Bad Genetics?

[BizCT]

I have read over the years on how some spikes can turn it around and become bucks with great racks in future years. But I wonder if that's true in places with weaker genetics and food availability.

I hunt 3N, so the genetics aren't great like WNY or other parts of the state. I'm curious as to people's thoughts on the examples below. The spike on 12/9 is clearly tiny. His body is like a fawn, but since he has small spikes he must 1.5 years old. Next year when he is 2.5 I bet he is only a 4pt at best. Do you agree?

I have also included 2 other bucks (10/7) and a buck I saw in person (11/2) that appear to also be 1.5's but are 4/6pts. Their bodies look bigger, so maybe they will be bigger 6's or even 8's as 2.5's. There's no way for me to know for sure next year, but I would be shocked if that spike has an equal rack/body next year as the other two bucks.

@Four Season Whitetail's tagging you for your thoughts. although, i'm sure your experience is skewed since fenced in deer grow much bigger racks.

[Rack Attack]

That first pic of the very small spike could have been an early fawn from this year and it grew spikes rather than just buttons.

[BizCT]

8 minutes ago, Rack Attack said:

That first pic of the very small spike could have been an early fawn from this year and it grew spikes rather than just buttons.

I always heard it is not possible for fawn to have spikes. even in that rare circumstance, wouldn't it only happen in crazy superior genetics/habitat. I wonder if @Four Season Whitetail's even has fawns with spikes? i doubt it.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Biz-R-OWorld

[Steuben Jerry]

This is going to be an interesting thread!

I've just assumed that a fawn could grow spikes, but I can't back that up with any learned fact. I've seen some 70-80 lb bucks with smaller spikes and just assumed they were fawns due to body size. A year and a half old buck around here is mostly a 100-120 lb deer - disclaimer, I was not able to get the infamous PA girth tape on those deer, they were too fast.

 

[Buckmaster7600]

I’m no scientist but from body size that sure looks like a fawn with spikes to me.


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[Don_C]

I had a spike fawn under my stand a few times during bow season this year. He was tiny and his spikes were literally as thick as pencils, but probably 6 inches long. I have never seen anything like it before.

[NFA-ADK]

 

[BizCT]

10 minutes ago, Steuben Jerry said:

This is going to be an interesting thread!

I've just assumed that a fawn could grow spikes, but I can't back that up with any learned fact. I've seen some 70-80 lb bucks with smaller spikes and just assumed they were fawns due to body size. A year and a half old buck around here is mostly a 100-120 lb deer - disclaimer, I was not able to get the infamous PA girth tape on those deer, they were too fast.

 

 

 

Interesting for sure. For many years I have read that no fawn can grow spikes.

@Buckmaster7600 and @Don_C

Edited December 18, 2019 by Biz-R-OWorld

[WNY Bowhunter]

You really can't determine his genetic potential compared to the other too. I'd say he was a late born fawn with poor nutrition.  Out here in Region 8 I see lots of great yearlings...and lots of poor ones too. In years with a late spring greenup like the past two years...I see way more spikes as a result of the stress from the lack of spring nutrition. 

[BizCT]

1 minute ago, WNY Bowhunter said:

You really can't determine his genetic potential compared to the other too. I'd say he was a late born fawn with poor nutrition.  Out here in Region 8 I see lots of great yearlings...and lots of poor ones too. In years with a late spring greenup like the past two years...I see way more spikes as a result of the stress from the lack of spring nutrition. 

so you think that spike is a 1.5 but born late for his year? That makes sense to me.

[chrisw]

Our lease has good genetics, although we see a fair amount of spikes at 1.5, they seem to jump right back in line for the most part when they hit 2.5 yrs old. Not all deer are destined to be big, but judging spikes can be like guessing how big a chicken will get based on the egg....

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[squirrelwhisperer]

Not being a biologist, I find it hard to age a deer beyond a guess. I have this personal thing where I don't want to take a buck unless he is bigger than something I already took. The caveat being the manner of take, i.e. bow or shotgun. Hopefully one day I get to use one of my rifles, but I digress. That being said, not only do I choose to pass almost as many bucks as I see, but I always think, "I hope we meet in a year or three." There is an over abundance of doe by me and I was told that leads to the real Giants no having to move much, so you almost don't see them. Personally I would choose a doe over a small buck any day because I have no idea how much potential he has and you see so many more of them. Besides, when you have actually seen Buckzilla and know he's in there somewhere, why take his grandson?

I guess the real answer for me is...I have no idea lol

great thread Biz. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by squirrelwhisperer

[BizCT]

4 minutes ago, chrisw said:

Our lease has good genetics, although we see a fair amount of spikes at 1.5, they seem to jump right back in line for the most part when they hit 2.5 yrs old. Not all deer are destined to be big, but judging spikes can be like guessing how big a chicken will get based on the egg....

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I hear ya. I get several "normal" spikes on camera too each year. Who knows what they turn into. I just couldn't help but notice how small the body of this one is.

[chrisw]

Charles Alsheimer did an 11 yr (I think) study on this very topic. He followed a buck for 12 years, which started as a small spikehorn. At the bucks prime he was 160+". He lived 12 years and died of old age. It's a really cool read if you haven't yet...

 

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[BizCT]

7 minutes ago, chrisw said:

Charles Alsheimer did an 11 yr (I think) study on this very topic. He followed a buck for 11.5 years, which started as a small spikehorn. At the bucks prime he was 140". He lived 11 years and died of old age. It's a really cool read if you haven't yet...

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I think someone posted that video above. Haven't had a chance to watch it. But how can someone track a 1.5 spike in the wild? Did it have a scar or marking to make it obvious?

[chrisw]

I think someone posted that video above. Haven't had a chance to watch it. But how can someone track a 1.5 spike in the wild? Did it have a scar or marking to make it obvious?

It was on his private farm in NY. A large chunk that was used for studying deer. The deer were not hunted to my knowledge.

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[chrisw]

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[chrisw]

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[chrisw]

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[E J]

Charlie had a 35 acre enclosure at his house if that's where he followed the buck. I can't remember if that's where he did that. Before he had the enclosure he had exclusive access to a large acreage in the adirondacks where he had the deer trained like pets to let him follow them around.

[NFA-ADK]

The video to these pics is posted above.  Great info! 

[chrisw]

The video to these pics is posted above.  Great info! 

I saw that now! Sorry, I jumped ahead and didn't see you had posted it.

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[Robhuntandfish]

this buck was a big spike last year and is a 4 - possible 5 this year but a bruiser.  Had high spikes last year - body is huge - so gotta say genetics of this deer to just be high tined and not many points.  Cause he is def mature . 

That one big 4 that Moog posted last season was awesome.  This was the buck i hunted the most all season.  Got within 50 yards of him twice but all just as i was leaving after dark.  

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I'd bet that in most cases the spike was a late born fawn the previous year. Couple it with food source green up and will happen but is NO WAY an indicator of his potential. Going into his second year they pretty much even up with the other earlier born deer of the same age and you won't notice a difference. At that time is when you will see the genetics of the region start to show through but the food source variance in a year can still have a major impact. 

[chrisw]

Charlie had a 35 acre enclosure at his house if that's where he followed the buck. I can't remember if that's where he did that. Before he had the enclosure he had exclusive access to a large acreage in the adirondacks where he had the deer trained like pets to let him follow them around.

I'm not sure on the details, I heard he had a farm in Bath, NY. For science purposes they may have even microchipped the deer as a fawn to track it through its life cycle. Either way, what a legend Charlie Alsheimer was. I never met the man but felt like my friend died when I heard the news.

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