NY’s new big game law on wearing orange

[chrisw]

do you have any response to the hunter harassment issue that several of us are concerned about or are you just looking at this in your own little bubble and swallowing more government koolaid? 

Which is more probable? Hunter harassment or hunter safety? Correct me if I'm wrong (I could be) but aren't you the same guy preaching vaccines for safety? If you are, you can drop the "drinking Kool aid" BS right there. If you're being harassed by Anti's then you get law enforcement involved. It's quite easy to catch people like that. Not wearing orange is like saying you take your seatbelt off Everytime you drive in the vicinity of water in case somehow you end up in it, meanwhile the greater threat is the other motor vehicles, not the water.

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[chrisw]

Anti's cut the high vis green strap to my stand. Broke two others and hit a cam with a hatchet. All because those stands became visible with the high vis. So it literally affects safety - in both directions.
Common sense laws are generally anything but common sense, which is why that term gets used. States like VA make clarity around using BO while on the ground, but not on a stand higher than 10 ft., even county specific, too. They are purpose built laws. This was a law that likely isn't going to have a statistically relevant benefit macro level. We were generally as safe or safer than states with the law and similar demographics. I get that you hunt the war zones, but that is where common sense comes in. Wear it there. If I hunted SL I'd wear orange, too. I doubt the rulebreakers will all of a sudden wear orange while they trespass, poach, etc. I wear BO the large majority of the time, but while in stand visible to anti homeowners/neighbors and a busy road (all while being legal/safe), I do not. And it proved to be the right decision for three years until we swapped straps and got careless with that thought process. Next thing I know, I'm down $500 in gear and almost fell off a ladder.
For people to be short sighted and only think that this law can only do good, I won't change your minds, but it is tunnel vision. It goes both ways.

Sounds like you need to contact a LEO and hang some cams to catch them. Or use other measures, don't leave a stand on that piece to be tampered with, use a climber. Hang your cameras 10' off the ground as I do in high threat areas. Bypassing a measure of safety for the much lower percentage potential issue seems I'll founded to me. By the way, are you sure it was an "ANTI"? I've had several stands and cameras tampered with by other hunters...

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[Five Seasons]

8 minutes ago, chrisw said:

Which is more probable? Hunter harassment or hunter safety? Correct me if I'm wrong (I could be) but aren't you the same guy preaching vaccines for safety? If you are, you can drop the "drinking Kool aid" BS right there. If you're being harassed by Anti's then you get law enforcement involved. It's quite easy to catch people like that. Not wearing orange is like saying you take your seatbelt off Everytime you drive in the vicinity of water in case somehow you end up in it, meanwhile the greater threat is the other motor vehicles, not the water.

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No that's not me. Check that thread, I haven't been in there in months.

And quite easy? You think it's easy to catch people messing with your stands, honking from the road, blaring sound horns from their deck? Short of someone walking up to you and catching and identifying them on camera (good luck with getting a conviction with all this btw), there's nothing easy about it. Contrary to that, hunter safety incidents are at all time lows, which is part of the justification the DEC used to change hunting hours. They're straight hypocrites. In this divisive aggressive culture of 2021, hunter harassments is becoming more and more prevalent and not just because people feel empowered to voice their opinions in the wrong way, but because our hunting land is shrinking and houses and parks are becoming closer and closer to where we hunt. 

[chrisw]

No that's not me. Check that thread, I haven't been in there in months.
And quite easy? You think it's easy to catch people messing with your stands, honking from the road, blaring sound horns from their deck? Short of someone walking up to you and catching and identifying them on camera (good luck with getting a conviction with all this btw), there's nothing easy about it. Contrary to that, hunter safety incidents are at all time lows, which is part of the justification the DEC used to change hunting hours. They're straight hypocrites. In this divisive aggressive culture of 2021, hunter harassments is becoming more and more prevalent and not just because people feel empowered to voice their opinions in the wrong way, but because our hunting land is shrinking and houses and parks are becoming closer and closer to where we hunt. 

The hunter incidents (shooting each other) wouldn't seem too low if it was one of your loved ones would it? I hunt a few really urban areas also, I've also had issues. That's why I only hunt them from a climbing stand now and hang only cell cams 10' high. Sometimes you need to outsmart more than the deer. I don't personally care if you choose not to wear orange, I will as I always have.

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[Five Seasons]

2 minutes ago, chrisw said:

The hunter incidents (shooting each other) wouldn't seem too low if it was one of your loved ones would it? I hunt a few really urban areas also, I've also had issues. That's why I only hunt them from a climbing stand now and hang only cell cams 10' high. Sometimes you need to outsmart more than the deer. I don't personally care if you choose not to wear orange, I will as I always have.

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I always have as well. You're missing the point. It makes no sense to wear it in the tree or inside a blind unless you feel you need to. To be forced to wear it is very different. But hey lets talk about this early doe season and all the hikers, joggers, bird watchers and all the foliage up right now who don't have to wear orange at all. Heck a small game hunter doesn't need to either. Where's the logic there?

[chrisw]

I've had several instances where I'll get up in my climber during gun season and hunt for an hour before I see a flash of orange sticking out from behind a tree. It turns out that person had been tucked up against a tree the whole time, if they hadn't have moved (exposing orange) I would have shot in their direction. It only makes a bit more sense now that the hunting hours have been changed (not that too many people followed it anyways).

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[chrisw]

I always have as well. You're missing the point. It makes no sense to wear it in the tree or inside a blind unless you feel you need to. To be forced to wear it is very different. But hey lets talk about this early doe season and all the hikers, joggers, bird watchers and all the foliage up right now who don't have to wear orange at all. Heck a small game hunter doesn't need to either. Where's the logic there?

You can't create laws for every situation to protect everyone. I'm not saying this is going to solve all problems, you could also look at it as the hikers and birders don't have weapons. If we went that far we could mandate everyone at all times has to wear orange while engaging in any outdoor activity in the woods. Would that make you feel better? There are just as many hikers etc during the regular season as there are during this Sept. Season? That's a moot point to me. To me it doesn't matter if I'm 10-20' up in a tree, you still don't want someone shooting in your direction. The close call I had where I heard bullets buzzing by me I was 25' in a tree. Did that make me feel any better? Nope.

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[Five Seasons]

11 minutes ago, chrisw said:

You can't create laws for every situation to protect everyone. I'm not saying this is going to solve all problems, you could also look at it as the hikers and birders don't have weapons. If we went that far we could mandate everyone at all times has to wear orange while engaging in any outdoor activity in the woods. Would that make you feel better? There are just as many hikers etc during the regular season as there are during this Sept. Season? That's a moot point to me. To me it doesn't matter if I'm 10-20' up in a tree, you still don't want someone shooting in your direction. The close call I had where I heard bullets buzzing by me I was 25' in a tree. Did that make me feel any better? Nope.

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Were you wearing orange when that bullet wized by? If you were, I guess it didn't matter. Did you have the choice? Yes, so if you weren't, why not?

 I read the reports every year and in 20+ years don't recall seeing a single incident where a hunter was shot in a tree. I have seen hunters shooting hunters on the ground and very recently a hunter shooting a woman walking her dog.

But to end this bickering, your first sentence is spot on. You can't create laws for everything, yet here we are with another law that could and can impact hunters negatively without any study or statistics supporting that our safety numbers are worse than other states that have this law. 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Belo

[Einsamer Krieger]

Why can't the lawmakers just leave the HELL alone????

[chrisw]

Were you wearing orange? Did you have the choice? Yes. I read the reports every year and in 20+ years don't recall seeing a single incident where a hunter was shot in a tree. I have seen hunters shooting hunters on the ground and very recently a hunter shooting a woman walking her dog.
But to end this bickering, your first sentence is spot on. You can't create laws for everything, yet here we are with another law that could and can impact hunters negatively. 

Yes I was and no I believe it was a law then. You say this law can affect hunters negatively, it can also benefit some. Welcome to making laws, you won't make both sides happy.

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[phade]

36 minutes ago, chrisw said:

Sounds like you need to contact a LEO and hang some cams to catch them. Or use other measures, don't leave a stand on that piece to be tampered with, use a climber. Hang your cameras 10' off the ground as I do in high threat areas. Bypassing a measure of safety for the much lower percentage potential issue seems I'll founded to me. By the way, are you sure it was an "ANTI"? I've had several stands and cameras tampered with by other hunters...

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You are alluding to a fools choice - NY has been as safe pretty much w/o orange. And, nice job victim blaming - I shouldn't have to worry on our ground about using a ladder vs a climber. And yes, antis. Not other hunters. A 12 yr old kid used that stand last year too.

 

[chrisw]

You are alluding to a fools choice - NY has been as safe pretty much w/o orange. And, nice job victim blaming - I shouldn't have to worry on our ground about using a ladder vs a climber. And yes, antis. Not other hunters. A 12 yr old kid used that stand last year too.
 

"pretty much." Sounds reassuring. I'm not victim blaming anyone? You also shouldn't have to worry about being hit by a drunk driver while on the road yet here we are. Welcome to society, adapt.

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[Five Seasons]

I'm a global safety director. Safety is literally what I do for a living. 20k employees across the globe, billions in revenue. There's a few members that can confirm this. You know it's not the 80's anymore. We've stopped blaming employees, we've stopped adding more rules. Why? Because it doesn't work. Humans are fallible. We make mistakes no matter how hard a company tries to train and control. Study after study confirms this. 

That is why I'm so opposed to this. It's just another law put in place to appease someone or something behind the scenes that we can't see. 

What we do in modern safety is engineer out the hazards. We design a system that allows people to fail safe when we make mistakes. And honestly the great outdoors is wild. It's not a manufacturing facility that we can control. We can make laws, but we can't ensure compliance. We can train and teach hunters through education, but we can't state definitively that they will always be safe. So we do the best we can in those areas with common sense laws and good education. 

This law is like requiring employees to wear gloves because someone cut their hand on a sharp surface, decreasing dexterity, decreasing employee comfort and increasing cost instead of fixing the sharp surface. 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Belo

[phade]

14 minutes ago, chrisw said:

"pretty much." Sounds reassuring. I'm not victim blaming anyone? You also shouldn't have to worry about being hit by a drunk driver while on the road yet here we are. Welcome to society, adapt.

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The pretty much alludes to the choice not the mandate, and not the stats. We're as safe as states with the mandate - that was so clear they used it as noted by Belo in their rationale for start / stop adjustments.

Saying we should use climbers vs ladders is placing the emphasis on us - on private ground, That is victim blaming. And while i don't speak much to adapting, I do ok. I shot three bucks last fall - averaging over P&Y minimum, in multiple states with different weapon types and on grounds I know or had never set foot on. So, adapt is something I am used to. Doesn't mean I have to agree with "common sense" minded individuals. Adapt isn't the point here.

Edited September 15, 2021 by phade

[grampy]

One of hunter educations golden rules is "Be 100% Sure Of Your Target And What Lies Beyond It".  I have made that statement over, and over in hunter ed classes for years. Do I actually think that this was followed by 100% of the people I told it to?? Heck No!!  As a matter of fact, most instructors felt that if they ever mandated Blaze Orange, would that give the green light to shoot, if you don't see it?? That could conceivably be, a costly, or deadly mistake. As not all people in the woods, will be wearing Blaze Orange! Simple as that.

NYS has had one of the safest hunting records in the country for many years. I see no reason to mandate blaze orange. Especially while hunting an elevated stand. Remember??? Be sure of your target? I have always worn BO and it has not affected my hunting at all. But when you mandate something, most will assume ALL others will comply. That could actually lead to more shooting "incidents" 

Our farm property borders state land. And we have had issues with anti hunters trespassing, banging pots, yelling, and all sorts of stupid stuff. DEC gets called, and just gives them a slap on the paddy's, and tells them to leave. Only to have more come back the following weekend. I had the ultimate revenge some years ago, when they drove a nice buck right to me, and I dropped it. I kept yelling back THANK YOU!!!!

 

[airedale]

https://dsgouterwear.com/blog/blaze-orange-hunting-requirements-by-state-usa/

[steve863]

 

I know some of you will get pissed at me asking this, but where the hell do some of you hunt?  In backyards within sight of 100 homes??  Getting treestands damaged and straps cut is surely not a good thing but unfortunately there are a number of negatives to hunting in suburbia.  Guys hunt these areas because the odds of killing big bucks are greater but with some advantages come some disadvantages too.  I never hunted areas like this nor do I care to because of the many issues one can get themselves into with people who don't like hunting or don't know a damned thing about it.   Neither have I ever run into an anti-hunter in the rural areas I have hunted.  Although I have run into some butt-hole hunters over the years.  I'm sure if a poll was taken most honest hunters would say that they have run into more issues with other hunters than they have with anti-hunters by a lopsided percentage.  My .02 cents for the day.

 

 

 

 

[grampy]

56 minutes ago, steve863 said:

 

I know some of you will get pissed at me asking this, but where the hell do some of you hunt?  In backyards within sight of 100 homes??  Getting treestands damaged and straps cut is surely not a good thing but unfortunately there are a number of negatives to hunting in suburbia.  Guys hunt these areas because the odds of killing big bucks are greater but with some advantages come some disadvantages too.  I never hunted areas like this nor do I care to because of the many issues one can get themselves into with people who don't like hunting or don't know a damned thing about it.   Neither have I ever run into an anti-hunter in the rural areas I have hunted.  Although I have run into some butt-hole hunters over the years.  I'm sure if a poll was taken most honest hunters would say that they have run into more issues with other hunters than they have with anti-hunters by a lopsided percentage.  My .02 cents for the day.

 

 

 

 

Our place is rural farm country, with hundreds of acres. Just happens to border state land. 

Division has no boundaries.

[RangerClay]

When I began deer hunting in the early 80's and through the 90's I was VERY anti blaze orange.  Once I had kids my wife asked me to wear a BO hat.  I bought a camo BO baseball cap and have owned several since.  After that everyone in our group got a similar cap.  I must say that I really like them.  The deer don't notice them and it sure is great to instantly spot one of my friends when he is walking over to me in the woods.  The only downfall in this, from my experience, the trespassers won't wear it and will sneak through the woods or be able to see me from a distance.

[phade]

2 hours ago, steve863 said:

 

I know some of you will get pissed at me asking this, but where the hell do some of you hunt?  In backyards within sight of 100 homes??  Getting treestands damaged and straps cut is surely not a good thing but unfortunately there are a number of negatives to hunting in suburbia.  Guys hunt these areas because the odds of killing big bucks are greater but with some advantages come some disadvantages too.  I never hunted areas like this nor do I care to because of the many issues one can get themselves into with people who don't like hunting or don't know a damned thing about it.   Neither have I ever run into an anti-hunter in the rural areas I have hunted.  Although I have run into some butt-hole hunters over the years.  I'm sure if a poll was taken most honest hunters would say that they have run into more issues with other hunters than they have with anti-hunters by a lopsided percentage.  My .02 cents for the day.

 

 

 

 

We're on an active farm that borders village line. 

We not only target big bucks, but we also shoot a fair number of does in season and on damage permits. We're being good stewards of the land - and that knows no boundaries. Good term by Grampy.

If you must really know - this is the spot. The stands are all in this image. And yes, on the left hand side about 200 yards from the truck is a line of 15-20 homes.

Edited September 15, 2021 by phade

[Five Seasons]

I don't hunt suburbia, but I don't hunt the middle of nowhere either. I would guess most guys on this forum hunt within a 5 minute drive from a house or several, which means there are roads and if you hunt fields (some of us do), then you're visible to anyone just driving down a road. House or no house. 

On one property I border a busy road, it sucks but there are big deer there. Anyhow without fail when I put the hat and vest on to get down or I'm climbing in I get honked at. It sucks too.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Belo

[ognennyy]

5 hours ago, Einsamer Krieger said:

Why can't the lawmakers just leave the HELL alone????

This pretty much sums up the entire issue.

 

The debate here has somehow strayed into whether or not orange makes hunters safer.  The real story, however, is that I don't need or want someone to tell me to be safe.  If I want to take a known risk I will, and it's none of anyone else's god damn business.

 

Edit: just to clarify this isn't targeted at anyone in this thread.  It's a general statement about the obvious desperate need in 99.9% of the population of this country to legislate morality to everyone else instead of worrying about themselves.

Edited September 15, 2021 by ognennyy

[First-light]

You know I'm in the camp that using orange will help save some lives and make hunting safer. I have for the last 30 years always thought this was the case. Well sitting here tonight I confess It's not for all of us so why just do away with it. It doesn't save lives, hunter recognition of target does. So why not just have us all moving in and out of the woods in camo? We won't spook the deer!! lol It seems there is a camp that just doesn't like being told what to do. Well I for one will be wearing orange and so will be my daughter that hunts with me. All hunters leaving my camp will be wearing orange. If you happen to get lost and land on parcel 001.01-001.02-009 please pull out a vest and put it on. Look I've been hunting 40 years. We did drives with guys wearing Carhartts.  Did they get shot no, you can't take back the bullet you just shot. Think about it. 

 

[crappyice]

yep. Please honk your horn some more, you're saving the life of a deer 

What sucks for me me is I have a fellow “hunter” that does this to me!!!!
@Biz-R-OWorld


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[wolc123]

I think the blaze orange deal was put in there only due to the added half hour of hunting before sunrise and after sunset.  I feel that we hunters have benefited from that compromise, and it will be worth the price we paid, in the long run.  Last Sunday, I am fairly certain that I got busted by a deer because of my orange hat.   Tomorrow, I am going back to that same stand, with a camo hat and an orange vest.   I think I can fool the deer, that busted me last time, if I do that.  My vest will be mostly hidden from its view by the 3 ft barnwood wall that wraps around the stand.   I will keep my shoulders and the vest down low, by adjusting my chair as low as it will go.

I am picturing that deer approaching the clover patch from the woods at about 6:30 pm like it did last time.   It will likely glance up at my stand, and check for that big, bright orange light bulb, before leaving the cover of the woods.   Hopefully, it is a mature doe.  

Would I prefer that the blaze orange requirement was not there ?, most certainly.  I think I can figure out how to adapt to it, and so ought to the winers out there.