What is this country coming to??

[Dave]

Nice work, woofer. You post the dictionary definition of the word, and then distort it to fit your own version. By your definition, it seems that gun ownership is a prerequisite to patriotism.

Dave, your posts are so dopey, that they're not worth responding to anymore.

That's exactly the way I feel about the crap you post. So what was so dopy about what I said. Was it not true? Or just not what you want to hear. Are you confused with the facts?

[Doewhacker]

Dave, ever hear of The Free Mason's?

[Skillet]

It's funny the way you guys attack anyone with a differing opinion or perspective- immediately dismissing any thought process other than your own as naive and misguided. Then, you're so quick to make accusations of name calling, while declaring yourselves to be the stewards of 'patriotism and family values'. The best part is the religious photographs next to names of the guys posting hateful rhetoric. So many of you love to suggest that this website should be for right wing extremists only- then, you like to make silly statements about the values that this country was founded upon. I've always found hypocrits to be fascinating- and these threads never disappoint.

Hi Virgil, Nice to see you again. I think you still have your panties in a knot over my thoughts on your views on gun control. Hateful rhetoric? About what? Islam? Damn right I hate it, no apologies there. As far as guys like you and Early, I don't think I've been too hateful. Traded insults with you, sure, but I don't hate you. I don't think I've pushed my religion on anyone. I have simply been honest and outspoken about MY faith. I don't apologize if that bothers you.

[Dave]

Dave, ever hear of The Free Mason's?

Yes, What's your point?

WHAT'S YOUR ANSWER?

A Mason is sometimes asked by a friend, a neighbor, or a business associate, "What do the Masons do?" The question may be worded more generally, "What are the Masons?"

In either case, the Brother is challenged by the realization that there is no simple answer which he can rattle off "from the top of his head," because the questioner is really asking him for a comprehensive explanation about what organized Freemasonry is, what its principles and purposes are, what programs it is engaged in, how it carries them out, and what satisfactions the individual Mason derives from his Masonic membership.

Some of these considerations arouse the fraternal doubt that "you can't tell that," or "that's secret," so that the Brother's reply is marked by hesitation or reluctance to explain.

Puzzled by the difficulty of knowing what facets of the vast subject of Freemasonry the questioner is really inquiring about, the Mason "just doesn't know where to begin, " and too often may avoid a simple statement of facts. He isn't sure of what to say.

Or, knowing that his questioner is a "practical man of affairs" who measures outcomes quantitatively, in materialistic terms, he realizes that Freemasonry's reputation cannot be explained by charts, statistics, or financial statements, because the Fraternity's real worth can be expressed only in spiritual terms, and that is rather difficult to explain to the uninitiated. Masonic terminology, the most comfortable words with which to reply, seems inadequate or out of place. Masonic "secrecy" gets in the way.

Embarrassment is probably the commonest cause of a Brother's difficulty in replying to the question. He is embarrassed because he realizes that he doesn't really know enough about the Fraternity to give a good simple reply. He knows that there is much more Masonic activity going on in other lodges all over the country and throughout the world, but he has never taken the time to experience some of it or to read about it with real interest. He hasn't given much thought to the subject. He never expected to be asked such a question by a non-Mason outside the lodge. Even though he has experienced Masonry, he has never tried to express in words just what Freemasonry means to himself.

A well-informed Brother, therefore, will prepare himself for the possibility of being asked such a question. Even though no one ever asks the question, he will have the confidence of knowing what Freemasonry means, especially to himself.

First of all, he will determine to give a Masonic answer, one which asserts the real nature of the Fraternity as a spiritual force, as "a way of life" which seeks to improve men morally and spiritually, by associating with other idealistic men who want to improve the quality of life around them by means of a brotherhood which emphasizes the Fatherhood of God.

In an age which derides ideals, absolutes, the concepts of law and order, and advocates relativism instead of standards of excellence, which angrily demands rights instead of responsibility, and which preaches a nihilistic doctrine of individualism (doing your own thing), Masons find it difficult to explain the Fraternity's idealism and its charitable and educational purposes. But it must be done. A Mason must give a Masonic answer to the question, "What are the Masons."

There are really so few "secrets" which a Mason is required to keep, and so much that he should be proud to proclaim to others, that his principal concern in answering questions is probably the doubt that he can give an adequate Masonic reply.

The esoteric parts of the ritual work, the grips and pass-words of the three degrees, these are really the only "secrets" which should be kept inviolate. Because it is impossible to communicate to the uninitiated the joys and satisfactions of brotherhood experienced in "the labors of the lodge," this too becomes a secret because it is inexpressible.

But there is so much that can be told about Freemasonry, about the particular lodge, about the individual Mason, that the real problem in answering the question, "What do the Masons do?" is to say only enough to satisfy the questioner without boring or distracting him.

He can point out that Freemasonry is an educational organization. By means of the ritualistic ceremonies and other educational programs, Masons learn and teach the truths of morality, justice, patriotism, and the necessity of brotherly love to achieve those universal ideals. Reverence for the Great Architect is inculcated because men are brothers only if they are related to God as the, sons of the Creator Father.

He can explain that Masonic meetings, while resembling the meetings of any organized society, have a distinctly Masonic character.. They are opened and closed with prayer. They are patriotic because the nation's flag is kept in an honored place in the lodge and properly saluted with the pledge of allegiance. They are opened and closed with Masonic ceremonies to remind the members of the principal purposes of the Fraternity, which are to develop brotherly love and respect for truth, not the truths of scientific facts or history, but the truths which guide a man to live happily and harmoniously with his fellow man.

For that reason Masonic meetings do not permit the introduction of discussions about sectarian religious differences or partisan political opinions. A Masonic lodge, if it is working seriously, teaches its members the principles involved in attaining a universal Brotherhood of Man under the Fatherhood of God.

A Mason is also free to explain that Freemasonry is a charitable organization, which acts to relieve the distress of local individuals who are victims of calamity, and that it has created programs and institutions to care for its needy senior citizens, or to provide scholarship aid for worthy and needy young people in college. Masonic Homes and Hospitals, Grand' Lodge Scholarship Programs, Charity Funds, and the Hospital Visitation Program of the Masonic Service Association are examples of such achievements.

Freemasonry is also, but not primarily, a social organization, which arranges special meetings to which are invited wives, children, neighbors and friends for the purposes of entertainment and sociability. Masons seek the pleasure of associating with other members of the community, hoping thereby to reveal the serious and idealistic nature of the Fraternity's objectives.

There is so much that a Mason can tell about his beloved Fraternity. But the way in which he tells it is more important than what he tells. When a Mason is conscious and proud of the moral and spiritual achievements he has made through Masonry, when he has been inspired to display the beauties of friendship, morality, and brotherly love, when he realizes that his own personal life is the most important evidence he can give to show what a Mason is, he usually finds it very easy to talk about the Fraternity to his non-Masonic friends. When he knows that his lodge is a spiritual force, when it is learning and teaching its members the universal ideals of the Craft, when it is actively promoting charitable programs and pursuing truth, he will tell what Freemasonry is with conviction and enthusiasm.

But he must know what he is talking about. This essay suggests only in general terms what he can talk about. He should be prepared to fill in the details. When he is convinced that he can supply those details, he is ready to answer the questions, "What do the Masons do?" and "What are the Masons?"

When he is asked the question he must then decide on how much or how little to say. A brief but adequate reply is advised, for if the questioner is not satisfied, he will undoubtedly ask for further information. The following answer is only a suggestion.

"Masons are men who voluntarily asked to join a lodge. They were accepted because they were good men who believe in God and hold high ethical and moral ideals. They go to meetings which they call the lodge, in order to learn and to teach what 'friendship, morality, and truth really involve, and to practice on a small scale the reality of brotherhood. They also have meetings open to their wives, children, and friends where they promote an understanding of the serious nature of the Fraternity by entertainment and sociability. Practical programs for charity and relief are planned and executed. The special kinship they feel for each other as a brotherhood is their deepest satisfaction."

Up to A Page About Freemasonry main page.

Last revised: 01/14/2010 02:39:05

[Skillet]

It's entirely possible to be a conservative without calling yourself a Christian. IMHO, it just so happens that many Christian views fall in line with the right wing way of thinking.

[virgil]

^{Skillet, please. I couldn't care less about how you feel about my beliefs on gun control or anything else, for that matter. And for the record, we haven't traded insults- I don't recall insulting you in any way.}

[Skillet]

^{Skillet, please. I couldn't care less about how you feel about my beliefs on gun control or anything else, for that matter. And for the record, we haven't traded insults- I don't recall insulting you in any way.}

So many libs, I get confused.

[wooffer]

Virgil, not sure how I distorted the definition. Can you explain? How else would one defend his country from enemies? Strong words and harsh retoric?

[Doewhacker]

Dave congrats on being able to cut and paste, I was just wondering if you infact do know anything about our country's history and who founded it, and so on. It seems as though you do not have a firm grasp on it. The Freemason's are largely responsible for founding this country and they are 100% for separation of Church and state, the Catholic Church does not like them. Its the 1st amendment for a reason....you know the one about Freedom of Religion ect.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Doewhacker

[Doewhacker]

Virgil, not sure how I distorted the definition. Can you explain? How else would one defend his country from enemies? Strong words and harsh retoric?

Maybe he should go post a link on 12 different threads like you did last night eh?

[virgil]

Definition of PATRIOT

: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests

This is the 'websters' version.

[wooffer]

I wouldn't mind if he had something informative to post. But to make a claim without backing it up has no merit.

[Dave]

Dave congrats on being able to cut and paste, I was just wondering if you infact do know anything about our country's history and who founded it, and so on. It seems as though you do not have a firm grasp on it. The Freemason's are largely responsible for founding this country and they are 100% for separation of Church and state, the Catholic Church does not like them. Its the 1st amendment for a reason....you know the one about Freedom of Religion ect.

Doe, first I don't know where you are going with this, again what's the point. And how do you know what I have a grasp on . I never mentioned the Catholic church, and what does this have to do with a post what was previously posted. You are starting to scare me, getting like Virgil .

[wooffer]

According to that definition Virgil none of the Founding Fathers or anyone who fought in this nations Revolution were Patriots. Since they didn't support England, their country at the time.

[Doewhacker]

Doe, first I don't know where you are going with this, again what's the point. And how do you know what I have a grasp on . I never mentioned the Catholic church, and what does this have to do with a post what was previously posted. You are starting to scare me, getting like Virgil .

Come on Dave don't make me angry here....you said that this country was founded on a basis of religion when in fact it was founded on separation of church and state. Were the founding fathers religious, sure, are todays politicians also, sure atleast outwardly anyway. The point is religion and politics do not mix, which is partly what the Freemason's are about..its about a foundation that can be built upon. No matter if its home life or a country or even a school. Wouldn't you guys be up in arms if there were an Arabic written prayer on the walls of a school?

[Doewhacker]

I wouldn't mind if he had something informative to post. But to make a claim without backing it up has no merit.

Then it would only be an opinion wouldn't it? I see lot's of them on here daily, if you don't like an opinion don't read it.

[Dave]

Come on Dave don't make me angry here....you said that this country was founded on a basis of religion when in fact it was founded on separation of church and state. Were the founding fathers religious, sure, are todays politicians also, sure atleast outwardly anyway. The point is religion and politics do not mix, which is partly what the Freemason's are about..its about a foundation that can be built upon. No matter if its home life or a country or even a school. Wouldn't you guys be up in arms if there were an Arabic written prayer on the walls of a school?

First you mis quoted me again ,I said it was bases on Christian values, Never mentioned religion.

Do you think you would ever see a christian prayer on a wall of a school in Iran? If so what would happen to the people who put it there. But even if a Arabic prayer were put in one of our schools we would probably do nothing. Wouldn't offend the Arab community.

More Freemason cutting and Pasting for you Doe, just to keep you updated. Doe, please don't get angry not good for your BP

Freemasons among the U.S. Founding Fathers

Some people something think that almost all the Founding Fathers were Freemasons, and others that very few were. On the following websites you can find information about which of the Founding Fathers, signers of the Declaration of Independence, signers of the Constitution, and Generals in the Continental Army under Washington, were Masons.

Signers of the Declaration of Independence who were Freemasons

Signers of the U.S. Constitution who were Freemasons

Generals in the Continental Army under George Washington who were Freemasons

In summary: Category Total Number Involved Number & Percent Who Were Freemasons Signers of the Declaration of Independence 56 9 -- 16% Signers of the U.S. Constitution 39 13 -- 33% Generals in the Continental Army 74 33 -- 46%

Copyright © 1998-2012 by Paul M. Bessel - all rights reserved

Edited January 18, 2012 by Dave

[virgil]

According to that definition Virgil none of the Founding Fathers or anyone who fought in this nations Revolution were Patriots. Since they didn't support England, their country at the time.

Are you for real? They were patriotic in regards to the country that they were fighting to establish. England was the country that they were fighting against. I'm sure that the British considered them to be traitors. So, in this case, one nation's traitor is another nation's patriot.

[wooffer]

This country was founded on the basis of religion. The people who came here wanted the freedom to practice their religious beliefs. Not be forced to practice the Kings religion. I don't care what religion people practice and have studied many of them. Please don't confuse Islam with a religion. It is an ideology not a theology. Study it yourslef and you will understand.

[Doewhacker]

According to that definition Virgil none of the Founding Fathers or anyone who fought in this nations Revolution were Patriots. Since they didn't support England, their country at the time.

Are you for real? They were patriotic in regards to the country that they were fighting to establish. England was the country that they were fighting against. I'm sure that the British considered them to be traitors. So, in this case, one nation's traitor is another nation's patriot.

Some might even call the founding fathers...free thinkers!

[virgil]

Some might even call the founding fathers...free thinkers!

Bite your tongue!!!

[Doewhacker]

. Do you think you would ever see a christian prayer on a wall of a school in Iran? If so what would happen to the people who put it there. But even if a Arabic prayer were put in one of our schools we would probably do nothing. Wouldn't offend the Arab community.

No because that country isnt about freedom like ours is, obviously.

[wooffer]

Make up your mind, do you want to use your definition or not? It seems you agree with me and just stated so, thanks. Other than that your justification is not there, they were fighting for a nation that didn't exist yet? Wow, talk about taking poetic license.

I don't see any mention of "fighting to establish" in your definition. I would say it is you, not I who is twisting a definition to make a point.

Definition of PATRIOT

: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests

This is the 'websters' version.

According to that definition Virgil none of the Founding Fathers or anyone who fought in this nations Revolution were Patriots. Since they didn't support England, their country at the time.

Are you for real? They were patriotic in regards to the country that they were fighting to establish. England was the country that they were fighting against. I'm sure that the British considered them to be traitors. So, in this case, one nation's traitor is another nation's patriot.

Edited January 18, 2012 by wooffer

[Doewhacker]

Some might even call the founding fathers...free thinkers! Bite your tongue!!!

lol I really think if some of these fellas were around then they would have stood with the British to remain patriotic. (Thats a joke guys)

[wooffer]

Yep, definitely a couple of loyalists on here. They just don't know it.