Why??

[land 1]

ok so 153 dosen't like cross bows period I specifcally asked him why there more effective the modern cross bow , i stated both have benefits no answer ... thinks his  wanting bigger bucks, he says its all about mgt well NY has 1.2 million deer not bad mgt, is what all hunters want and he thinks NY can be equal to high ag and better growth rates better soil etc as the mid west...NY is not ohio kansas illionios  missouri etc.... deer out there that are aged at 2 and 3 that break 120in  the avg 3 yr old buck in NY is 103in per DEC... so lets shorten gun season that the vast majority of hunters take part in and enjoy ...and as we all are hunters i feel that if a deer is taken legal and that what the hunter wanted congrats....and the more oppurtunties to get in the woods the better....so if u want to shoot a spike do it if u dont then dont... and if you dont want to and dont like how it is new york go else where and enjoy your hunt there.....

Edited December 6, 2021 by land 1

[chrisw]

ok so 153 dosen't like cross bows period I specifcally asked him why there more effective the modern cross bow , i stated both have benefits no answer ... thinks his  wanting bigger bucks, he says its all about mgt well NY has 1.2 million deer not bad mgt, is what all hunters want and he thinks NY can be equal to high ag and better growth rates better soil etc as the mid west...NY is not ohio kansas illionios  missouri etc.... deer out there that are aged at 2 and 3 that break 120in  the avg 3 yr old buck in NY is 103in per DEC... so lets shorten gun season that the vast majority of hunters take part in and enjoy ...and as we all are hunters i feel that if a deer is taken legal and that what the hunter wanted congrats....and the more oppurtunties to get in the woods the better....so if u want to shoot a spike do it if u dont then dont... and if you dont want to and dont like how it is new york go else where and enjoy your hunt there.....

You should probably stop while you're not ahead. Grammar and the use of punctuation are a pet peeve of mine, so pardon me if I don't argue statistics with people who don't/can't form a complete sentence. When I have to re-read every line of your post to try to figure out what you're trying to say, it takes away from the argument altogether.

Riddle me this: Have you ever killed a "big" buck?

If you had access to property with mature deer, would you still shoot little bucks?

Do you have any deer mounted?



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[land 1]

1st question yes go to the 2021 live from woods his mount is getting done as we speak.

2nd yes the buck in 2021 live from woods is 6 1/2 yrs old

3rd one other mounted deer first ever at 16yrs old many many many yrs ago 9pt 120class...

just to add a few heaviest deer 198lbs dressed 7 pt 4yr old... oldest deer 8yrs plus 8pt about 110in

sooooo sorry my grammer is not up to par high school education back then aint what they r now lol

page 240 of the 2021 live from woods thread and it was killed on my land...oh and maybe it your reading because if i do recall you made statements that some one shot two bucks with a gun and posted, and u pointed out that this was not legal but u were wrong..mic drop

Edited December 6, 2021 by land 1

[chrisw]

1st question yes go to the 2021 live from woods his mount is getting done as we speak.
2nd yes the buck in 2021 live from woods is 6 1/2 yrs old
3rd one other mounted deer first ever at 16yrs old many many many yrs ago 9pt 120class...
just to add a few heaviest deer 198lbs dressed 7 pt 4yr old... oldest deer 8yrs plus 8pt about 110in
sooooo sorry my grammer is not up to par high school education back then aint what they r now lol
page 240 of the 2021 live from woods thread and it was killed on my land.....mic drop

So it appears you do in fact favor large bucks.

Why is that?

Why does someone who favors older age class deer so opposed to QDM?



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[land 1]

 

4 minutes ago, chrisw said:

So it appears you do in fact favor large bucks.

Why is that?

Why does someone who favors older age class deer so opposed to QDM?



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Favor yes and is it great when i score on the big one yup, but in no way do i need them for a good satisfying hunt in fact the 2yr old 6 pt i got with x bow was a way more thrilling hunt, this yr,,,, and nor will i try to tell another hunter to change his ways if they are legal...

[chrisw]

 
Favor yes and is it great when i score on the big one yup, but in no way do i need them for a good satisfying hunt in fact the 2yr old 6 pt i got with x bow was a way more thrilling hunt, this yr,,,, and nor will i try to tell another hunter to change his ways if they are legal...

So do you think the average hunter in NY is happier with a big buck? Or a small one?

If there were 2 bucks in a field, one big, one small. Which do you kill?

You stated that "it's great" when you kill a big one. You do realize that a season restructure and overall better deer herd would lead to more opportunities at "the big one" for everyone right?

You can stand on a pedestal and say a lot of people don't care about antlers but we all know that's false about 98% of the time. Hunters are happier with the bigger deer. There's a reason taxidermists stay busy all year, and it's not because people like small deer.

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[land 1]

5 minutes ago, chrisw said:

So do you think the average hunter in NY is happier with a big buck? Or a small one?

If there were 2 bucks in a field, one big, one small. Which do you kill?

You stated that "it's great" when you kill a big one. You do realize that a season restructure and overall better deer herd would lead to more opportunities at "the big one" for everyone right?

You can stand on a pedestal and say a lot of people don't care about antlers but we all know that's false about 98% of the time. Hunters are happier with the bigger deer. There's a reason taxidermists stay busy all year, and it's not because people like small deer.

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ok yup 100% would be happier with a big buck me included...however a restructure would greatly limit many peoples time hunt more so the gun hunters.... I know many guys that can get out just a few times so limit there gune season to 10 or 12 days and we will loose hunters, and to be honest in over 30 yrs of hunting ive come to appreciate the days in the field be it big buck stories or small buck stories or just sitting at camp,,, and yes the big ones maybe some of the best stories  , but it is not what drives me, also never said people or i dont care about antlers,,, but its not my driving factor....get out enjoy the woods take a deep breath leave work and the BS behind thats what drives me and yes if two bucks come out the bigger one gets shot...and no i will not want to reduce gun season or put AR's into place.. i like the way things are now overall

[chrisw]

ok yup 100% would be happier with a big buck me included...however a restructure would greatly limit many peoples time hunt more so the gun hunters.... I know many guys that can get out just a few times so limit there gune season to 10 or 12 days and we will loose hunters, and to be honest in over 30 yrs of hunting ive come to appreciate the days in the field be it big buck stories or small buck stories or just sitting at camp,,, and yes the big ones maybe some of the best stories  , but it is not what drives me, also never said people or i dont care about antlers,,, but its not my driving factor....get out enjoy the woods take a deep breath leave work and the BS behind thats what drives me and yes if two bucks come out the bigger one gets shot...and no i will not want to reduce gun season or put AR's into place.. i like the way things are now overall

The season should never be setup to appease the hunters desires. Management is just that, it's for the health of the herd, period. So the fact that people are limited on time should not be a concern for the states management. To put it bluntly, I don't care about "cousin Eddie's woes" as to why he can't hunt this or that weekend. You make do with what you have. Noone gets to hunt as much as they wish they could, that's life.

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[land 1]

15 minutes ago, chrisw said:

The season should never be setup to appease the hunters desires. Management is just that, it's for the health of the herd, period. So the fact that people are limited on time should not be a concern for the states management. To put it bluntly, I don't care about "cousin Eddie's woes" as to why he can't hunt this or that weekend. You make do with what you have. Noone gets to hunt as much as they wish they could, that's life.

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Perfectly stated you dont care,,,,, what if i said shorten bow season close it nov 1st till the 3rd saturday in november then gun opens i dont care, dont hunt the rut with bow let the big bucks run wild chasing doe with out being hunted,  that would really lets some big ones live till next year,,, i would never say that  but you "dont care"... are u not wanting the season changed to appease what you want....????

Edited December 6, 2021 by land 1

[chrisw]

Perfectly stated you dont care,,,,, what if i said shorten bow season close it nov 1st till the 3rd saturday in november then gun opens i dont care, dont hunt the rut with bow let the big bucks run wild chasing doe with out being hunted,  that would really lets some big ones live till next year,,, i would never say that  but you "dont care"... are u not wanting the season changed to appease what you want....????

Of course it would appease me. The same way it would appease you if they added on even more season. And you're right, I don't care about every Time, Dick or Harry's feelings. I care about the deer. I like deer more than I like most people. I'm not ashamed to admit it.

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[land 1]

3 minutes ago, chrisw said:

Of course it would appease me. The same way it would appease you if they added on even more season. And you're right, I don't care about every Time, Dick or Harry's feelings. I care about the deer. I like deer more than I like most people. I'm not ashamed to admit it.

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I dont care about a longer season do like the idea of the new late season with muzzel yes but i wont get out for it, but it is good chance for guys to get out young kids that got school etc.....lol u care about deer you care about big bucks and tagging one , again just looked it up per NYS DEC 1.2 million deer in NY the deer are not hurting....

[chrisw]

I dont care about a longer season do like the idea of the new late season with muzzel yes but i wont get out for it, but it is good chance for guys to get out young kids that got school etc.....lol u care about deer you care about big bucks and tagging one , again just looked it up per NYS DEC 1.2 million deer in NY the deer are not hurting....

Last response. Have you ever heard the term "quality over quantity"? Would you rather go to a lake and catch 10" bass all day, or a different lake and catch 18" bass all day? What if I told you that the bass fishing in the 18" lake was strictly managed for quality fish? There were slot sizes for keeping fish. Are you still going to say you'd rather fish the 10" lake??

If you haven't gotten anything out of what I said up to this point then you won't. I guess if I could hope to get one point across to you it would be this: I want a change in season structure to appease myself and to ultimately give every hunter more opportunities at larger deer. You call that selfish. But don't for one second believe that because you say everyone should be able to shoot what they want and always wanting more seasons, more implements etc, that you aren't also being selfish. It works both ways.

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[land 1]

5 minutes ago, chrisw said:

Last response. Have you ever heard the term "quality over quantity"? Would you rather go to a lake and catch 10" bass all day, or a different lake and catch 18" bass all day? What if I told you that the bass fishing in the 18" lake was strictly managed for quality fish? There were slot sizes for keeping fish. Are you still going to say you'd rather fish the 10" lake??

If you haven't gotten anything out of what I said up to this point then you won't. I guess if I could hope to get one point across to you it would be this: I want a change in season structure to appease myself and to ultimately give every hunter more opportunities at larger deer. You call that selfish. But don't for one second believe that because you say everyone should be able to shoot what they want and always wanting more seasons, more implements etc, that you aren't also being selfish. It works both ways.

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ok there guy.....hope you get a big one good luck,,, yup im selfish because i want people to have more time in the woods and shoot a deer any deer they are happy with.... PS bass taste like ass i prefer perch and walleye so all bass go back lol guess im into bass mgt lol.....

[Chef]

Im coming around on AR the more I watch Pennsylvania hunts on youtube.


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AR while still allowing for 2 bucks a year would be pretty cool. I am all for AR as long as it doesn’t affect youth hunters.

I saw what it did in the Catskills and I was impressed
We went from seeing dinks…. To this over just even a few years





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[Nomad]

7 hours ago, chrisw said:

Noone

Since we’re on the topic of grammar, ( which I’m very poor at ) , noone , which you use all the time , is not a word, it’s no one . Carry on .

 

[diplomat019]

44 minutes ago, Chef said:

AR while still allowing for 2 bucks a year would be pretty cool. I am all for AR as long as it doesn’t affect youth hunters.

I saw what it did in the Catskills and I was impressed
We went from seeing dinks…. To this over just even a few years





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I can second this.  Property i have been hunting for the last 20 years went from spikes to a few big boys the last 4-5 years. 

[chrisw]

Since we’re on the topic of grammar, ( which I’m very poor at ) , noone , which you use all the time , is not a word, it’s no one . Carry on .
 

You are correct. My sincerest apologies Sir Nomad.

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[chrisw]

I can second this.  Property i have been hunting for the last 20 years went from spikes to a few big boys the last 4-5 years. 

What were your thoughts when they passed the regulations? Were you opposed? How are your thoughts now, compared to then?

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[G-Man]

A shortend season would perhaps lose hunters but you would have a increase of hunters per hour.

When opening day was a Monday many took off the entire week  resulting in more hunters innbthe woods as any given hour, a 10 to 14 day season would result in the same. The way it is now weekend hunting is extremely common.  But loot at successful hunter and they hunt during the week.   A shorter season or multiple short seasons would result in more deer taken with time for herd to return to normal patterns.  

as for qdm i dont like it in its form ,its become twisted to trophy management.   Total deer management  would be better .  Focusing on herd health,   you cannot stock pile big bucks  this is well known.   So shoot what the property offers as top deer and forget score/ age.  

[diplomat019]

9 minutes ago, chrisw said:

What were your thoughts when they passed the regulations? Were you opposed? How are your thoughts now, compared to then?

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When they first passed it I wasn’t overly crazy about it. I didn’t have a real hard-line stance on it but I felt like I should be able to take whatever I want. But looking back now I really like it. I had to sacrifice some years passing on smaller ones that younger me would have taken, but in the last five years I have taken a six pointer and an eight pointer. Last year there was a big 12 pointer on the property that was on trail cam. And I spoke to a guy yesterday who is logging the property who said he saw a six and a 10 pointer as of this week.   So yes, I like what has become of the antler restrictions based off what I have personally seen. 

[chrisw]

When they first passed it I wasn’t overly crazy about it. I didn’t have a real hard-line stance on it but I felt like I should be able to take whatever I want. But looking back now I really like it. I had to sacrifice some years passing on smaller ones that younger me would have taken, but in the last five years I have taken a six pointer and an eight pointer. Last year there was a big 12 pointer on the property that was on trail cam. And I spoke to a guy yesterday who is logging the property who said he saw a six and a 10 pointer as of this week.   So yes, I like what has become of the antler restrictions based off what I have personally seen. 

I was just curious as your exact response seems to be the resounding answer a few years post AR. It's difficult to have a fair talk about it with a lot of people. I'm certainly not the poster boy for it, but I would like to see it done. What people don't seem to grasp is it doesn't create larger/healthier herds for only certain hunters, it creates more opportunities at larger deer for everyone. And those same hunters will usually report back something along the lines of "I don't care about larger bucks" which is a lie really, albeit hard to confess to. Thanks for your input.

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[Five Seasons]

15 hours ago, chrisw said:

You should probably stop while you're not ahead. Grammar and the use of punctuation are a pet peeve of mine, so pardon me if I don't argue statistics with people who don't/can't form a complete sentence. When I have to re-read every line of your post to try to figure out what you're trying to say, it takes away from the argument altogether.

Riddle me this: Have you ever killed a "big" buck?

If you had access to property with mature deer, would you still shoot little bucks?

Do you have any deer mounted?



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You're a better man than me. I stopped after the first 2 incoherent sentences. 

[chrisw]

A shortend season would perhaps lose hunters but you would have a increase of hunters per hour.
When opening day was a Monday many took off the entire week  resulting in more hunters innbthe woods as any given hour, a 10 to 14 day season would result in the same. The way it is now weekend hunting is extremely common.  But loot at successful hunter and they hunt during the week.   A shorter season or multiple short seasons would result in more deer taken with time for herd to return to normal patterns.  
as for qdm i dont like it in its form ,its become twisted to trophy management.   Total deer management  would be better .  Focusing on herd health,   you cannot stock pile big bucks  this is well known.   So shoot what the property offers as top deer and forget score/ age.  

QDM isn't about stockpiling big bucks? Not to mention big bucks cannot be stock piled, it's impossible as nature will not allow it. That in itself would not be a healthy herd. When you have animals of all age classes the herd benefits immensely. Protecting the yearling bucks does wonders for the herd. In NY from what I recall, we take like 60-70% of our yearling bucks every season. When PA adopted AR, they reduced their yearling buck take to roughly 10%, from around 70%. As a result, the following years the take of 2.5 yr old bucks increased dramatically, as well as 3.5+ yr old deer. It simply guarantees a more diverse age structure. The same holds true for fishing. There needs to be structure. Guess what the best walleye lakes in the country have in common? Structured management and size/limit restrictions. Noone is catching less fish? They're catching better quality fish. For whatever reason, people hear QDM and it's synonymous with trophy hunting, but QDM isn't a trophy concept, trophies are only one result of it. The biggest detriment to our deer herd is age. If we changed nothing but the average age of our buck take, it would present everyone with better opportunities.

I agree with your first part about a shortened season doesn't equate to less opportunity. With the current season layout I can pick and choose when to hunt during the extra long gun season. If it were shorter I would simply hunt more to take advantage of it.

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[land 1]

actually last few years less and less 1 1/2 bucks are taken in fact per DEC NY hunters take about the same or less 1 1/2 bucks as pennselyvania  hunters. in fact 61.7% of bucks taken last year were 2.5 or older

Edited December 6, 2021 by land 1
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[G-Man]

18 minutes ago, chrisw said:

QDM isn't about stockpiling big bucks? Not to mention big bucks cannot be stock piled, it's impossible as nature will not allow it. That in itself would not be a healthy herd. When you have animals of all age classes the herd benefits immensely. Protecting the yearling bucks does wonders for the herd. In NY from what I recall, we take like 60-70% of our yearling bucks every season. When PA adopted AR, they reduced their yearling buck take to roughly 10%, from around 70%. As a result, the following years the take of 2.5 yr old bucks increased dramatically, as well as 3.5+ yr old deer. It simply guarantees a more diverse age structure. The same holds true for fishing. There needs to be structure. Guess what the best walleye lakes in the country have in common? Structured management and size/limit restrictions. Noone is catching less fish? They're catching better quality fish. For whatever reason, people hear QDM and it's synonymous with trophy hunting, but QDM isn't a trophy concept, trophies are only one result of it. The biggest detriment to our deer herd is age. If we changed nothing but the average age of our buck take, it would present everyone with better opportunities.

I agree with your first part about a shortened season doesn't equate to less opportunity. With the current season layout I can pick and choose when to hunt during the extra long gun season. If it were shorter I would simply hunt more to take advantage of it.

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Ny buck taken older than 2 is now 62%  without ar