223 Vmax For Deer?????

[grampy]

I recently talked to a younger hunter, who told me he uses his AR with 223 VMax varmint ammo on deer??? Said most of his shots were less than 100 yards. He showed me pictures of a couple of the respectable bucks he has killed using this set up. Also says he likes being the driver on deer drives, carrying his AR ! He does have better options available to him. But prefers to carry the AR in 223??? Also says the 55g VMax leaves a good blood trail. I kind of disagreed with him a bit, and he told me most everyone else did too. But said he was more than happy with the results he's had, and will continue doing it. 

Now I know a deer can be killed with a 22LR. But I just don't think a 223 in thick cover is the best option. 

What do you guys think? I think he's pushing the envelope just a little bit.

 

[Splitear]

This kind of relates to the 22-250 discussion. I am by no means an expert on rifles for deer or balistics, but knowing my own abilities, I would opt for a larger caliber, in hopes that they are more forgiving when it comes to the chance of lesser shot placement. I am interested to learn what others think though since I am such a novice on the topic. 

[UpStateRedNeck]

11 minutes ago, grampy said:

I recently talked to a younger hunter, who told me he uses his AR with 223 VMax varmint ammo on deer??? Said most of his shots were less than 100 yards. He showed me pictures of a couple of the respectable bucks he has killed using this set up. Also says he likes being the driver on deer drives, carrying his AR ! He does have better options available to him. But prefers to carry the AR in 223??? Also says the 55g VMax leaves a good blood trail. I kind of disagreed with him a bit, and he told me most everyone else did too. But said he was more than happy with the results he's had, and will continue doing it. 

Now I know a deer can be killed with a 22LR. But I just don't think a 223 in thick cover is the best option. 

What do you guys think? I think he's pushing the envelope just a little bit.

 

I think I've seen bucks run 400 yards with 150gr holes in both lungs, not being chased.  Sooner or later it will probably bite him.  Not sure why you'd do it if you have better options available?

[Robhuntandfish]

This is my choice for deer drives! 

[grampy]

3 minutes ago, Splitear said:

This kind of relates to the 22-250 discussion. I am by no means an expert on rifles for deer or balistics, but knowing my own abilities, I would opt for a larger caliber, in hopes that they are more forgiving when it comes to the chance of lesser shot placement. I am interested to learn what others think though since I am such a novice on the topic. 

Yes, it is very similar to that thread. Probably could have posted there. 

I am no expert on rifles and ballistics either. But have been hunting long enough to have red flags waving when I hear something like this. 

My Deer Search mentor John Jenenney, used to say they should outlaw 243??? Because of the number of calls from hunters, that couldn't find their deer shot with a 243. I know quite a few members here, who I have a great deal of respect for, use a 243 with outstanding results! 

I guess it all boils down to the hunter behind the rifle. No doubt there are some out there using a 300 Win Mag wounding deer too.

[phade]

3 minutes ago, grampy said:

Yes, it is very similar to that thread. Probably could have posted there. 

I am no expert on rifles and ballistics either. But have been hunting long enough to have red flags waving when I hear something like this. 

My Deer Search mentor John Jenenney, used to say they should outlaw 243??? Because of the number of calls from hunters, that couldn't find their deer shot with a 243. I know quite a few members here, who I have a great deal of respect for, use a 243 with outstanding results! 

I guess it all boils down to the hunter behind the rifle. No doubt there are some out there using a 300 Win Mag wounding deer too.

This is it sir - solid shooting will cover up alot of opportunities with caliber and round selection. I am not the best marksman but I certainly have a favorite go-to that I feel very confident and capable with. So much so, when production was stopped of it, I went and found another barely used one to literally lock up in a safe place should my primary be out of commission.

It reminds of that western saying about being aware of the cowboy or rancher with only one rifle. He likely knows how to use it well because that is all he has ever needed.

[Splitear]

6 minutes ago, grampy said:

Yes, it is very similar to that thread. Probably could have posted there. 

I am no expert on rifles and ballistics either. But have been hunting long enough to have red flags waving when I hear something like this. 

My Deer Search mentor John Jenenney, used to say they should outlaw 243??? Because of the number of calls from hunters, that couldn't find their deer shot with a 243. I know quite a few members here, who I have a great deal of respect for, use a 243 with outstanding results! 

I guess it all boils down to the hunter behind the rifle. No doubt there are some out there using a 300 Win Mag wounding deer too.

Not saying that it doesn't belong here Grampy, I'm glad I saw it and can follow the discussion. I'm a total newbie with rifle hunting deer, as this year will be my first year with a rifle (outside of muzzleloader). Back in Illinois, it was shotgun only, so the choices were pretty limited on caliber. I'm enjoying learning about these things. 

I've wounded and lost deer with a 12 gauge slug, so it's certainly up to the hunter. All of those I lost were regrettably due to taking poor shots when I was quite a bit younger. I like to think that I've grown as a hunter and person since then. 

[Robhuntandfish]

Grampy i gotta say...... might be a good young fella and glad a young guy is hunting ....... and this is mostly just me in my own head and how i look at hunting....  But if i showed up somewhere to hunt with someone and they said they were doing a deer drive and all carrying AR's i would prob pass and wish them luck.  I would be ok with them doing it but prob wouldnt be my hunting crowd.  

[grampy]

25 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

This is my choice for deer drives! 

My favorite round for deer drives for 50 years!!! 

It's the only time my old Deerslayer 2 gets to come out and play!

[airedale]

The most critical component of a cartridge is the bullet, I am a firm believer in matching hunting bullets to the game being hunted for the optimum result. 

I have a library full of books with the written word about bullets and hunting performance from master hunters and riflemen covering many decades. The number one reason for a particular cartridges failure on game with a properly placed shot is almost always bullet construction and it was especially so back in the early days of the then new jacketed bullets. Lack of penetration due to shedding the jacket causing wounds that due not reach vitals.

Modern bullets have come a long way since those early days, better tolerances, better materials, and  construction that is matched to the game being hunted. Innovations like interlocking the jacket to grip the core, bonding the jacket to the core, partitions that allows controlled expansion, solid copper and so on that will give deep penetration to the vitals even if a large bone is hit.

The Vmax bullet line is a thin jacketed bullet made to expand rapidly on small animals where penetration is not needed, they are also known not to be ricochet prone sailing across the countryside on misses and instead disintegrating when hitting the ground or other hard objects and not going far.

As brought out in the 22-250 thread there are much more suitable bullets in the 22 caliber if one uses it for Deer hunting.

Al

Edited October 19, 2021 by airedale

[Pygmy]

The  "V"  in Vmax stands for VARMINT !!   Sure, you can stick one in a deer's rib and get a quick kill,  but here are SOOO many better choices of  bullets and chamberings... ESPECIALLY  if using them in situations where you may not get a perfect stationary broadside shot, such as deer drives...

[Waterfowler]

1 hour ago, Pygmy said:

The  "V"  in Vmax stands for VARMINT !!   Sure, you can stick one in a deer's rib and get a quick kill,  but here are SOOO many better choices of  bullets and chamberings... ESPECIALLY  if using them in situations where you may not get a perfect stationary broadside shot, such as deer drives...

Exactly!

[Steve D]

3 hours ago, grampy said:

Also says the 55g VMax leaves a good blood trail. I kind of disagreed with him a bit, and he told me most everyone else did too. But said he was more than happy with the results he's had, and will continue doing it. 

Now I know a deer can be killed with a 22LR. But I just don't think a 223 in thick cover is the best option. 

From my experience the V-max does not leave much of a blood trail at all. I have shot 6 deer with a .223 60grain v-max and there was hardly a blood trail to follow if needed. It makes a small entrance hole does a ton of internal damage and does not exit.  The chest cavity will be filled with blood when cleaning. All 6 have dropped within 50 yards or less from the point of impact with the longest shot being 250 yards.

 I definitely would not consider a v-max on a drive in brush since they are designed to disintegrate on impact and will do so if they hit so much as a piece of golden rod en route.

 All of my shots have been with a bolt action, in fields or field edges with no obstructions. I would never use one in the woods. While it is not the best bullet/caliber to use it is efficient and kills quickly if placed properly.

[wolc123]

Ahh, to be young and dumb again.  He probably gets lots of chicks.

[SpacemanSpiff]

I dont mind 22 cal for deer hunting. However, its not a novice caliber and bullet type and placement are paramount. Something like these are more suitable. 

[airedale]

ThIs Winchester 223 ammo is made for larger game.

[SpacemanSpiff]

21 minutes ago, airedale said:

ThIs Winchester 223 ammo is made for larger game.

Ive used that on whitetail. Works well. Hard to find now. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by SpacemanSpiff

[ApexerER]

I can see loving to hunt with an AR but why not make one in a caliber more suitable to what you are hunting. While a .223 can, has and will kill lots of deer. There are hundreds of better options IMHO.

[Cabin Fever]

4 hours ago, SpacemanSpiff said:

Ive used that on whitetail. Works well. Hard to find now. 

Does it leave a decent blood trail? I killed one a couple years ago with a .223 and used Remington 55gr PSP. I would never do it again. I purposely took the .223 one day after a fresh snow, thinking if it left a poor blood trail, I would be able to find it by tracking in the fresh snow. I put a heart shot on one and it only made it 40-50 yards. I went to see what the blood trail was like, but only found specs of blood, between where I shot him and where he fell. Tiny entrance hole, no exit, but massive internal damage though. 

[grampy]

1 hour ago, ApexerER said:

I can see loving to hunt with an AR but why not make one in a caliber more suitable to what you are hunting. While a .223 can, has and will kill lots of deer. There are hundreds of better options IMHO.

I have a 223 AR, meant for coyote hunting and plinking. Would never think of using it for deer hunting!

That was how the conversation got started with the 20 something young hunter. He's a neighbors kid, and seems respectful, and not too cocky. But I could tell there was no way he'd listen to anything I said, after he started showing me his "trophy pic's".

Wish now, that I knew as much as I did, back in my 20's......... sigh..........

[moog5050]

3 minutes ago, grampy said:

I have a 223 AR, meant for coyote hunting and plinking. Would never think of using it for deer hunting!

That was how the conversation got started with the 20 something young hunter. He's a neighbors kid, and seems respectful, and not too cocky. But I could tell there was no way he'd listen to anything I said, after he started showing me his "trophy pic's".

Wish now, that I knew as much as I did, back in my 20's......... sigh..........

I know most don't like any v-max on deer, but my buddy swears by them with his 6.8 spc2.   Says they are always DRT.   I am still nervous to try a bullet like that on deer.

[grampy]

13 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

I know most don't like any v-max on deer, but my buddy swears by them with his 6.8 spc2.   Says they are always DRT.   I am still nervous to try a bullet like that on deer.

No doubt that it could, and would kill a deer. Especially in the right hands, under the right conditions. Lights out! DRT!!

I just wondered, since I know he has way better options to use, why he didn't? And on a deer drive??

Who knows? Maybe he was just trying to school me?? I admit to not knowing a whole lot about a lot of things. But smart enough, to keep my mouth shut, and ears open, just enough. So that perhaps I might learn something, to help make me a real fart smeller some day???

Was just curious as to what the guys here thought too? 

Thanks for all the replies fella's.

 

 

 

???

Edited October 20, 2021 by grampy

[Culvercreek hunt club]

On 10/19/2021 at 2:59 PM, Robhuntandfish said:

Grampy i gotta say...... might be a good young fella and glad a young guy is hunting ....... and this is mostly just me in my own head and how i look at hunting....  But if i showed up somewhere to hunt with someone and they said they were doing a deer drive and all carrying AR's i would prob pass and wish them luck.  I would be ok with them doing it but prob wouldnt be my hunting crowd.  

Why? What if they all had Remington 740's and Winchester 100's?

[dbHunterNY]

6 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Why? What if they all had Remington 740's and Winchester 100's?

being at the foothills of the adirondacks the tried and true deer drive gun was a Remington semi-auto or pump. same for fast follow ups until the mag is empty or the deer has hit the dirt.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

1 hour ago, grampy said:

No doubt that it could, and would kill a deer. Especially in the right hands, under the right conditions. Lights out! DRT!!

I just wondered, since I know he has way better options to use, why he didn't? And on a deer drive??

Who knows? Maybe he was just trying to school me?? I admit to not knowing a whole lot about a lot of things. But smart enough, to keep my mouth shut, and ears open, just enough. So that perhaps I might learn something, to help make me a real fart smeller some day???

Was just curious as to what the guys here thought too? 

Thanks for all the replies fella's.

 

 

 

???

Yeah. That's my issue. I have used the 22-250 on nuisance does in open fields and it was never an issue. HOWEVER, if I get a deer in the woods and it is giving me a quartering to shot,  I want a bullet and caliber I KNOW will go through the shoulder and expend energy in the vitals with enough left over to get and exit hole. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Culvercreek hunt club