot 40 if conditions were perfect.

I think the biggest takeaway is to know your gun. Pattern at 15, 25 and 40 and understand how she shoots. Ran into my neighbor in the field last weekend (long story). He was toting a used 20, no choke and single bead site that he had never shot. Minding my own business and trying to be neighborly (again long story) i didn't say anything. later that morning he missed twice at 30 yards. texting i strongly encouraged him to pattern it. Later in the day he sends me a pic of what he thinks is a good pattern and it really was not at all. I sent him a good pic of one I had and I believe he's better aligned now haha.

Point is. Understand your gun and your pattern. You don't need the best gun, choke or load to kill a bird. But like archery, it's important to know that your poundage and arrow weight all provide limitations to your hunting experience. 

and now we have a spooked bird :(

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"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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6 minutes ago, Storm914 said:

I have a stupid :)  hypothetical question for you turkey experts 

Let's say you forgot your turkey loads   and had just some 

12 ga Rem 5 shot Express® XLR Extra Long Rang game loads on you that you always use for small game   how much of a difference is that really going to make  with a full choke .

 

 

 

If you're within 30 yards, it's a slam dunk. It's when you start trying to stretch things further that the game changes.

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15 minutes ago, Uncle Nicky said:

If you're within 30 yards, it's a slam dunk. It's when you start trying to stretch things further that the game changes.

Would have to honestly disagree as you wouldn't have a clue as to how it patterned. in many cases, different loads shift the point of aim and or blow out the patterns. This is true even in same model gun and barrel and even further same make and model choke. Seen the same model guns and with the same model, chokes shoot vastly different with the same shells. Micromachining tool marks are what is not 100% the same. Many cases results are similar, but how would you know? To knowingly go after them without confirming as to how it patterns or where your zero is, is much like buying a new gun, and boresighting it at 10 pm the night before opening day. Your quarry deserves more respect than that.

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lots of variables. gauge, load, shell size. I shoot a 3.5" hevi-13 with a pure gold full choke and red dot. It's adequate out to 50, but I now no longer shoot past 30, and maybe would shoot 40 if conditions were perfect.
I think the biggest takeaway is to know your gun. Pattern at 15, 25 and 40 and understand how she shoots. Ran into my neighbor in the field last weekend (long story). He was toting a used 20, no choke and single bead site that he had never shot. Minding my own business and trying to be neighborly (again long story) i didn't say anything. later that morning he missed twice at 30 yards. texting i strongly encouraged him to pattern it. Later in the day he sends me a pic of what he thinks is a good pattern and it really was not at all. I sent him a good pic of one I had and I believe he's better aligned now haha.
Point is. Understand your gun and your pattern. You don't need the best gun, choke or load to kill a bird. But like archery, it's important to know that your poundage and arrow weight all provide limitations to your hunting experience. 
and now we have a spooked bird

You’re dead on! The guy that has his shit together and has taken the time to know what he and his gun are capable of killing turkeys at 60+ yards bothers me way less than someone like stormy stumbling through the woods without a clue!

The sad part is there are many that have never shot their guns at a patterning board if at all and think they’re good to go because they have the shells they read about in a magazine or that the mouth breather that works at dicks recommended.

It’s no different than bow hunting, the guy that shoots all summer and kills deer at 60+ yards is way more ethical than the guy that pics his bow up the day before season and heads out hunting.


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4 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:


You’re dead on! The guy that has his shit together and has taken the time to know what he and his gun are capable of killing turkeys at 60+ yards bothers me way less than someone like stormy stumbling through the woods without a clue!

The sad part is there are many that have never shot their guns at a patterning board if at all and think they’re good to go because they have the shells they read about in a magazine or that the mouth breather that works at dicks recommended.

It’s no different than bow hunting, the guy that shoots all summer and kills deer at 60+ yards is way more ethical than the guy that pics his bow up the day before season and heads out hunting.


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at the very least, at least have some knowledge of your setup. at 30 yards it would require some serious luck to drop a tom with a 20, no choke and single bead site. You have to at least go in knowing you need under 20 with that setup and a good neck stretcher of a shot.

totally agree that i'd much rather hear of a guy shooting at 60 with a setup they're familiar and comfortable with will be ethical. Again with archery, I know theoretically my setup at 65lbs can kill a whitetail at 60. But I'm not comfortable with my own abilities or do I practice at that range. So to take that shot isn't ethical in my book.

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"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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38 minutes ago, Uncle Nicky said:

If you're within 30 yards, it's a slam dunk. It's when you start trying to stretch things further that the game changes.

 

15 minutes ago, mookyj said:

Would have to honestly disagree as you wouldn't have a clue as to how it patterned. in many cases, different loads shift the point of aim and or blow out the patterns. This is true even in same model gun and barrel and even further same make and model choke. Seen the same model guns and with the same model, chokes shoot vastly different with the same shells. Micromachining tool marks are what is not 100% the same. Many cases results are similar, but how would you know? To knowingly go after them without confirming as to how it patterns or where your zero is, is much like buying a new gun, and boresighting it at 10 pm the night before opening day. Your quarry deserves more respect than that.

i will agree that "slam dunk" is a bit much. I might not call hunting with that setup unethical, but it's also not super responsible. You really owe it to yourself to know how your gun shoots. You spend all the time getting ready and getting up at 4am, but not enough time to shoot a few shells downrange? 

I honestly think the safer distance for most loads and setups is 20 and under. just my .02. 


"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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Also as far as true misses and how you know that if you reflect on it. The Longer that Gobbler is in range-- the more apt you are to lift your head off your Stock to Peek at the Gobbler without knowing it.  Once you lift your head off your Stock- you are shooting over the top of that Gobbler. I believe this is very common with Spring Hunters when they miss. When , I shot regular Skeet and Registered Skeet, my Father taught me to keep my head Glued to the Stock.  That is how, I won a Registered 12 Gauge Doubles in 1994 and over 20 or so 100 Straights over the years.         Now that it is Leafed out in the Swamps and Hardwoods, I have switched to my regular extra full choke that came with my Mossberg 835 12 gauge. For Ammo, I am using 2 3/4"- 1 1/4 Oz's of #5s of the Prairie Storm Ammo. 30 percent Nickel plated,70 percent Copper plated. They devastate the Turkey Targets.

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18 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:


You’re dead on! The guy that has his shit together and has taken the time to know what he and his gun are capable of killing turkeys at 60+ yards bothers me way less than someone like stormy stumbling through the woods without a clue!

The sad part is there are many that have never shot their guns at a patterning board if at all and think they’re good to go because they have the shells they read about in a magazine or that the mouth breather that works at dicks recommended.

It’s no different than bow hunting, the guy that shoots all summer and kills deer at 60+ yards is way more ethical than the guy that pics his bow up the day before season and heads out hunting.


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It would be nice if you could make your point with out Bringing me into your argument someone you have no idea what i know or don't know about by the way,  just like I don't have clue about you or what you are all about .

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It would be nice if you could make your point with out Bringing me into your argument someone you have no idea what i know or don't know about by the way,  just like I don't have clue about you or what you are all about .

With the information “or lack there of” from the infinite number of ignorant “at best” posts and questions that you have posted on this forum I stand by what I said in my earlier post.


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at the very least, at least have some knowledge of your setup. at 30 yards it would require some serious luck to drop a tom with a 20, no choke and single bead site. You have to at least go in knowing you need under 20 with that setup and a good neck stretcher of a shot.
totally agree that i'd much rather hear of a guy shooting at 60 with a setup they're familiar and comfortable with will be ethical. Again with archery, I know theoretically my setup at 65lbs can kill a whitetail at 60. But I'm not comfortable with my own abilities or do I practice at that range. So to take that shot isn't ethical in my book.

No choke is probably incorrect, unless the fella you’re talking about screwed the choke out of his gun. Most barrels that are not threaded for a choke tube are indeed choked barrels. I have a 20ga H&R single shot with a modified chocked barrel that is very capable of killing turkeys at 30yds and has done it before. That being said I wouldn’t t push it much past that because the pattern does fall of quickly.


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6 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:


With the information “or lack there of” from the infinite number of ignorant “at best” posts and questions that you have posted on this forum I stand by what I said in my earlier post.


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You did say you are hunting turkey this year with a 410 hand gun did you not ?

You didn't here me say anything negative about that notice .

But you and a few others  seem to go out of your way for some reason at me  when you don't even know me .

Chill out .

 

 

 

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