Online Archery course approved indefinitely

[mowin]

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/outdoors/2021/01/dec-decides-to-offer-totally-online-hunter-bowhunter-safety-courses-indefinitely.html

[mowin]

Wondering if they will eventually do the same for the general hunting course.  

[grampy]

Saw this coming when DEC made online courses "temporary" last year. And the numbers represent more licences being sold, and more money for the state. A no brainer decision actually. It is also a much more convenient way of getting a hunter certification for most folks. The online course covers almost identically, what we covered in the in person classes. Most all Junior hunters already had a mentor, much more capable than an instructor. As it should be!

But.....in every class we would always have questions not asked in the online course. Usually about ethics grey areas, or a hands on firearms safety correction. You see, not all who came had a mentor, or anyone close in the family who hunted, or had experience with a firearm or bow. Our live fire, was always one of the most rewarding aspects of the course for students AND instructors alike. And I always spent extra time during breaks and after the course, on the archery range with new shooters. Helping them with their bows, and or shooting form basics. 

DEC sent all instructors information about doing in person classes for anyone, who would like a more hands on learning experience. No matter if they already passed a course, or not. Just to get that little extra bit, that some may want or need. 

Be it as a NYS certified instructor, a friend, or mentor. I will always do what I can to help a new hunter get a safe start to hunting. It is only just my way of giving back to what I have loved my whole life. And when the ones I help, help others, the circle is completed.

 

 

[steve863]

7 minutes ago, mowin said:

Wondering if they will eventually do the same for the general hunting course.  

According to this link it doesn't sound like they are getting rid of the general hunting online course.  They say that in-person courses will start again in the Spring of 2021 but they don't say that the online will go away.  The DEC is good at double talk so who knows what the plan really is??

 

https://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/92267.html

[mowin]

20 minutes ago, grampy said:

Saw this coming when DEC made online courses "temporary" last year. And the numbers represent more licences being sold, and more money for the state. A no brainer decision actually. It is also a much more convenient way of getting a hunter certification for most folks. The online course covers almost identically, what we covered in the in person classes. Most all Junior hunters already had a mentor, much more capable than an instructor. As it should be!

But.....in every class we would always have questions not asked in the online course. Usually about ethics grey areas, or a hands on firearms safety correction. You see, not all who came had a mentor, or anyone close in the family who hunted, or had experience with a firearm or bow. Our live fire, was always one of the most rewarding aspects of the course for students AND instructors alike. And I always spent extra time during breaks and after the course, on the archery range with new shooters. Helping them with their bows, and or shooting form basics. 

DEC sent all instructors information about doing in person classes for anyone, who would like a more hands on learning experience. No matter if they already passed a course, or not. Just to get that little extra bit, that some may want or need. 

Be it as a NYS certified instructor, a friend, or mentor. I will always do what I can to help a new hunter get a safe start to hunting. It is only just my way of giving back to what I have loved my whole life. And when the ones I help, help others, the circle is completed.

 

 

The issues I have are i personally know several who's "wives" have taken the course, but the husband took the course for them so he could use her tags. The wives have zero interest in hunting and never would have sat through a course.   Also know several kids who want to hunt, but dad took it because he believes he can teach them better, and kids has better things to do.  In some cases, the dad probably can, but not necessarily.  

My niece is going to take the online course. She asked me if I would sit with her, and I said yes. But I also told her, I'll steer her in the right direction, but will not give her the answer.  

[grampy]

35 minutes ago, mowin said:

Wondering if they will eventually do the same for the general hunting course.  

From what I am hearing from the DEC, ALL courses will have the option of being online.

[DoubleDose]

7 minutes ago, grampy said:

From what I am hearing from the DEC, ALL courses will have the option of being online.

This is a good thing.  When my son came of hunter age I had a hell of a time finding a course and then one that was not already booked.  IMO, these courses were a bottleneck to license sales $$$, and probably the driving force for going online.  I do not believe for one second this is primarily to facilitate hunting in NYS, that is a secondary benefit.

[steve863]

14 minutes ago, mowin said:

The issues I have are i personally know several who's "wives" have taken the course, but the husband took the course for them so he could use her tags. The wives have zero interest in hunting and never would have sat through a course.   

 This is absolutely true.  I would bet the majority of the time the online course was taken was to get the extra tags for someone else and not because that person really wants to hunt.  I don't think this matters to the DEC one bit.  They are making more money with the online course and with the more licenses that will get sold so all is fine in their eyes.

 

 

 

[rob-c]

17 minutes ago, grampy said:

From what I am hearing from the DEC, ALL courses will have the option of being online.

I don’t agree with this, to me online shouldn’t be offered anymore. I remember sitting through the course with my youngest  son 12 years ago and learning a few things from the instructor myself. Online may be covenant,  but nothing is better than in person learning especially from a good intelligent instructor. 

Edited January 28, 2021 by rob-c

[mowin]

14 minutes ago, rob-c said:

I don’t agree with this, to me online shouldn’t be offered anymore. I remember sitting through the course with my youngest  son 12 years ago and learning a few things from the instructor myself. Online may be covenant,  but nothing is better than in person learning especially from a good intelligent instructor. 

I see both sides of the argument for and against online course.  The hands on is good for the kids.  I also know many people who couldn't get their kids a course because there are so few givin, and they fill up very fast. 

[Marion]

I say keep online but you could also require an in person range test. That should be far easier to manage than a whole course in person. Can get many more people signed off in one day than you could with the classroom size limitations

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[DoubleDose]

31 minutes ago, mowin said:

The issues I have are i personally know several who's "wives" have taken the course, but the husband took the course for them so he could use her tags. The wives have zero interest in hunting and never would have sat through a course.   Also know several kids who want to hunt, but dad took it because he believes he can teach them better, and kids has better things to do.  In some cases, the dad probably can, but not necessarily.  

My niece is going to take the online course. She asked me if I would sit with her, and I said yes. But I also told her, I'll steer her in the right direction, but will not give her the answer.  

 

16 minutes ago, steve863 said:

 This is absolutely true.  I would bet the majority of the time the online course was taken was to get the extra tags for someone else and not because that person really wants to hunt.  I don't think this matters to the DEC one bit.  They are making more money with the online course and with the more licenses that will get sold so all is fine in their eyes.

 

 

 

Cheaters are going to cheat no matter what the system or process is.  Using family and friends for extra tags is not something new and will never be stopped (see first sentence).  The DEC rules and processes should be for the benefit of honest law abiding hunters (the majority) and not the minority of cheaters.  

[mowin]

1 minute ago, DoubleDose said:

 

Cheaters are going to cheat no matter what the system or process is.  Using family and friends for extra tags is not something new and will never be stopped (see first sentence).  The DEC rules and processes should be for the benefit of honest law abiding hunters (the majority) and not the minority of cheaters.  

I agree, there will always be cheaters. But the online course makes it so easy.  Wives that would no way in hell spend a weekend taking a in person course, or a online course, don't have to. Their husband's take it online for them. 

[crappyice]

If courses and the resources for the courses were readily available then absolutely the in-person course would be better.


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[DoubleDose]

1 minute ago, mowin said:

I agree, there will always be cheaters. But the online course makes it so easy.  Wives that would no way in hell spend a weekend taking a in person course, or a online course, don't have to. Their husband's take it online for them. 

So the answer is don't make it easier for the majority of law abiding hunters because it also makes it easier for the minority of cheaters?  Not a good strategy, IMO.

[Fletch]

I think the hands on classes are certainly better. I do see the current Covid need for online though.

I saw two comments that interested me. Someone said Online is fine but test marksmanship live. I have been to multiple classes, bow, regular and out of all of them only on my regular 40 years ago was anyone required to shoot. So is that even a requirement of the live classes?

 

Another was online people would cheat to get extra tags. While I am sure it happens, but in these days of so many tags we can all get 9 minimum in the southern zone. Is it really that much of a thing anymore?

[mowin]

16 minutes ago, DoubleDose said:

So the answer is don't make it easier for the majority of law abiding hunters because it also makes it easier for the minority of cheaters?  Not a good strategy, IMO.

And like I mentioned,  I see both sides.  In person courses fill up fast and are few and far between. 

[mowin]

7 minutes ago, Fletch said:

I think the hands on classes are certainly better. I do see the current Covid need for online though.

I saw two comments that interested me. Someone said Online is fine but test marksmanship live. I have been to multiple classes, bow, regular and out of all of them only on my regular 40 years ago was anyone required to shoot. So is that even a requirement of the live classes?

 

Another was online people would cheat to get extra tags. While I am sure it happens, but in these days of so many tags we can all get 9 minimum in the southern zone. Is it really that much of a thing anymore?

Yes it is.  While we can get 7 total tags, its the buck tags that the guys I know are after.  

[steve863]

18 minutes ago, Fletch said:

I think the hands on classes are certainly better. I do see the current Covid need for online though.

I saw two comments that interested me. Someone said Online is fine but test marksmanship live. I have been to multiple classes, bow, regular and out of all of them only on my regular 40 years ago was anyone required to shoot. So is that even a requirement of the live classes?

 

 

 

I sat in on the course my son took two summers ago and there was NO shooting whatsoever.  None of the students even touched a gun.  There were two instructors and honestly they were terrible.  My daughter took the online course this summer and she absolutely learned more going page by page online along with the numerous videos they make you watch than she would have if those two clowns were teaching the class.

 

 

[grampy]

1 hour ago, steve863 said:

 

I sat in on the course my son took two summers ago and there was NO shooting whatsoever.  None of the students even touched a gun.  There were two instructors and honestly they were terrible.  My daughter took the online course this summer and she absolutely learned more going page by page online along with the numerous videos they make you watch than she would have if those two clowns were teaching the class.

 

 

Depending on where the class is given, there may not be a safe place for live fire instruction. DEC regional offices must approve ANY location, where a class will be held. Someone can no longer just say, "I want to have a class in my garage"! The location must always be vetted first by DEC. We do ours at a Sportsmen's Club, as are the vast majority of classes given now days. We have both indoor and outdoor ranges available on site. But, live fire is NOT required by DEC to complete the course! But, highly encouraged where possible. Also, the use of 'inert' firearms, and ammunition, (provided by the DEC) IS required in every class!!  To at least show the different actions ie... bolt, lever. pump, semi auto, and single, and how they operate. Not to mention to use for demonstrating safe handling techniques. By instructors and from students. This is required in every class.

Not sure where these instructors were from, but they did NOT follow DEC mandated curriculum, for giving a hunter education class.

Edited January 28, 2021 by grampy

[DoubleDose]

5 minutes ago, grampy said:

Depending on where the class is given, there may not be a safe place for live fire instruction. DEC regional offices must approve ANY location, where a class will be held. Someone can no longer just say, "I want to have a class in my garage"! The location must always be vetted first by DEC. We do ours at a Sportsmen's Club, as are the vast majority of classes given now days. We have both indoor and outdoor ranges available on site. But, live fire is NOT required by DEC to complete the course! But, highly encouraged where possible. Also, the use of inert firearms (provided by the DEC) IS required in every class!!  To at least show the different actions ie... bolt, lever. pump, semi auto, and single, and how they operate. Not to mention to use for demonstrating safe handling techniques. By instructors and from students. This is required in every class.

Not sure where these instructors were from, but they did NOT follow DEC mandated curriculum, for giving a hunter education class.

Completely agree.  Down state, 5 boroughs & LI, shooting facilities are few and far between.  We need to be careful with mission creep here.  It is a hunter safety course.  It is not a hunting course.  It is not a firearms education course.  It is not a shooting qualification course.  

[steve863]

4 minutes ago, grampy said:

Depending on where the class is given, there may not be a safe place for live fire instruction. DEC regional offices must approve ANY location, where a class will be held. Someone can no longer just say, "I want to have a class in my garage"! The location must always be vetted first by DEC. We do ours at a Sportsmen's Club, as are the vast majority of classes given now days. We have both indoor and outdoor ranges available on site. But, live fire is NOT required by DEC to complete the course! But, highly encouraged where possible. Also, the use of inert firearms (provided by the DEC) IS required in every class!!  To at least show the different actions ie... bolt, lever. pump, semi auto, and single, and how they operate. Not to mention to use for demonstrating safe handling techniques. By instructors and from students. This is required in every class.

Not sure where these instructors were from, but they did NOT follow DEC mandated curriculum, for giving a hunter education class.

 

The course was given on Long Island in an indoor shooting range.  One of the instructors did show a few of his own firearms with different action types, but none of the students touched or handled any gun real or fake.

 

 

[SilentStalker]

There is nothing better than in-person training (if done by the right qualified people) for firearms safety.  If given the choice, I would rather have a required in-person firearms safety course than an in-person hunter course. I know firearms safety is a large part of the hunter course, but there is much to be learned when handling a firearm, especially to someone who has never even seen one.

 

 

[Vince1]

i like in person myself.

but my son did his this year but he had me to explain things. 

 

i see how it can be abused though. 

[Nomad]

I Iike online for the ease of things . I wouldn’t  mind a brief hands on for gun safety , which can be done anywhere , no need to shoot, they don’t need to be “ marksmen “ just know the four rules , and demonstrate them by handling a gun correctly .

Back in the ‘70s, they took us outside in small groups, we picked up a bolt action .22 and went to the line ,where presumably they’d hand you some ammo and you’d shoot . They’d ask if you had checked the gun to see if it was loaded , then when you opened the bolt a spent shell would pop out ! Opps guess you didn’t check that gun, upon picking it up . 
 

Things like that, not muzzle sweeping others , keeping your bugger hook off the bang switch is what you test for .

Edited January 28, 2021 by Nomad