Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

My buddies an I know exactly what we mean when we say we hunt mature bucks.. we don't need a number to help us do the right thing.

right thing...huh... amazing the arrogance of this guy and the group like him.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

you guys want the cops to estimate the speed you travel too? or will you drive so obviously slow it can never be mistaken as speeding?

[Doc]

But to answer your question...An alert deer's ear tips are approx 16" tip to tip. So the original 14" QDM recommendation from 15 years ago would be just fine to write the law.

Pretty much going in a circle here aren't we? You refuse to answer how the law could be applied if the deer isn't looking at you. Is that just another "no-shoot" situation? Or do you make some kind of noise to get him to look straight at you and then after a hurried judgement, snap off a shot quick before he bolts if he's a keeper. That sounds like a real good idea.

I will repeat that antler spread ARs are simply not the right way to go for all the reasons that I have laid out and you have ignored.

Doc

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Doc...you should know that applying logic and trying to have an actual debate with this mind set is not going to happen. the spew opinion as fact and when questioned...they ignore...when confronted with contray experts they dance around it...when asked a direct question the avoid it.....and then lump anyone that favors a choice in their hunting as a brown and down with no respect for the herd.

[burmjohn]

I've seen it go both ways on here with guys for and against AR.  Those for it look at it one way and selectively choose what to answer, those for it look at it the other and selectively choose what to answer.

The biggest gripe I have is those who speak for my WMU with AR, that have no idea what my WMU's hunting conditions are nor ever will.   

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I've seen it go both ways on here with guys for and against AR.  Those for it look at it one way and selectively choose what to answer, those for it look at it the other and selectively choose what to answer.-----LOL..I AGREE 100%...I know what you meant to type.

The biggest gripe I have is those who speak for my WMU with AR, that have no idea what my WMU's hunting conditions are nor ever will. 

I don't hunt down there and would never presume to say what is best for an area I have no knowledge of. I have seen many of these guys (AR's)start the conversation on a specific area and say they want it for there and don't have interest to tell others what to do...but in the next breath the are talking down the decissions of anyone how take a 1 1/2 yo and tout the AR's for the entire state. I guess it is a certain mind set. I haven't heard one guy opposed to them telling the proponents that they should make their choices differently...but that courtesy in not flowing the other direction.

[nyantler]

Doc.. you must not be paying attention I have answered every question you have asked...for the last time.. YES, if the buck doesn't offer the opportunity to determine if he is a legal buck.. you let him walk. Again .. I'm not seeing the difficulty here.

I didn't say you had to like the answer.. but thats my answer. If he ends up being a shooter, oh well, better luck next time. As for the speeding analogy... what the hell does that have to do with anything? The cops have a radar gun they don't need to guess... I don't know about you but i only have my eyes for determining antler spread. But there is a good idea... a spread measuring gun!

By the way.. i don't have any problem with anyone not liking AR.. its just that a lot of your arguments are a bit weak is all

[steve863]

Doc.. you must not be paying attention I have answered every question you have asked...for the last time.. YES, if the buck doesn't offer the opportunity to determine if he is a legal buck.. you let him walk. Again .. I'm not seeing the difficulty here.

It is obviously different where you hunt, but there are lots of places in NY where people don't exactly have bucks walking all over them during hunting season. They may see one or two and maybe NONE in an entire season.  So a person living in an area like this should let an antlered buck walk just because they aren't sure whether it might be a 13" spread compared to a 14"??  Are you guys for real??  A number of these areas don't even hand out doe permits so what reason do these guys have to hunt then?  Maybe YOU can hunt each and every day of a hunting season, but most people can't.  They can't be passing up every bloody deer in the woods just because YOU don't think they should be shooting younger animals.  YOU guys are the ones with the weak arguments because what you guys want will not swing in the eyes of most hunters OR the DEC who wants hunters to go out and thin the herds.  Your ideas are based on fantasy only from what I can see here, because it obviously ISN'T based on reality. 

[nyantler]

Steve .. just because it doesn't swing with the hunters doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. As I have said before, I have no problem with guys hunting the way they want.. I'm just giving my opinion. Yes I do think some of the arguments are weak, but that doesn't mean I have any opinion of these guys personally. I'm sure they all love hunting as much as I do. And I think AR "can" be a good idea if done properly. I don't begrudge any kid wanting to take a young buck as he gains experience in the woods. But,  I really don't understand why guys my age, that have taken truck loads of young bucks over the years,  still can not pass on a small buck. I actually knew a guy that filled every tag he had 2 years ago.. two crotch horns and 3 does. he was all excited about telling everyone about his great achievment... I was on his property getting some firewood and notice all but one of the deer piled up behind his barn rotting. He didn't have the time or money to process all the deer. it made me sick! why did he take all those deer? The only reason he harvested those deer was for bragging rights. I believe there are a lot of hunters with the same mentality.

[steve863]

No one that I hunt with lets deer rot.  Just because you came across a clown like him doesn't mean that everyone who is happy with any deer they shoot do it for bragging right or will let them rot.  Like I said before, there are a good many hunters who don't exactly hunt prime country where there are deer walking all over them at every hour of the day.  If you hunt such an area, where deer are within view all the time, you should consider yourself darned LUCKY!  Don't for a minute think it's that easy for the majority of hunters out there.  That is where I call your arguments weak because you are not taking into account the vast majority of hunters in the state who don't have the prime spots to hunt or have unlimited time to devote to it.  If you had it your way these people would pretty much have little to NO reasons to hunt at all.  Which in turn would probably mean less hunters participating and contributing to the sport.  Of course this would then leave more room for the rest of you, and probably leave more deer also.  It sure looks to some of us that that is what you guys really want, but don't want to come right out and say it? 

[gjs4]

Lets change the question-

Do you feel that the average age of bucks harvested in NY should be 1.5 years old?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Answer---DGAF

[gjs4]

it shows in your posts

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I know it does...I set my  standards and I dont shoot 1.5's....I just wont jump on the band wagon and try to push my preference on others in teh hopes it makes my hunting easier....and that is what it is all about anyway...right admit it...you want t be able to trip over a B&C every time you step out your door

[Doc]

Doc.. you must not be paying attention I have answered every question you have asked...for the last time.. YES, if the buck doesn't offer the opportunity to determine if he is a legal buck.. you let him walk. Again .. I'm not seeing the difficulty here.

I didn't say you had to like the answer.. but thats my answer. If he ends up being a shooter, oh well, better luck next time. 

By the way.. i don't have any problem with anyone not liking AR.. its just that a lot of your arguments are a bit weak is all

It's not a question of liking or disliking AR. It is this antler spread idea that goes way beyond any sensible practicality.

I guess what you are saying is, if a buck is not looking at the hunter, you would force all hunters to simply let it walk. Or they can take a risk that the rack is so big it just has to meet the spread requirement (Too bad if they're wrong). I wonder if you know just how silly all that sounds. And you would actually support a law to that effect. See it's ideas such as that that really give the DEC some credibility for the responsible judgement that they have shown on the AR issue. No wonder they don't take AR seriously if that's the kinds of suggestions they are getting from the proponents. It could be that AR proponents are their own worst enemy. :

Doc

[Larry]

with so many of us claiming we are doing QDM and poles saying we are for AR's answer this why has the percentage of 1.5 year old in the harvest has staide the same for the last 10 years

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Because we are under 700 membersm..lol

[nyantler]

because there are NOT many that practice any QDM or follow any AR... the reality is that most hunters shoot anything they can fill a tag with... thats why it hasn't changed. In other words you get out of it what you put into it.

[Doc]

with so many of us claiming we are doing QDM and poles saying we are for AR's answer this why has the percentage of 1.5 year old in the harvest has staide the same for the last 10 years

The fact is that a lot of people claim to be all for AR until the deer gets in front of them. In other words, the whole idea sounds great to your peer group and is intended to imply that you are some sort of superior hunter, so AR makes a good sounding thing to support. I mean, isn't it great to stick out your chest and proudly proclaim, "I will kill no buck before it's time. That's because ....... drum roll ....... I am a great hunter!" We've been reading a lot of that sort of thing here lately. Unfortunately, there is the reality of harvest data. That's when this "great majority" of high principled AR supporters and self-annointed hunting elitists are forced to expose their true feelings as the crosshairs actually settle on the spikes and fork-horns.

Doc

[Fairgame]

For the hunters that dont have ARs they are forced to only harvest what is availible to them.  If a 2 1/2 or a 3 1/2 is rare in the area what do you expect that hunter to harvest?  Unless everyone in your area is doing some type of management that is the only way something like ARs will ever work.  That is why the percentages dont change in NY state.  You can only hunt what is there.  You cant hunt something that is not there.  Tomorrow I am going to kill a mountain lion in NY. :-X

[burmjohn]

And thats why mandatory AR in 3H where I hunt works...

[wztirem]

Theres mountain lions in 3H---YIKES, keep your AR

[TheHunter]

because there are NOT many that practice any QDM or follow any AR... the reality is that most hunters shoot anything they can fill a tag with... thats why it hasn't changed. In other words you get out of it what you put into it.

So true, and these same guys get mad when they are called the Brown its downers...  :'(  Truth hurts.

[Doc]

For the hunters that dont have ARs they are forced to only harvest what is availible to them. 

And that basically shows the actual level of dedication to the principle that they really have. They talk themselves into all kinds of stories and reasons and excuses why they can support AR but not actually practice it. The myth that that is all that is available to them is just one of those rationalizations and the folly of that rationalization is proven all over the state every season in non-AR WMUs. So the bulk of these bogus supporters have the best of both worlds. They can make themselves sound like elite hunters among their peers and yet not bother to walk the talk. That's the kind of phoney support that AR has. It's all attitude and no substance.

Doc

[burmjohn]

And that's why the mandatory AR works   The other problem is the old if I don't my neighbor will, which is why AR on a small scale doesn't work.

Opening weekend was slow, but Monday I had a lot of action.  I had two spikes walk under my stand, then I screwed up on a beautiful 8 (I was dozing off, and he snuck in on me) The same day I saw another big 7 (maybe 8, didnt have binocs ready) but way to far to shoot for bow come by.  Neighbor shot a nice buck as well, other neighbor shot a nice buck.  This kind of action wasn't there a few years ago.  Its really exciting.