old man river

Is It Possible That Spring Hunters Are Missing More Turkeys At Under 35 Yards With The Combination Of A Triple Extra Full Choke Tube And New TSS And Longbeard ER Turkey Ammo??

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11 minutes ago, Storm914 said:

I made a mistake wanted to respond to someone else's post so I deleted the post sorry about that 

All good no worries

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13 hours ago, Uncle Nicky said:

As usual, these threads just turn to sh*t....:rofl:

I don't recall saying don't know your gun or pattern it (I do). But somehow, my skills and ethics are called out, simply because I said a 30-yard shot with a full choke gun is a slam dunk. Maybe I'm giving the experienced hunter (most of us are) a little too much credit, who knows. But all of my shotguns, dedicated for turkey or not, modified or full choke, will definitely put enough pellets in the head/neck region of a turkey at 30 yards, I wouldn't keep them if their patterns were that poor. I've patterned turkey guns, shotguns for buckshot, and duck guns...none of this is new to me. Know your gun, and if you don't feel confident in the shot or your setup, for heaven's sake, don't take the shot. Have I explained myself enough this time?:smoke:

there are a lot of lurkers. I don't even disagree with your statement. I think it's fair. I guess I dislike the term "slam dunk". It promotes a guy going to dicks on friday. buying a mossberg 535 "turkey special" and a box of winchester long beards and heading into the woods saturday morning. It's not that his setup isn't just fine for the job, i just believe all hunters should understand if they're throwing a softball, baseball or beachball down range and at what ranges those patterns change. Knowing to aim at the neck and woddles vs the head and for god's sake knowing how the gun will kick and hopefully prevent the flinch in the moment of truth.


"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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43 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

 

maybe i'm missing something but my dad's got a Winchester Model 1897 that doesn't have a threaded choke.  I'd think a lot of older shotguns would be this way? i'm not a gun nut.

 

29 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:


Many older and even some modern guns don’t have removable chokes. They generally have what is called a choked barrel, the barrel tapers down to a tighter construction than the 12ga .73”

Other than some military/ law enforcement and now home defense markets that are made with a “cylinder bore” most all shotguns have a choked barrel.


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it also depends on what the non-threaded choke is. is it full, modified, improved. My dad has 2 older shotguns with non-threaded chokes. One is an IC and not great for turkeys. The other is a side by side with one full and one modified i believe. Better for turkey. Having a threaded barrel only gives you options. But having a full choke "built in" is just fine for thunder chickens. You just lose flexibility if you wanted to hunt with that gun for waterfowl or something. But that just gives you an excuse to buy another gun, so I dont see the harm.


"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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43 minutes ago, Belo said:

there are a lot of lurkers. I don't even disagree with your statement. I think it's fair. I guess I dislike the term "slam dunk". It promotes a guy going to dicks on friday. buying a mossberg 535 "turkey special" and a box of winchester long beards and heading into the woods saturday morning. It's not that his setup isn't just fine for the job, i just believe all hunters should understand if they're throwing a softball, baseball or beachball down range and at what ranges those patterns change. Knowing to aim at the neck and woddles vs the head and for god's sake knowing how the gun will kick and hopefully prevent the flinch in the moment of truth.

Maybe, but IMO, even a slam dunk can be botched....

As I mentioned, maybe I give too many turkey hunters credit, the majority of those I know & hunt with are naturally going to know their guns, choke, and shells, as well as all the other skills involved. And honestly, I think even the guy behind the counter at Dick's is going to suggest turkey loads rather than a high brass game load for turkeys. When I first started turkey hunting (1980s) there were no dedicated turkey loads (that I was aware of), really the only option WAS a full choke gun and high brass #4 or 5, and you kept shots within 30 yards...plenty of birds killed then. Lots of guys lugged 10 gauges around then, the thought being more pellets = deader bird. I'll say we've come a LONG way since then, chokes have gotten better, ammo has gotten more effective, and longer shots than 30 are ethical (IMO). And before the personal attacks start again, I am NOT SAYING do not pattern your gun, I never said anything like that. But if you have any experience and familiarity with your setup, 30 yards should be a dead bird every time, even with a high brass squirrel load, provided you aim for the right vital region.

Edited by Uncle Nicky
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2 minutes ago, Uncle Nicky said:

Maybe, but IMO, even a slam dunk can be botched....

As I mentioned, maybe I give too many turkey hunters credit, the majority of those I know & hunt with are naturally going to know their guns, choke, and shells, as well as all the other skills involved. 

this is the only thing you said that i wanted to straighten out. This is the net. We have a bunch of active mature and knowledgeable guys and gals. But we also have hundreds of lurkers coming here through google. People who are very different than your circle. Maybe never even been camping, but want to try turkey hunting.

we should promote responsibility, that's all.

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"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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For the lurkers and anyone that may not know. This fancy Ammo May give you more pellets into the pattern. A good thing right? But it isn’t going to change the shot pattern size appreciably if at all. A full choke is going to be about a circle sized about 30” at 40 yards. A mod will be about 30” at 35 yards and a IC should be about 30” at 30 yards. Going from 2-3/4” to 3” to 3-1/2” isn’t going to change this. It will put more pellets in the same sized circle though. Also gauge won’t effect this much. A 20,16and 12 will be very similar to each other. Meaning a 20 gauge with mod will have same circle size as a 12 mod at same distance. (Manufacturers variances not considered). That was the draw to the “turkey” chokes. Extra fulls and further.


"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin

"The trouble with Socialism is, sooner or later you run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher

"When you subsidize poverty and failure, you get more of both.." - James Dale Davidson, National Taxpayers Union

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I wont run tungsten thru my dads setup. I will continue to shoot what he shot when he would walk the spring woods..  I shot his setup which is a mossberg 500 camo.. with Undertaker 665 choke shooting longbeard 4s. this at 30 yards

IMG_20150414_121328_804.jpeg

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45 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

 

yea that makes sense. using it, the constriction doesn't seem like much at all. maybe it's IC or modified. just doesn't seem like a full to me.  barrel seems stupid long too.

Actually we are only talking .035 " to .040" of constriction  for a full choke....The choke should be stamped on the barrel, left side, just ahead of the receiver....Most 30"  and 32"  barrels I have seen are choked full...

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I don't like those "shoot N See" type target for patterning a turkey gun.  I think they can make a load look a little more impressive than it is, sometimes.  A false sense of security........

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not sure what the hub-bub is with hevi shot and not pattering well. 

This is either 30 or 40, I can't remember. Puregold choke and hevi-13

http://pure-gold-shotgun-chokes5.mybigcommerce.com/mossh12670/

001.thumb.JPG.867ecc231217c9e0482a874117a4daeb.JPG

That’s a good pattern and would certainly kill a turkey, I used heavy shot for a long time but in my opinion there are better options these days.

 

I have a couple of 20ga setups that will probably come close to doubling the pellets in a 10” circle at 40yds than your pattern. Again not saying yours is bad because it’s not just trying to explain to you why some don’t shoot the heavy shot anymore.

 

Honestly it’s all hair splitting a turkey can only get so dead and it really only takes 1 pellet to right spot to knock one down. If you’re not shooting ranges past 35-40yds about any turkey load made will do the job.

 

My problem with some people is that they either don’t know or forgot how crappy our patterns were 20years ago compared to what some of us are getting today yet we still killed plenty of birds.

 

 

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Good point buckmaster makes 20 30 50  years ago people were still killing birds with no fancy ammo .  

It really only takes  1  pellet from a shotgun shell   , that  hits the right spot on small game and it's a instant death  with in 30 maybe even 40 yards approximately that's plenty of range most of the time .

Edited by Storm914

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2 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

For the lurkers and anyone that may not know. This fancy Ammo May give you more pellets into the pattern. A good thing right? But it isn’t going to change the shot pattern size appreciably if at all. A full choke is going to be about a circle sized about 30” at 40 yards. A mod will be about 30” at 35 yards and a IC should be about 30” at 30 yards. Going from 2-3/4” to 3” to 3-1/2” isn’t going to change this. It will put more pellets in the same sized circle though. Also gauge won’t effect this much. A 20,16and 12 will be very similar to each other. Meaning a 20 gauge with mod will have same circle size as a 12 mod at same distance. (Manufacturers variances not considered). That was the draw to the “turkey” chokes. Extra fulls and further.

great post, bolded 2 points so that they're not lost on newbies.

more pellets in a circle is a good thing. Not the end all be all, but a good thing when what you're trying to do is kill a bird and not all shots are perfect.

a 20 or 16 is great and a 3.5" isn't needed either but higher velocities also help kill things better. 

 

Yes, all you need is one well placed bb. The same argument guys will use to hunt deer with a .223 or argue that you can kill a deer with a field point. There's stories of guys killing grizzlies with a .22. All true. But similar to handgun self defense, you need to pick a load that is effective and efficient for YOU. Not everyone can handle turkey mag loads or a small framed .45. I'd always recommend someone pick a .380 that they can put shots on target vs a hand cannon where they can't. Same applies to turkey loads in my opinion. 

 

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"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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2 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

That’s a good pattern and would certainly kill a turkey, I used heavy shot for a long time but in my opinion there are better options these days.

 

I have a couple of 20ga setups that will probably come close to doubling the pellets in a 10” circle at 40yds than your pattern. Again not saying yours is bad because it’s not just trying to explain to you why some don’t shoot the heavy shot anymore.

 

Honestly it’s all hair splitting a turkey can only get so dead and it really only takes 1 pellet to right spot to knock one down. If you’re not shooting ranges past 35-40yds about any turkey load made will do the job.

 

My problem with some people is that they either don’t know or forgot how crappy our patterns were 20years ago compared to what some of us are getting today yet we still killed plenty of birds.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have 6 shells left I think. My plan is to get close to done with them and test some of the newer loads. However, similar to some of the guys still running what their dad ran... it seemed to work well this spring. Problem is that it's harder to find. I appreciate the insight. 


"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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1 hour ago, Storm914 said:

Good point buckmaster makes 20 30 50  years ago people were still killing birds with no fancy ammo .  

It really only takes  1  pellet from a shotgun shell   , that  hits the right spot on small game and it's a instant death  with in 30 maybe even 40 yards approximately that's plenty of range most of the time .

i wasnt hunting turkeys 30 years ago, but i would also venture to guess they missed more and took most shots under 30. Technology just increases the odds in our favor. It doesn't completely change the game.


"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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i wasnt hunting turkeys 30 years ago, but i would also venture to guess they missed more and took most shots under 30. Technology just increases the odds in our favor. It doesn't completely change the game.

Absolutely, the new shells and chokes makes 50yds what 35 was 15-20yrs ago.


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Happened to me Sunday morning. Shot at bird at 20 yards aiming just below the head. Clean miss, bird ran away unscathed. I'm shooting Federal #4, 3.5", 12 gauge with ultra full turkey choke. Next time I aim just above the body at close range ! I never missed a bird before, guess there's always a first time.

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From this point forward- in the Swamps and the Leaves out Hardwoods-- the Gobblers will be much closer. I would change from that Ultra Full Turkey choke to the Full choke that came with the gun. I would also switch from #4s to #5s for Hardwood + Swamp Turkey hunts. You could possibly get another Tom in close to you at 20 yards on your next hunt.

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45 minutes ago, catskillkid said:

Happened to me Sunday morning. Shot at bird at 20 yards aiming just below the head. Clean miss, bird ran away unscathed. I'm shooting Federal #4, 3.5", 12 gauge with ultra full turkey choke. Next time I aim just above the body at close range ! I never missed a bird before, guess there's always a first time.

How big is an ultrafull pattern at 20 yards?


"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin

"The trouble with Socialism is, sooner or later you run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher

"When you subsidize poverty and failure, you get more of both.." - James Dale Davidson, National Taxpayers Union

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