Footings for a small barn / shed

[UpStateRedNeck]

I hate, hate, hate digging.  Done it too many times, not hand digging unless I don't have any other choice.  Going to need 6 holes for a small pole barn this year.  

What's the easiest way to get this nonsense done?  Rent something?

[mowin]

Depending on how rocky your area is, a tow behind power auger might work.  Or a toro dingo with auger has down pressure.  From there a skid steer might be needed.

In my area, I rent a mini excavator and dig the holes too many rocks, large ones.

[Berniez]

I hate, hate, hate digging.

Home Depot and rent a small tractor w backhoe attachment or hire somebody.... now that's fast and easy and if you're over 55 it's reduces your risk of a heart attack. .....that makes it fast cheap and you'll   be alive to enjoy the barn. 

 

[Jeremy K]

2 hours ago, UpStateRedNeck said:

I hate, hate, hate digging.  Done it too many times, not hand digging unless I don't have any other choice.  Going to need 6 holes for a small pole barn this year.  

What's the easiest way to get this nonsense done?  Rent something?

Something or someone , hire somebody to dig 6 holes if you hate it that much

[mowin]

I had 35 post holes to dig at my place last summer.  Tried my tractor with 3pt auger with dismal results. Rented a toro dingo and that resulted in failure because the auger kept going to one side or another because or rocks, and basically had to hand dig to get the whole in the proper spot.  Took that back and picked up a 5000lb mini Ex.  Had the holes dug in half a day. Biggest downside to this method is your hole is huge, and it takes longer to set the post and back fill/tamp to get the post solid. 

[Moho81]

A lot of the times you can find a guy with the equipment to do the holes for you for not much more than it would cost to rent the equipment and do it yourself. 

[mlammerhirt]

Like others have said.....rocks are a freaking nightmare when it comes to trenching or using a post hole digger. If you think you basically rock free....rent a two man auger and you can blow through 6 holes in 45 minutes....with rest time built in!

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[grampy]

With the amount of rocks we have on the farm, a backhoe is the only way to dig anything. Digging by hand is just a recipe for much frustration.

[UpStateRedNeck]

35 minutes ago, grampy said:

With the amount of rocks we have on the farm, a backhoe is the only way to dig anything. Digging by hand is just a recipe for much frustration.

On the nose.  We're at about the same elevation, both in the helderbergs.  This is why I have digging hatred.  I know how many rocks I'll hit on my way down to 40" depth.  Think a skid steer with the post hole digger would get it done?  

 

I'm a little torn on what to put up.  Realistically I'd like to have about 2 tractors worth of room in it, so I can put my quad, the plotting machine, seed spreader, roller in one bay, and the old tractor (eventually with a new-er tractor) in the other.  There's a nicely drained grassy spot about 30 feet from the cabin that would work.  Maybe something like the picture, and use some of the hemlock off my property thats supposed to be coming off soon.

 

[grampy]

27 minutes ago, UpStateRedNeck said:

On the nose.  We're at about the same elevation, both in the helderbergs.  This is why I have digging hatred.  I know how many rocks I'll hit on my way down to 40" depth.  Think a skid steer with the post hole digger would get it done?  

 

I'm a little torn on what to put up.  Realistically I'd like to have about 2 tractors worth of room in it, so I can put my quad, the plotting machine, seed spreader, roller in one bay, and the old tractor (eventually with a new-er tractor) in the other.  There's a nicely drained grassy spot about 30 feet from the cabin that would work.  Maybe something like the picture, and use some of the hemlock off my property thats supposed to be coming off soon.

 

As you know, the BIG rocks we have up in the Helderbergs make the post hole diggers not so good either. Unless you get VERY lucky and don't hit one where you need to have a post. So just digging the holes with a backhoe is usually the best option. My hunting partner has a new Mahindra that he may do some local work with? I could ask for you??

[Farflung]

Here's a thought. Many counties and towns in NY allow sheds on skids without being considered real property (hence no jump in taxes and no need to a building permit.) Check and you may be pleasantly surprised. Our limit is less than 120 square feet. We have 2 (a she-shed and a he-hovel). Both of ours are  commercial ones. The last one cost $3000 but I just got in under a price increase. I put mine up on a gravel pad and  set it on 4 inch concrete blocks for better air flow. Amish  build them all the time around here. If you go this route, make sure you get pressure treated skids, joists and flooring plywood. Amish like to  use all Amish, rough- cut hemlock which is fine except for the items mentioned above. Last year finding pressure treated "real" plywood and framing elements was difficult to find and real expensive. This year is gong to be worse. Either way, if you are going to need rough cut, some of the small mills around here are booked until September-October.

[GreenDrake]

Another option, if you have plans for a concrete floor, is a monolithic slab and build up from there. You can then frame it with dimension lumber and save considerably on the costs of treated posts, etc.

[Gobbler Chaser]

Screw it and dig down a foot or even a bit less, pour concrete and set a short cut piece of Sono Tube on top. Build on it and if over the years she heaves just jack and shim as needed. Better off not upsetting ground, just put your footings right on top and dig a bit to prevent lateral movement. Especially for a small building like your doing. What's the sense in digging to prevent winter heaves unless you going down 4 feet on every hole anyway.

 

[mowin]

2 hours ago, UpStateRedNeck said:

On the nose.  We're at about the same elevation, both in the helderbergs.  This is why I have digging hatred.  I know how many rocks I'll hit on my way down to 40" depth.  Think a skid steer with the post hole digger would get it done?  

 

I'm a little torn on what to put up.  Realistically I'd like to have about 2 tractors worth of room in it, so I can put my quad, the plotting machine, seed spreader, roller in one bay, and the old tractor (eventually with a new-er tractor) in the other.  There's a nicely drained grassy spot about 30 feet from the cabin that would work.  Maybe something like the picture, and use some of the hemlock off my property thats supposed to be coming off soon.

 

Trust me, a skid steere with a post hole digger will poke holes, just not where you want them. Resulting in a lot of hand work with a pry bar to remove the rock(s) that made your hole 6", at a minimum, from where you need it. Assuming you're like my area with very rocky soil. 

[wolc123]

4 hours ago, Gobbler Chaser said:

Screw it and dig down a foot or even a bit less, pour concrete and set a short cut piece of Sono Tube on top. Build on it and if over the years she heaves just jack and shim as needed. Better off not upsetting ground, just put your footings right on top and dig a bit to prevent lateral movement. Especially for a small building like your doing. What's the sense in digging to prevent winter heaves unless you going down 4 feet on every hole anyway.

 

This 

Or, now that global warming has kicked in full tilt, you can dig down just 20 inches with your holes.  The days of 40 inch deep frosts are long gone.

[Whitetailhobo]

 We build  pole barns equipment sheds , run in sheds, firewood sheds etc. etc.  putting the holes in the ground is always the big question at the start of the day . then wondering if what we have to start it with is going to be what we need to end it with .  Skid steer with auger works well a lot is operator .  The Toro dingo tract auger works well also.  We Built a 30 x 60 and two 12 x 60 pole shed additions placed all the holes with the Toro dingo . Butt you may have a local pole setting guy with a digger Derrick truck made for utility pole work . He can usually auger the hole with his truck  for 25-45 dollars a hole . In / out in a couple hours . 

[mowin]

13 hours ago, wolc123 said:

This 

Or, now that global warming has kicked in full tilt, you can dig down just 20 inches with your holes.  The days of 40 inch deep frosts are long gone.

OMG, stop with the global warming BS.  Go ahead and dig 20" and have the shed heave and eventually fail.  Better yet why don't you dig up your waterlines and put them at 20".  

[wolc123]

3 hours ago, mowin said:

OMG, stop with the global warming BS.  Go ahead and dig 20" and have the shed heave and eventually fail.  Better yet why don't you dig up your waterlines and put them at 20".  

I went 40" on the barn that I put up in 2018.  My buddy dug all but three of the holes with the hydraulic auger on his backhoe.  The three that I did by hand were not too bad, but I dont have many rocks.  I did run into a slab of broken concrete, about a foot down, on one.  That took me about twice as long as the other 2. 

We have not had more than 6" of frost in the ground in WNY in the three winters since then.   I only went so deep to meet code and because we have a tough building inspector in town. 

I think it is time they updated that code.  The ice age is long gone.

[mowin]

2 hours ago, wolc123 said:

I went 40" on the barn that I put up in 2018.  My buddy dug all but three of the holes with the hydraulic auger on his backhoe.  The three that I did by hand were not too bad, but I dont have many rocks.  I did run into a slab of broken concrete, about a foot down, on one.  That took me about twice as long as the other 2. 

We have not had more than 6" of frost in the ground in WNY in the three winters since then.   I only went so deep to meet code and because we have a tough building inspector in town. 

I think it is time they updated that code.  The ice age is long gone.

Not in my area. This February one of my clients had septic issues.  30" of frost. A big factor is how well the soil drains. Ours doesn't.  All clay after a foot or so. 

[ncountry]

6 hours ago, mowin said:

OMG, stop with the global warming BS.  Go ahead and dig 20" and have the shed heave and eventually fail.  Better yet why don't you dig up your waterlines and put them at 20".  

 

..lol. Yeap . I have seen waterlines under driveways freeze @ 5'

 

[mlammerhirt]

 
..lol. Yeap . I have seen waterlines under driveways freeze @ 5'
 

I hear ya...I had a house in the city of Buffalo and about 10 years ago needed to have the water line entering the house replaced. When I got home these guys were deep in the ground. I asked how deep were they setting this copper water line coming off the main....they said 72".....we have been replacing lines all over the city that winter that we're popping at 60-66".

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[Gobbler Chaser]

On 6/5/2021 at 7:38 AM, mowin said:

OMG, stop with the global warming BS.  Go ahead and dig 20" and have the shed heave and eventually fail.  Better yet why don't you dig up your waterlines and put them at 20".  

Heave and fail? Come-on, NY state and the whole northeast for that matter has thousands of barns of all sizes that were built a hundred years before either of was born and will be here a hundred years after we're gone. These barns are built on ground level stone or concrete footings. This nonsense about monolithic slabs is $$$$outta your pocket and digging frost walls and 4 ft deep holes is ridiculous. We're not talking a house here, we're talking out buildings where you store tractors, lawn equipment, ATVs. I've built my own outbuildings for 40 yrs using 2x2ft wood framed concrete footings no deeper than a foot. Nothing has heaved or failed ever. I've never even had to jack and shim a single one. I've seen more 4 ft deep sonotube footings tilt in disturbed soil than I care to mention. Almost all of my buildings now have a slab of 6 or 8 inch's or so poured on the inside of my footings with a perimeter of drainage stone around the building and footings. If the guy was worried about town code then this whole conversation is a waste of time because he has to do what the town wants him to do which probably includes plans and a permit and a lifetime of increased property taxes.

[mowin]

55 minutes ago, Gobbler Chaser said:

Heave and fail? Come-on, NY state and the whole northeast for that matter has thousands of barns of all sizes that were built a hundred years before either of was born and will be here a hundred years after we're gone. These barns are built on ground level stone or concrete footings. This nonsense about monolithic slabs is $$$$outta your pocket and digging frost walls and 4 ft deep holes is ridiculous. We're not talking a house here, we're talking out buildings where you store tractors, lawn equipment, ATVs. I've built my own outbuildings for 40 yrs using 2x2ft wood framed concrete footings no deeper than a foot. Nothing has heaved or failed ever. I've never even had to jack and shim a single one. I've seen more 4 ft deep sonotube footings tilt in disturbed soil than I care to mention. Almost all of my buildings now have a slab of 6 or 8 inch's or so poured on the inside of my footings with a perimeter of drainage stone around the building and footings. If the guy was worried about town code then this whole conversation is a waste of time because he has to do what the town wants him to do which probably includes plans and a permit and a lifetime of increased property taxes.

And I can show you many that have failed.  

[Wildcat]

On 6/4/2021 at 10:28 AM, UpStateRedNeck said:

On the nose.  We're at about the same elevation, both in the helderbergs.  This is why I have digging hatred.  I know how many rocks I'll hit on my way down to 40" depth.  Think a skid steer with the post hole digger would get it done?  

 

I'm a little torn on what to put up.  Realistically I'd like to have about 2 tractors worth of room in it, so I can put my quad, the plotting machine, seed spreader, roller in one bay, and the old tractor (eventually with a new-er tractor) in the other.  There's a nicely drained grassy spot about 30 feet from the cabin that would work.  Maybe something like the picture, and use some of the hemlock off my property thats supposed to be coming off soon.

 

I built a similar structure last year (a run in for our 2 Clydesdales).   see pic, it was still in process but you get the point...   if you want to get a tractor in you are going to probably want to make it 12 foot deep..   if you do then I would suggest another post on either side..   also depending on total length you may want 4 posts along the back..  mine is 28x12 and feel like 9 posts was the right recipe..

Certainly not saying your plan is not good, just sharing what worked for me..

 

[Wildcat]

.... and by the way I am lucky and have sandy soil and no rocks, so did the holes with this..   works awesome