What is this country coming to??

[nyantler]

Culvercreek,

If the statement of hostility of God's mention towards me, I would tell you that I am not hostile towards the man, but the fact that this country was supposed to have been found on the principles of seperate church and state, yet we see the "In God We Trust" everywhere, is somewhat confusing.

The country WAS NOT FOUNDED on the principles of "church and state"... FREEDOM is what the first amendment is about not separation... this country was founded on freedom.. freedom from oppression by a tyranic government... the whole revolution is about freedom... the entire Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights is all about freedom... you have the right not to say the pledge if you don't want to.. or use the term God... but you do not have the right to take away the majorities freedom to say it.

It has gotten to the point where if one person isn't ok with something.. everyone else loses their freedom to do or say it.

[nyantler]

Good for you, now try to re-read what I stated about the pledge and what I disliked about it.

"I sure am glad they got rid of that pledge of allegence song from public schools. I thought that was a violation of my first ammendment rights."

After you said this.. nothing else mattered... you can't run from that statement... or are you saying you didn't mean to say this?

[shawnhu]

nyantler, with all due respect, your narrowmindedness is exactly what this nation does not need right now. I am not running away from any statements I've made, but I have elaborated on that statement you've quoted as to why I made that statement. I'm sure you saw it, maybe even read it. But your narrowmindedness kept you from understanding it. So let me say it again.

I was forced to pledge to something I do not believe it, I felt it was a violation of my rights. I think a few would agree with me on that. I'm glad they no longer require that pledge in schools anymore, because there may be others out there that felt violated as well. I'm fine with it being sung, and people making their pledge, just don't make me do it, because I do not believe.

So what's your beef?

[nyantler]

I agree Shawnhu that it should not be mandatory to have to say the pledge... and I believe according to the law it can not be made mandatory.. even in school... and I can't believe that standing and not saying it was not an option... and for the record I'm pretty sure I don't "represent a lot of guys on here"... I'm even more sure that many of the guys would take great offense to you saying that "I" represent them.. right fellas???

[shawnhu]

nyantler,

Ok, you got me, I take that statement back

But I have been met with some unpleasant remarks here based on a statement similar to this one, and was flamed upon. I just think some folks here jump the gun(no pun intended) the moment they see something they don't want to hear.

[nyantler]

nyantler, with all due respect, your narrowmindedness is exactly what this nation does not need right now. I am not running away from any statements I've made, but I have elaborated on that statement you've quoted as to why I made that statement. I'm sure you saw it, maybe even read it. But your narrowmindedness kept you from understanding it. So let me say it again.

I was forced to pledge to something I do not believe it, I felt it was a violation of my rights. I think a few would agree with me on that. I'm glad they no longer require that pledge in schools anymore, because there may be others out there that felt violated as well. I'm fine with it being sung, and people making their pledge, just don't make me do it, because I do not believe.

So what's your beef?

Ok truthfully my real beef is that you are waffling back and forth about it with no real conviction... you like it .. you don't like it.. it's ok... it's not ok.. you're all over the map... Nobody forced you to do anything... thats just how you saw it... If I was in your shoes and believed so strongly about not saying the pledge .. I wouldn't... and nobody could make me... if I let them force me.. then I guess I really didn't believe as strongly about it as I thought and was just be trying to get attention... or I just wasn't a strong enough person inside to be able to stnd up for what I believed in.. especially when my 1st amendment rights were being violated.

I like being narrow minded... I don't get as confused as someone like you that has such a broad concept of things that you can't get it all straight in your head. I like black and white.. gray is for lost souls that still haven't found their way..

[shawnhu]

nyantler,

I wouldn't say that I was confused, but you may be correct that I wasn't strong enough to stand up for my beliefs. I was raised not to cause a ruckus, to stay under the radar. This happened when I was in grade school, at the age of 5-11. At that time, I didn't really form an oppinion of anything, I didn't know many back then that did. Now that I understand what was going on back then, I wouldn't stand for it if it was my kids that was forced to do such a thing. And yes, everyone was forced to pledge, those that lipped it would get slack for it later on in their respective classrooms. There was no choice in the matter. Sorry you feel the way you do regarding my wavering, but it's pretty clear up here in my noodles.

[Early]

Shawn, you are correct: There are those on here who do "jump the gun" in defense of their own personal beliefs which they would have us all subscribe to. To promote their beliefs, they use the "holier than thou" approach: They know God; they know what God intends for us. Any of us who are not receptive are the bad guys.

I have long felt that it is not necessary for me to wear my heart...or my politics...or my religion on my sleeve. I need not stand and recite the Pledge to be a real patriot...nor sing the national anthem. Those who wish to do so have my sincere respect...as long as they do not claim superiority over me.

America has been moving toward multi-culturalism for years. We Americans are a tolerant people (except for those "holier than thous" that think they know what God wants. Hmmm....have they asked her?). If we did not want to arrive at this point, we should have torn down the Statue of Liberty years ago, and instead erected a "Welcome, Christians only" monument.

I am content to live and let live. The hard core right wing Christians are not! They are far from it. It has been the practice of Christians over time to kill all those whom they cannot convert. To read some of the responses here...nothing has changed.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Ok truthfully my real beef is that you are waffling back and forth about it with no real conviction... you like it .. you don't like it.. it's ok... it's not ok.. you're all over the map... Nobody forced you to do anything... thats just how you saw it... If I was in your shoes and believed so strongly about not saying the pledge .. I wouldn't... and nobody could make me... if I let them force me.. then I guess I really didn't believe as strongly about it as I thought and was just be trying to get attention... or I just wasn't a strong enough person inside to be able to stnd up for what I believed in.. especially when my 1st amendment rights were being violated.

I like being narrow minded... I don't get as confused as someone like you that has such a broad concept of things that you can't get it all straight in your head. I like black and white.. gray is for lost souls that still haven't found their way..

I do have to disagree with you on this. We are talking about kids here. I don't think many of them are developed and wish that kind of confrontation. As adults we can make these statements on our developed beliefs. Much like my neice. I would love to see someone try to tell me I couldn't wear a cross if I fetlt like it.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Shawn, you are correct: There are those on here who do "jump the gun" in defense of their own personal beliefs which they would have us all subscribe to. To promote their beliefs, they use the "holier than thou" approach: They know God; they know what God intends for us. Any of us who are not receptive are the bad guys.

I have long felt that it is not necessary for me to wear my heart...or my politics...or my religion on my sleeve. I need not stand and recite the Pledge to be a real patriot...nor sing the national anthem. Those who wish to do so have my sincere respect...as long as they do not claim superiority over me.

America has been moving toward multi-culturalism for years. We Americans are a tolerant people (except for those "holier than thous" that think they know what God wants. Hmmm....have they asked her?). If we did not want to arrive at this point, we should have torn down the Statue of Liberty years ago, and instead erected a "Welcome, Christians only" monument.

I am content to live and let live. The hard core right wing Christians are not! They are far from it. It has been the practice of Christians over time to kill all those whom they cannot convert. To read some of the responses here...nothing has changed.

Oh Early. get over yourself. Kill those that can not be converted...come on. are we talking about the crusades or are we taling about modern day. Seems to me that Islam has more of that approach in terms of today.

You want to throw out mulit cultural bs too. Let's look at it. Immigrants did come over by the boat load. they contributed to society and assimilated into it. They did not expect the society they were joining to change to their way of thinking. That is what goes on today. ---no need to learn English we will print everything in a dozen languages. That is many modern day immigrants.

You keep talking about all those that are hollier than thou. Get a little bit thicker skin. I sounds as if you have self image issues if you feel that someones opinion even if different than yours will effect you. They aren't passing laws saying you have to publically worship. You seem to really take offense to the Christian right. Just like any segment there are fringe groups that are WAY OUT THERE. You really can't judge them all based on them. I have friends that are liberals and woulnd't spell GOD if it ws their last move in a scrabble game. But they don't try to pry the bible out of anyones hands. There are not the wacky fringe left. There are always going to be nut cases and that isn't limited to any view. seems every postion has a group of nuts that don't speak for the majority of that view.

[Early]

Culver Creek...You are a nut case! You cannot argue intelligently, you just attack, however stupidly. Whatever happened to the "pray behind closed doors" stuff. Sheesh....shut up, for GOD's sake!

[shawnhu]

Culvercreek,

You're right. Too often people judge an entire group, ethnicity, or population based on the few encounters that they have, or by hearsay. There's always exceptions, and I enjoy finding them.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I was forced to pledge to something I do not believe it, I felt it was a violation of my rights. I think a few would agree with me on that. I'm glad they no longer require that pledge in schools anymore, because there may be others out there that felt violated as well. I'm fine with it being sung, and people making their pledge, just don't make me do it, because I do not believe.

Just so I understand and I am not trying to put words in your mouth. You are saying that you were forced to pledge to something you did not believe. You do understand that the pledge is not pledging to God, Right?

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

It is actually pledging to the republic. it states the republic is under God and indivisible and has liberty and justices for all. But the pledge is to the Republic.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Culver Creek...You are a nut case! You cannot argue intelligently, you just attack, however stupidly. Whatever happened to the "pray behind closed doors" stuff. Sheesh....shut up, for GOD's sake!

Why does it have be behind closed doors. Because YOU don't like it? I have tried to engage you in an intelligent debate and you will have none of it. You are the one that attacks and contributes nothing to a conversation. You really are full of your self. Now come here and join hands and I will lead you in a prayer

[Early]

Like I said...."NUT CASE"

[nyantler]

I do have to disagree with you on this. We are talking about kids here. I don't think many of them are developed and wish that kind of confrontation. As adults we can make these statements on our developed beliefs. Much like my neice. I would love to see someone try to tell me I couldn't wear a cross if I fetlt like it.

Yeah I did jump the gun.. but he was talking like he was in HS and all this just happened.. Sorry Shawnhu.. I would have to agree that as a very young kid these things can be intimidating.. I still am not apologizing for my believe in saying the pledge...but I do apologize for missing your point.

[nyantler]

Culver Creek...You are a nut case! You cannot argue intelligently, you just attack, however stupidly. Whatever happened to the "pray behind closed doors" stuff. Sheesh....shut up, for GOD's sake!

I think he argued so intelligently that you are having trouble understanding..lol and we don't have to pray behind closed doors.. thats what the first amendment is all about.. I think it was because thats what people had to do in King George's Kingdom... kind of what we were revolting against back then. So much for intelligent arguments... NEXT!

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Like I said...."NUT CASE"

Well why don't you set me straight? Contribute something. We have heard how much you are against those that display their faith in public and those wacky Christian Right folks. Enlighten us. What are you for? What does Early stand for?

[shawnhu]

Yeah I did jump the gun.. but he was talking like he was in HS and all this just happened.. Sorry Shawnhu.. I would have to agree that as a very young kid these things can be intimidating.. I still am not apologizing for my believe in saying the pledge...but I do apologize for missing your point.

I agree, and apology accepted. Let's keep the intellegent discussion going.

[nyantler]

"America has been moving toward multi-culturalism for years. We Americans are a tolerant people (except for those "holier than thous" that think they know what God wants. Hmmm....have they asked her?). If we did not want to arrive at this point, we should have torn down the Statue of Liberty years ago, and instead erected a "Welcome, Christians only" monument."

What you liberals call multi-culturalism is code for globalism... and has nothing to do with immigrants... American born liberals, who don't understand history and why America became the place that immigrants wanted to come, like the government run entitlement society model... where if you cry loud enough the government will give you what ever you want to keep you happy. Sure you can throw the Illegal imigrants into the mix with the liberals... they have no snse of right and wrong either...True immigrants have much more appreciation for the American way than most native born americans that don't know what its like to live under the thumb of a regime and be given the freedoms of America... we can be a group of multi cultural people without taking away the freedoms that our forefathers gave us... culvers niece should be able to wear a cross around her neck without being pursecuted for having a relious belief... Christians have no problem with other faiths celebrating their faith in public.. our problem is people like you thinking Christians (which most Americans are) don't have the right to do the same...

God, according to the bible, is a "man". Man was created from Gods image...Women were created after man by God so that man would have company here on earth... the whole God is woman thing is another radical liberal way of getting attention... grow up Mr. Tolerance! and Yes we know what God wants.. he tells us what he wants all throughout the bible... all you have to do is believe...

[Deerthug]

Ten pages on this topic, I mean come on already. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and belief as to whether there is a God or not and whether it has any place in public places. But to resort to name calling and insults just shows how bad our society has become and why we are so frowned upon by foreigners. Just my humble opinion.

My only reason for starting this OP was to illustrate a point about inequality between various ethnic and religious backgrounds that exist in this country and how the laws which are supposed to be applied equally under our constitution are really not.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Ny...I think it is Ms. Intolerant

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Deerthug. How poorly are we thought of if many are trying to get here? That almost rings to that global view. I really don't care what they think of us

I think those disgruntled with the US have that based in their jealousy of us

[nyantler]

Ten pages on this topic, I mean come on already. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and belief as to whether there is a God or not and whether it has any place in public places. But to resort to name calling and insults just shows how bad our society has become and why we are so frowned upon by foreigners. Just my humble opinion.

My only reason for starting this OP was to illustrate a point about inequality between various ethnic and religious backgrounds that exist in this country and how the laws which are supposed to be applied equally under our constitution are really not.

Ten pages is good... and the liberals aren't foreigners... yet..lol

[Grouse]

God has not abandoned America. America has abandoned God. I believe that's why America has most of the problems that it has today.

The Christians in America are trying to preserve what has historically worked in this country. The Progressives are trying to force an untested experiment on this country. I don't think they have earned the right to say they have something better to offer, so they simply attack what they find makes them uncomfortable. Religion doesn't allow things like drugs, abortion, free love, homosexuality, same sex marriage, etc., etc. So it's no surprise people who don't object to those things would object to religion. To quote a wise observation, "When anything goes, eventually the country will go."