Meat Manager
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Posts posted by Meat Manager
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This site has degenerated so much in the last 9 months.
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If you want to point to specific elements of other state agencies management plans and apply them here fine...but you better point to NJ or PA if you are talking about the same population density in terms of BOTH deer and humans.It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that doing the same thing time and time again will give you the same results. They haven't changed a THING since they screwed up last time. Their response is "We screwed up. Let's issue more tags again."
Other states have much better models to work with. Ohio's system being one of them. Perfect? No, but also not stuck in the dark ages like NY. NY ranks in the top 3 or top 5 (I forget which) of agencies with deer-dedicated personnel. Yet, their arguably at the bottom of the heap from a management perspective. I know Jeremy is a good guy. He is handcuffed by the politics. It still doesn't change the fact they continue to do the same thing and expect different results or different engagement from the hunting public.
Ohio or any other Midwestern or southern states model does not apply here in this very densely populated state.
But you haven't pointed to anything specific and as I recall abhor the idea of EAB which Jersey uses.
Again no plan just a politically lazy hater.
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Anecdotal accounts like you describe are statistically insignificant.Meat Manager a calculated figure based on unconfirmed stats and unreliable reports is a guess. Being in the woods and seeing alot less deer then 10 or 15 years ago and seeing guys pass up does because they are afraid of missing out on that big buck isnt a guess. Oh and Mike Rossi is a dumb ash
The DEC employs wildlife biologists and deploys a scientific method in terms of collecting statistics and calculating populations...
Again...no one else has a plan, you're just a bunch of bitching trolls and "scary government" haters.
And Mike Rossi is the ONLY guy on this site that backs up his political talk with real political action, not bluster and self-delusional bs.
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Okay critcs lay out your plan to count and control numbers the "right way."Yes, thanks Grow. I am glad you provided that data, lol.
They misstepped big time because their ability to manage deer numbers is pee poor. Throwing tags at it is EXACTLY how it happened the first time. They increased tags the same fashion, double digit %. And, they are not doing a single thing different this time around.
The DEC's intention at that time was NOT to knock it down to 180K. It's taken ten years...TEN! to just get back to the 240s. They wiped the herd out drastically in some parts of the state.
Anyway you slice it, the DEC was at fault, they admitted it, they are doing the same thing ten years later, and nothing different. Yet, you claim that they just "need a chance" to act on their words. Get real.
You knock hunters who won't take a doe (which is their decision), and predict the sky falling. Yet, you didn't even know the DEC already burned hunters in the last decade doing the same thing. Can you blame them for not trusting the data, nor wanting to fill every tag no matter what? Seriously.
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I legally harvested 8 deer last season all but 1 under 30yds.Sent from my Lazy Boy
5 of those with the bow and a mature spring Tom with my bow all under 30yds.
As for my archery Buck last season like I said I was confident he was mature when I decided to draw.
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Grow...thanks for providing data.
I disagree with your analysis of that data.
In my view the deer take went way down because the DEC indeed slightly overstepped...
But it was the DECs intention to significantly drop the glutted herd and it temporarily did.
3 seasons later take was back up to the 220s and now back to 240s and the herd is approaching glut again.
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It's not a guess it's a calculated figure based on reported take and many other methods of statistical collection.yes it is easy to report but its not done... so their guess is just that a guess, same as anyone elses.. were there more deer , when i started hunting yes...4 people to a dmp as well. then it dropped to 2 by early 1990's now 1... they know the population is to big in most areas...
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I'm not confusing anything...hunters will not have a choice when mandatory EAB is imposed or much worse yet when red tags and sharp shooters become the preferred means of population control.Again, you are confusing the two components. Hunter choice and enforcement.
IF the DEC were really concerned, there would be changes in the way they manage the population. Instead, they keep kicking up the same old system. Let's add another XX% to the XX% we issued last year. They did this once before in the last decade and the deer numbers came crashing down. This is showing they haven't learned anything from that mistake - which they admitted.
Words on paper and actions taken are very different.
If someone wants to pass a doe and hold out for a buck, so be it. Your take on it is just as skewed as theirs.
Especially in a state like NY where mute swans can not legally be harvested by hunters despite the fact that the DEC and other conservation minded groups support this method of population control.
By the way words on paper must precede actions when dealing with state agencies.
You should have Mike Rossi give you an education on how the legislature and other state institutions function.
Also show me in the data of the last decade where deer take or pop went down.
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I will take their numbers over the nonexistent numbers of the DECs critics.the biggest problem is they have no idea how many deer there are..no mandatory check in.. my town take was 100 buck and 99 anterless acording to them.. (its 7 miles long by 5 miles wide) on 300 acres we took 8 buck and 10 doe.. so we took 10% of total take? one square mile is 640 acres... if i add in the neighbors 4 buck and 5 doe..we are at 15% of total take? on only 500 acres? there are 19700 acres in the town(35 square miles) numbets are way way off.... so how can they manage anything? its up to the indivduals to manage their own herd by usuing what is issued...just cause you have a tag doesnt mean you have to or should fill it..
That said I agree that mandatory check stations would tighten up numbers...still many of those who already fail to report would probably continue to do so even with mandatory check stations.
The reporting system is so easy and we get plenty of tags, why not report?
I just don't get it unless you want to shoot more than 2 bucks a season.
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I laughed pretty hard at that.I thought we were talking about buck hunting, not your Friday night bar standards...lol
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For me the process is this fast:
- Ass relative to shoulders
- belly relative to brisquit
- I don't think a particular age I think mature or not.
And then it's no or go....btw I'll shoot what I make for a 2 yr old on public land if he is nice.
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They add permits because less than 1/6 issued are filled.
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http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/deerplan2012.pdf
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Phade if you want me to link the deer management plan where it specifically enumerates Population Management as it's #1 priority...I know you already know this but I'll go get it.If the state has 1 main reason, they'd be enforcing things a little bit differently, don't you think?
I don't see any doe required harvests if you buy a tag.
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I think it will bring some old guys back to archery season...that's all I meant.For the life of me, I can't see xbows bringing too many people into the sport. If any, it will literally be only a handful of people which will be insignificant in the scheme of things. Most of the people who will take up xbows will be gun hunters, who somehow think xbow hunting will make things easier for them in comparison to compound bows. Many will probably give it up after a few years when they find out it wasn't as easy as they first thought. LOL
I completely agree with your second point. If anyone really thinks the DEC gives one hoot if the buck you kill is a 10 point compared to a spike, you are sadly mistaken. The antler restriction garbage is nothing but a pacifier to the cry babies who can't kill a decent buck and think AR's will be their salvation.
Anyone who thinks the state gives a flying whatever about "hunting tradition," is also sadly mistaken.
Take a look at what's happening in the places where hunters can't get it done...hired hands and thousands of $$$ to kill 20 deer. Some municipalities preferring to neuter their herd than allow hunting.
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People can choose to hunt for different reasons, but the state agency has 1 main reason and that coincides with the public's at large. Buck that and soon you won't have any buck at all.People hunt for different reasons. That's the great thing about hunting. You can do what pleases you within the confines of the sport.
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Do you only see and shoot at running deer?how many people here have enough time to look a deer over before he is out of sight? I rarely hunt fields, almost all my time is spent in the woods. You really think you can guess a deer's age that quick? No way.......
You hunting the big fields down your way? What time do those big bucks come out, after legal shooting hours?
We have gone down this road before as far as aging and my views of it....
I hunt in big and small woods, sometimes near field edges but not usually. I typically see deer about 70-100yds out and typically harvest inside 30 yds...sometimes it feels like forever before they get in range.
I had plenty of time in the 30 seconds last 11/3 to determine I had a good 3 or 4 yr old despite the short rack (and he was inside 10 yds when I arrowed him)...jaw boards confirmed.
It's wildlife biology not theoretical physics and it's intended to use as a guide to try to be a mindful and selective buck hunter.
If we all know your views then why be the 2nd guy (1st smartass) to post on the new topic?
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I've been disappointed by nearly every retail store and brand on earth.
BPS in Auburn is convenient but rarely has items that match the internet or catalogue.
Same with the Cabellas down in Eastern PA.
I personally find all large retailers to be nearly equally inept...other than guns I buy most of my stuff online or from my archery pro.
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You gotta make the call to shoot before you get the teeth...thus the need to be able to "age on the hoof."I like to age them in my shed.........via teeth.
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I can't stand the "I'll wait for a big buck I'm too lazy to shoot more does."The trick is finding enough hunters who will fill them. I don't come close to filling all mine,super sportsman plus 2 dmaps,because I don't need that much meat.
It's just me and the wife at home now. Two deer are plenty for us and frankly I give a bunch of the ground away. Sure I take a deer here and there to give away,but now much work am I willing to do to give them away,and I'd rather sit and wait for a buck of shootable size then,take a doe for another.
What we need is more hunters,not more tags per hunter .
But don't worry what with crossbows now legal,I d imagine all the deer will be killed with in 2 or 3 days and the dec's goal will be exceeded........
In this state you can drop a doe and continue to wait around for your antlers.
Then you want more slob hunters to pressure the deer more and somehow that will result in more deer harvests?
That's what we need an expansion to the opening-day-only orange army to shoot more yearling bucks.
Finally you take a shot at xbows which in fact will bring in some new hunters that you are requesting.
Population management is the DECs #1 priority of its deer management plan and is practically the general publics only reason to tolerate hunting.
Fill DMPs early and often.
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All my berry plants are about 2/3 full ripe with about 1/3 still green. 7j. This includes wild and cultivated blacks and raspberries.
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Moms and the babies sure are in good shape. Bucks look real good too. Maybe 75 lbs. of meat good, LOL.
Shows how were adapted the deer herd really is in New York. Tough old winter didn't even throw them a curve.
It sure did help that it was one of the largest masts on record, hard and soft. Plenty to eat all winter.
Got plenty of healthy deer on my lease as well, check out this fawn:
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I just snapped this pic of my loaded lakeside compsular which produces heavy biennially:
There was not a single apple in this tree during last years record apple mast.
Like I said biennial bearing is a general rule and not one that is always observed, but more often than not it's the culprit for an empty tree.
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I believe you for sure about your apples as it is not necessarily the case that every tree will fall into a biennial fruit bearing habit.I have to address the "wild Apple's produce every other year" You guys have seen me post pics of some of my wild Apple's and some of them produce. bumper crops every year...in fact better than my cultivated cortland's ....empire and mutsi(spelled that wrong)...also the saplings from it produce very early... 3 years and heavy...stinking rabbits girded 3 I'd planned on transplanting this spring ....
So keep a good eye on what the wild apples do and if you do find one, like some I have...protect saplings around them for transplanting......
However most wild mast trees have atleast a biennial cycle this includes apples, pears and plums.
From the University of Maine cooperative extension:
"Failure to form flowers is also caused by biennial bearing. Apples, pears and some types of plums have a biennial bearing habit, meaning that every other year the tree produces only a small number of flowers. This is followed by a year with profuse bloom and a large crop of fruit. Biennial bearing is a complex phenomenon caused by the presence of fruit at the same time that next years’ flowers begin to form. In summer, prior to the season in which they bloom, the first stage of flower development occurs inside the young developing buds. The undeveloped flowers remain very small until new growth begins the following spring. A large number of fruit present on the tree in early summer will inhibit flower formation. Biennial bearing can be alleviated by removing some of the fruit in late spring, a practice known as fruit thinning. To be effective in promoting flower formation, fruit thinning needs to be completed within three weeks of bloom or by mid June in Maine. The sooner thinning is done after bloom, the more effective it will be in preventing biennial bearing. Hand thinning does not completely prevent biennial bearing, but will lessen it to an extent depending on how early it is done and how many fruit are removed."
http://umaine.edu/fruit/growing-fruit-trees-in-maine/lack-of-fruitfulness/
Cool idea transplanting the saplings!
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DMP going up another 17% ....
in Deer Hunting
Posted · Edited by Meat Manager
#1 in terms of who gets to say how many is too many. That's what human density means and that is why they are going crazy trying to get your lazy large ass to shoot more does.
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