ODYSSEUS

Is It Possible That Spring Hunters Are Missing More Turkeys At Under 35 Yards With The Combination Of A Triple Extra Full Choke Tube And New TSS And Longbeard ER Turkey Ammo??

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5 hours ago, Belo said:

it was his statement "i need to get it threaded, it has no choke". I'd post the pic of the pattern, but it was shared privately and it's a moot point. 

I've seen guys get fixed choked barrels threaded to use removable chokes. He may just have a terminology barrier. I've never seen a shotgun barrel that was just cylinder bore with just a beaded sight. 


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14 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I've seen guys get fixed choked barrels threaded to use removable chokes. He may just have a terminology barrier. I've never seen a shotgun barrel that was just cylinder bore with just a beaded sight. 

I have seen a few, Bob....They were Win M12 riot guns, parkerized and complete with ventilated handguards and bayonet lugs...The barrels were either 18" or 20" with cylinder bore and bead sights..We had about 6 of them in our small arms locker on the destroyer I served on from 1971-1973, along with about a dozen M1 Garands,  half a dozen Thompson SMGS, maybe a dozen .45s , 3 or 4 BARS,and an air cooled Browning machine gun...Oh yeah  we had one M1 carbine too..I guess that was for what ever officer who was leading the boarding party...  I wish I had one of those M12 Trench guns today....

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2 hours ago, Belo said:

 

patterning a gun never required tech nicky. And I bet most of our ancestors weren't shooting out to 30 yards and if they were it's because their kids were hungry and the potential for a wounded bird a lot less important. 

I don't fully agree with mookyj's way of responding to your post, but I do think it's hard to argue that understanding your gear and equipment is a bad thing and just walking into the woods without understanding your setup, gear and geez even how the gun will kick and feel is not a good idea to promote. 

As usual, these threads just turn to sh*t....:rofl:

I don't recall saying don't know your gun or pattern it (I do). But somehow, my skills and ethics are called out, simply because I said a 30-yard shot with a full choke gun is a slam dunk. Maybe I'm giving the experienced hunter (most of us are) a little too much credit, who knows. But all of my shotguns, dedicated for turkey or not, modified or full choke, will definitely put enough pellets in the head/neck region of a turkey at 30 yards, I wouldn't keep them if their patterns were that poor. I've patterned turkey guns, shotguns for buckshot, and duck guns...none of this is new to me. Know your gun, and if you don't feel confident in the shot or your setup, for heaven's sake, don't take the shot. Have I explained myself enough this time?:smoke:

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In support of Nicky... I have never seen a shotgun of 20 gauge or larger, with a modified or full choke barrel that would not produce a sure kill pattern with #6 shot at 30 yards.....There may be few a few out there, but they are surely lemons...

Beyond 30 yards, it can get a little dicey with the smaller gauges or the bigger ones with more open chokes, but most  2 3/4"  12 gauges I have patterned throw a killing pattern at 40 yards with #6 shot....If someone thinks #6 shot does not have the energy to do the job at 40 yards, you are full of chit....I have seen too many gobblers killed clean at 40-50 yards with #6 LEAD shot to believe that...

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51 minutes ago, Uncle Nicky said:

As usual, these threads just turn to sh*t....:rofl:

I don't recall saying don't know your gun or pattern it (I do). But somehow, my skills and ethics are called out, simply because I said a 30-yard shot with a full choke gun is a slam dunk. Maybe I'm giving the experienced hunter (most of us are) a little too much credit, who knows. But all of my shotguns, dedicated for turkey or not, modified or full choke, will definitely put enough pellets in the head/neck region of a turkey at 30 yards, I wouldn't keep them if their patterns were that poor. I've patterned turkey guns, shotguns for buckshot, and duck guns...none of this is new to me. Know your gun, and if you don't feel confident in the shot or your setup, for heaven's sake, don't take the shot. Have I explained myself enough this time?:smoke:

You might have wanted to lead with that last bit, turning to shit is something you started with the click bait statement. Can't say I appreciate your comment about my books, but I'll know from now on your opinion and willing to state something you have absolutely zero knowledge of. My accountant does, you certainly don't. 


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1 minute ago, Pygmy said:

In support of Nicky... I have never seen a shotgun of 20 gauge or larger, with a modified or full choke barrel that would not produce a sure kill pattern with #6 shot at 30 yards.....There may be few a few out there, but they are surely lemons...

Beyond 30 yards, it can get a little dicey with the smaller gauges or the bigger ones with more open chokes, but most  2 3/4"  12 gauges I have patterned throw a killing pattern at 40 yards with #6 shot....If someone thinks #6 shot does not have the energy to do the job at 40 yards, you are full of chit....I have seen too many gobblers killed clean at 40-50 yards with #6 LEAD shot to believe that...

If you set up a gun for tungsten, especially with a more open choke, it goes to shit with target loads or some of the turkey loads of yesteryear. I've seen the point of aim vary as much as a foot @20 between hevishot and lead or copper/lead shells on 870's , 835's, 500's, 11/87s and brownings bps and auto's. Also seen Point of aim change between different offerings of tungsten loads/shot/sizes The point being was to not blindly take it afield without confirming. Took a few posts to change his tune

 


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3 minutes ago, mookyj said:

If you set up a gun for tungsten, especially with a more open choke, it goes to shit with target loads or some of the turkey loads of yesteryear. I've seen the point of aim vary as much as a foot @20 between hevishot and lead or copper/lead shells on 870's , 835's, 500's, 11/87s and brownings bps and auto's. Also seen Point of aim change between different offerings of tungsten loads/shot/sizes The point being was to not blindly take it afield without confirming. Took a few posts to change his tune

 

Point taken, Mike....  I have never  screwed around with any of that  newfangled crap.... My experience has been with  buffered lead or plated lead loads....For killing turkeys  at the ranges I shoot them, it is all I have ever needed..

I reload for all of my centerfire rifles and have seen significant changes of impact between different projectiles, even when they are the same weight...I can appreciate the fact that by changing from lead to tungsten might affect the POA... I load both monolithic and conventional  copper/lead  bullets and sometimes see significant differences in similar weight bullets..

No issue for me, because I will continue to shoot my turkeys within45 yards with time tested copper plated lead shot...

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23 minutes ago, mookyj said:

. Took a few posts to change his tune

 

More assumptions, or just plain lack of reading comprehension. Not changing my tune, just clarification. A 30 yard shot is a slam dunk unless you just can't shoot (may just be the problem, in your case, but this is boring me). Keep at it if you want, but you're starting to sound like a crazy bag lady on the el train.

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If you set up a gun for tungsten, especially with a more open choke, it goes to shit with target loads or some of the turkey loads of yesteryear. I've seen the point of aim vary as much as a foot @20 between hevishot and lead or copper/lead shells on 870's , 835's, 500's, 11/87s and brownings bps and auto's. Also seen Point of aim change between different offerings of tungsten loads/shot/sizes The point being was to not blindly take it afield without confirming. Took a few posts to change his tune
 

Your more open choke part makes zero sense, although Im not sure if I believe you if what you’re saying was true it would be the other way with the tighter chokes having more of a poi change.

A shotgun that shoots a ft from poi at 20yds should be thrown in the creek.




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38 minutes ago, Uncle Nicky said:

More assumptions, or just plain lack of reading comprehension. Not changing my tune, just clarification. A 30 yard shot is a slam dunk unless you just can't shoot (may just be the problem, in your case, but this is boring me). Keep at it if you want, but you're starting to sound like a crazy bag lady on the el train.

gotta hand it to ya, your arrogance outpaces your intellect by a country mile, too bad you can't accept any criticism for bad advice, or that  you are totally assuming and disparaging when someone doesn't agree with you ... BTW I shoot just fine, better than some, again another dumb ass assumption from you.  I'll be glad to repeat to you in person, just say'n.


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17 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:


Your more open choke part makes zero sense, although Im not sure if I believe you if what you’re saying was true it would be the other way with the tighter chokes having more of a poi change.

A shotgun that shoots a ft from poi at 20yds should be thrown in the creek.


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hevi shot TSS and other tungsten loads do not pattern well with the tighter chokes used for lead, copper/lead  and blow out the pattern. I have not found that lead or copper/lead shells pattern well at all with what works for tungsten loads.  roughly a 0.030 to 0.050 difference in choke diameter  depending on make and model choke.   

 

"A shotgun that shoots a ft from poi at 20yds should be thrown in the creek."  well my comment  comes from guns I have seen shoot lead straight,  and took a bit of work to get the right choke and shell to not only pattern well, but with similar POI  


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To this day, the best Turkey Loads, I have ever shot are the old ACTIV PENETRATORs. When, I found out that the Company would be no more, I bought a whole case at a discount. 25 Boxes of 10 Turkey Loads. I still have plenty left. That was back around 1999. I have killed plenty of Fall and Spring Turkeys with the Activ penetrators. They have never let me down. Never-- not on a long shot or a closer shot. All Birds were down to stay. They were 3," shells loaded with 2 1/4ozs of Nickel Plated shot. My case was all #4s. If they were not so old, I would still use them. I am sure all would fire.

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From what I have seen uncle nicky is right you miss at 30 yards and under with a 12ga scatter gun  on game 

Its time to get a new hobby.  

That someone flinching badly and jerking the trigger .

Edited by Storm914
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hevi shot TSS and other tungsten loads do not pattern well with the tighter chokes used for lead, copper/lead  and blow out the pattern. I have not found that lead or copper/lead shells pattern well at all with what works for tungsten loads.  roughly a 0.030 to 0.050 difference in choke diameter  depending on make and model choke.   

 

"A shotgun that shoots a ft from poi at 20yds should be thrown in the creek."  well my comment  comes from guns I have seen shoot lead straight,  and took a bit of work to get the right choke and shell to not only pattern well, but with similar POI  

 

Yea I get it, killed a bunch of turkeys with heavy shot it doesn’t like to choked as tight, heavy shot was finicky but killed the shit out of birds. But back to the original statement made by nick that you had such a problem with.

 

If your gun is choked a little more open because you’re shooting heavy shot you’re still going to be able to pick up a box of high brass lead number 5’s and kill a turkey at 30yds. I guess there could be the less intelligent in the world that could try to adjust their scope or dot or bend their rib to try and center their sights on the hottest part of the blown out pattern but those people are the reason there are warning signs on wood chippers and don’t really count for statistics.

 

30yds load of number 5 high brass shotgun with a mod choke or tighter in a 20ga or larger is a SLAM DUNK on a turkey.

 

Have a good day I’m out of this one.

 

 

 

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What has launched a flurry of posts was a statement of using whatever shell and under 30 yards it doesn't matter, not to worry about patterning. (paraphrasing)  To question it has been a flurry of assumptions and the epitome of too lazy to bother akin to those that don't bother to pattern goose loads or duck loads, good enough they say.  Because of my learned opinion to the contrary I am accused of being a keyboard wannabe, not selling books, can't shoot, flinch whatever. None of which is remotely true. I will say what I have to say face to face, and not the slightest bit timid should one doubt otherwise. I won't type just to waste someone's time or without an honest reason. Ego's first, rational discussion cast  aside. King of the forum pathology in my view. 

Those that follow or know me, know that I own, maintain multiple dedicated turkey setups, use to own more,  and slam gobblers year after year. Out of 148 moments of truth, 7 birds opted not to ride home in the truck in 26 years. 4 of which Winchester determined I had boxes of underloaded factory shells that should not have passed QC. They sent me two replacement boxes that I'll never use for turkey's ever again.  I had my guns patterned with that particular load, just not from that batch. Truthfully, It never occurred to me that something like that could slip thru production in a modernized facility they have. Over the years countless shells tested and dozens of chokes, The early years of tungsten I did not find a combination I was happy with, worth using over copper plated lead. Even while working for Hevi-shot, I still used copper plated lead in some guns as it was what they shot best. Eventually I found a choke/shell combos for each gun that gave me consistent results in pattern density and uniformity in a 3" circle.  As a rep and participating in still target shoots, I got to work through many more setups of others and gained the opinion I have. 

Unlike some of the poor advice being permeated here. I'll recommend to pattern, sight in every firearm you own every time, and with any load/shell you ever plan to use. Never be too lazy, too cheap to end up not knowing what you are putting downrange and in respect to your quarry for a clean kill.  This for me was what flared up as some are too arrogant to back down their bravado to realize they put forth bad advice, especially for those that are just learning. Wives tales perpetuated from decades ago. 

Given the way folks are in here, those too attached with their ego's being a big fish in a small pond, I'll be visiting less often if at all as it is no longer a place of down to earth conversation. The decorum isn't worth the BS or to have an opinion not in concert with those having nothing better to do... 


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47 minutes ago, mookyj said:

What has launched a flurry of posts was a statement of using whatever shell and under 30 yards it doesn't matter, not to worry about patterning. (paraphrasing)  To question it has been a flurry of assumptions and the epitome of too lazy to bother akin to those that don't bother to pattern goose loads or duck loads, good enough they say.  Because of my learned opinion to the contrary I am accused of being a keyboard wannabe, not selling books, can't shoot, flinch whatever. None of which is remotely true. I will say what I have to say face to face, and not the slightest bit timid should one doubt otherwise. I won't type just to waste someone's time or without an honest reason. Ego's first, rational discussion cast  aside. King of the forum pathology in my view. 

Those that follow or know me, know that I own, maintain multiple dedicated turkey setups, use to own more,  and slam gobblers year after year. Out of 148 moments of truth, 7 birds opted not to ride home in the truck in 26 years. 4 of which Winchester determined I had boxes of underloaded factory shells that should not have passed QC. They sent me two replacement boxes that I'll never use for turkey's ever again.  I had my guns patterned with that particular load, just not from that batch. Truthfully, It never occurred to me that something like that could slip thru production in a modernized facility they have. Over the years countless shells tested and dozens of chokes, The early years of tungsten I did not find a combination I was happy with, worth using over copper plated lead. Even while working for Hevi-shot, I still used copper plated lead in some guns as it was what they shot best. Eventually I found a choke/shell combos for each gun that gave me consistent results in pattern density and uniformity in a 3" circle.  As a rep and participating in still target shoots, I got to work through many more setups of others and gained the opinion I have. 

Unlike some of the poor advice being permeated here. I'll recommend to pattern, sight in every firearm you own every time, and with any load/shell you ever plan to use. Never be too lazy, too cheap to end up not knowing what you are putting downrange and in respect to your quarry for a clean kill.  This for me was what flared up as some are too arrogant to back down their bravado to realize they put forth bad advice, especially for those that are just learning. Wives tales perpetuated from decades ago. 

Given the way folks are in here, those too attached with their ego's being a big fish in a small pond, I'll be visiting less often if at all as it is no longer a place of down to earth conversation. The decorum isn't worth the BS or to have an opinion not in concert with those having nothing better to do... 

You certainly sound like you have plenty of experience in patterning guns & loads, please share your methods and pics if you have them.

 


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15 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I've seen guys get fixed choked barrels threaded to use removable chokes. He may just have a terminology barrier. I've never seen a shotgun barrel that was just cylinder bore with just a beaded sight. 

 

14 hours ago, Pygmy said:

I have seen a few, Bob....They were Win M12 riot guns, parkerized and complete with ventilated handguards and bayonet lugs...The barrels were either 18" or 20" with cylinder bore and bead sights..We had about 6 of them in our small arms locker on the destroyer I served on from 1971-1973, along with about a dozen M1 Garands,  half a dozen Thompson SMGS, maybe a dozen .45s , 3 or 4 BARS,and an air cooled Browning machine gun...Oh yeah  we had one M1 carbine too..I guess that was for what ever officer who was leading the boarding party...  I wish I had one of those M12 Trench guns today....

maybe i'm missing something but my dad's got a Winchester Model 1897 that doesn't have a threaded choke.  I'd think a lot of older shotguns would be this way? i'm not a gun nut.


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maybe i'm missing something but my dad's got a Winchester Model 1897 that doesn't have a threaded choke.  I'd think a lot of older shotguns would be this way? i'm not a gun nut.

Many older and even some modern guns don’t have removable chokes. They generally have what is called a choked barrel, the barrel tapers down to a tighter constriction than the 12ga .73”

 

Other than some military/ law enforcement and now home defense markets that are made with a “cylinder bore” most all shotguns have a choked barrel.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

 

maybe i'm missing something but my dad's got a Winchester Model 1897 that doesn't have a threaded choke.  I'd think a lot of older shotguns would be this way? i'm not a gun nut.

Culver stated that he had never seen a CYLINDER BORE shotgun with a bead sight and not threaded for choke tubes...

Interchangable  choke tubes did not become common until the 1970s and until then the choke was built into the barrel....

Choke is constriction of the bore near the muzzle to concentrate the shot and make the pattern smaller, hence increasing the effective range of the gun...Cylinder bore  is no constriction at all... It was common in riot guns and trench guns, which were simply military versions of riot guns..

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15 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I've seen guys get fixed choked barrels threaded to use removable chokes. He may just have a terminology barrier. I've never seen a shotgun barrel that was just cylinder bore with just a beaded sight. 

this is a pretty old looking gun. Even if it has a choke, it's certainly not a turkey choke. It's very clearly a "flying bird" gun.


"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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1 hour ago, ATbuckhunter said:


What?


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I made a mistake wanted to respond to someone else's post so I deleted the post sorry about that 

Edited by Storm914

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4 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:


Many older and even some modern guns don’t have removable chokes. They generally have what is called a choked barrel, the barrel tapers down to a tighter construction than the 12ga .73”

Other than some military/ law enforcement and now home defense markets that are made with a “cylinder bore” most all shotguns have a choked barrel.


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2 minutes ago, Pygmy said:

Culver stated that he had never seen a CYLINDER BORE shotgun with a bead sight and not threaded for choke tubes...

Interchangable  choke tubes did not become common until the 1970s and until then the choke was built into the barrel....

Choke is constriction of the bore near the muzzle to concentrate the shot and make the pattern smaller, hence increasing the effective range of the gun...Cylinder bore  is no constriction at all... It was common in riot guns and trench guns, which were simply military versions of riot guns..

yea that makes sense. using it, the constriction doesn't seem like much at all. maybe it's IC or modified. just doesn't seem like a full to me.  barrel seems stupid long too.


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16 hours ago, Pygmy said:

I have patterned quite a few shotshells over the years, but I have never  made a career of it...

 

In my humble amount of experience,  any load I have ever patterned  printed in basically the same spot  as long as the sights were the same....Shotgun velocities are not varied enough to produce drastic differences in POA  at average ranges....I have sighted in and centered patterns many times at 20 yards with light field or target loads and then confirmed them at 40 yards with heavy 3" loads, and have never seen a significant change in POA..  The difference between  high vel loads and target loads is only about 200 - 300 FPS, and that doesn't mean much with  shot energy or trajectory within normal shooting range...

I have never played around with the super long range ( 50 yards plus) stuff, nor do I intend to....

I don't intend to get into a pissing contest, but that has been my experience....I am no expert, but I have been patterning guns for close to 50 years..

i agree with this. when i first patterned my 835 and sited in my red dot there was no way i was going to use expensive ass hevi-13 loads. So I used some cheaper  2-3/4 pheasant loads. After my POA was confirmed I threw in a hevi-13 and she basically patterned in the same spot. 

I wish I could find the pics, because what was most notable to me was the spread. Not night and day, but did confirm to me that the 3.5" turkey load held a nicer group at 40 yards. The difference at 20 yards though was negligible. 

I am no ballistics expert, don't really know a whole lot about ammunition at all, but it was helpful for me as a hunter to see what my effectiveness would be at different yardages. It gave me confidence, that if I missed at 40, it was on me. The guy I mentioned earlier took a shot that he had no business taking because he had no idea what his effective kill range was. Looking back on the pic, he had 2 bb's in a 10" window and none in the bull.

Sometimes I feel like we're more forgiving of poor bird hunters then we ever would be with poor deer hunters. 


"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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