Buckstopshere

Right, they look different now if one compares the brow tines. But the first one was taken on Oct. 8, the second on Oct. 15th. The brow tine could have been broken in a fight. The broken brow tine should not be used as criteria for that reason... imo. Seems like here in Allegany County bucks break their antlers up as a rule...not an exception. Some hunters think it is the same deer...see above. I think they are different mainly because of the body shape as much as anything...I think the second buck looks older, heavier, more of a pot gut, and more of a square muzzle.

I don't use any urine or liquid lures...I don't pee in the scrapes either. Not saying it doesn't work. Lots of guys do and swear by it. I have watched too many bucks and does spooked on trail cams by store bought lures. Not saying that the real stuff (actual 100% urine taken from does and bucks) doesn't work, just that the stuff I have tried doesn't, and it is proven not to work by vid clips and photos on the trail cams. But I am experimenting with some new stuff...We shall see. Cameras don't lie. All I do to attract bucks is cut an overhanging limb off a hot scrape and zip-tie it where I want the scrape to be. Maybe cut another one, and another one that I find and zip-tie a bouquet of them on the scrape where I want it. You won't believe how it draws in the bucks and does! Sure... a lot of the action will be at night...especially now. But just prior to the rut peaking...the bucks will be on their feet in the daytime hitting their favorite scrapes, looking for love in the wrong places (i.e. at the zip-tied scrape under my stand....hopefully! I killed a nice buck last year coming into one and passed on a lot including a dandy 8 pt. that may be one of the "twins." I have been experimenting and writing about it for six years.

I think I've got two different bucks on one property, hitting my zip-tied overhanging branches...things are just starting here in Allegany County. The one was photoed a week ago on 10/8, the other last night (10/15) at two different zip-tied scrape sites. They could be the same buck, just with a broken brow, but I don't think so...Do you think it is the same buck or different critters?

Thanks! Yeah, things are heating up. The first rut cycle is starting up and bucks are really beginnging to hit my zip-tied scrapes. I got two bucks that are twins...just about a least I think they are. One was at a mock scrape 10/8 and the other last night (10/15.) The second one has broken brow tine, ...possibly the same buck with it broken off? I don't think so...I think I have a couple twins on the property. I'll post it over on the trail cam page.

Yeah, the less disturbance the better imo. You are timed just right for some action as they open it up. Pop in, don't leave scent...pop out. Too close and too late for trimming unless you get lucky. You'll just spook the big boys and old girls away...and they are the ones you want hitting that scape.

If the scrape is not where I want it to be, I cut the Overhanging Branch, open my pack and put it in a plastic bag, transport it to where I want it and zip-tie it to an existing scrape near my stand and/or camera, or keep it in the freezer for later use. As far as peeing in a scrape goes...I have tried in a number of times over the years and it always seems to kill a scrape. I have no doubt it works for some...must be something about my chemistry only thing I can figure. I sure wish it worked.

How to attract bucks and does without using bottled scents or food plots...zip-tie a rub-line. I have been obsessed for many years with zip-tying overhanging branches, cut from scrapes and transported to a site where I want to set up hunting, and/or set up a camera. Here is a new way to augment it...zip-tie a rub-line. There were no rubs on this property, but I hunt on another property with a ton of field rubs. I cut three of them and created my own little rub-line to augment the zip-tied overhanging branch by zip-tying the rubs to saplings next to the zip-tied scrape. A nice 2.5 year-old came in yesterday at 5:30 pm, obviously enjoying almost as much as me.

That's interesting Pa-Lawman. How would one get a bottle of your clear stuff? And do you have buck urine? I would like to test it.

I think that when you say "drippers"...it could mean any old scent...Not that you didn't do due diligence in getting the best you could...but somebody did the math on how many bottles are sold by some companies....and it is incredible how many gallons of deer pee they got...and it is diluted. So many varibles. I am not saying that all deer pee is bogus...just that it's a crap shoot. And you might ruin your best chance at a brag buck this season. Just sayin'. Forget all the gizmos as Sam says. But boot rubber. Get in the woods, out of the tree, find scrapes. Scout. Snip the branches and augment your setup. Have to do it quickly now...because their patterns will be established.

Sam's right, I like to find a flat spot...that's important, not too thick, not too open, and on the upwind (prevailing winds or thermals) side of my stand, if at all possible. A trail intersection is the best. You don't need to bend a sapling...just strap the zip-tied branches to the limbs of the closest sapling or tree. They will trash it with their antlers, so make sure it is rugged. I just got back from checking my cameras, and Mr. 7 pt. showed up at one of my setups last night...the info on the bottom of the photo is correct. I am going to be putting some miles on this afternoon, hunting for new scrapes to augment my setups. Things are gona really pop soon as this full moon begins to wane.

Very interesting John, but like they say, "if you give a man enough rope..." What I like about zip-tied branches from other scrapes is...it's simple. Find a hot scrape somewhere else, cut the branch, zip-tie it to the scrape where you want it. No muss, no fuss, - and no "hanging ropes" in the woods. After some of the big bucks I've missed, I don't want to be tempted! Though some people might encourage me to try it!

Sam and Trophy33: You gotta try the zip-tie overhanging branch from another area...so the bucks where you are feel challenged...and the does are intrigued. It will blow your minds! Enjoy!

Izayah12: It is not a bag hanging on the scrape, if that's what you mean in the photo...those are zip-ties, cable ties, that attach the overhanging branch. I cut an overhanging branch off a hot scrape from another area, but transport it in a bag to keep ambient odors off it in the truck, and then, zip-tie it to a scrape I am watching and/or have a camera on. A branch from a new area brings in new scent from other bucks and does...and the resident deer can't seem to resist it, and then adding their "two scents" to the branch themselves...which enhances it more.

More info on the zip-tied scape on my Facebook page: //www.facebook.com/Oak.Duke.whitetail.page

I'm right here. Been too busy. "Mock scrapes" work very well indeed. But, I have been fooling with them since the early 80's...and have learned a few things through trial and error. I have killed a bunch of bucks and does coming into them and standing under the Overhanging Branch. Yes, I am obsessed with them and have a hard drive full of videos and photos of bucks and does at my zip-tied scrapes. I prefer to call them zip-tied scrapes because the emphasis is on the branch...not the pawed up area on the ground. Without the overhanging branch, the scrape does not exist. The ground scrape, the pawed up soil is only ancillary...a by product, and not important. Urine is not important. If you want to enhance a scrape...forget urine. Wear out some boot rubber and find some hot scrapes, snip the overhanging branch, put it in a plastic garbage bag, and zip-tie it to the scrape you are hunting over. That's all you need to do. Many commercial urines (or whatever they put in the bottles) have ruined uncountable scrapes for me. However, I have killed some nice bucks when using them...but for every buck I killed over a scrape using lures...five of them have "gone dead." I have 8 trail cams on zip-tied scrapes now on three different hunting properties, miles apart. Things are beginning to heat up. Notice the "bouquet" of zip-tied branches this buck is hitting on Monday 10/6/14.

Thanks Lawdwaz for the kind words, and glad you enjoyed the article. Terry: I did not mean to put people who hunt out of blinds or any other type of gobbler hunting down. 'Course I don't think "limbing" them, or shooting them out of their roost is much sport (sometimes they stay up in the trees into legal shooting hours.) I tried to point out the way things have changed in the woods since gobbler season began here in New York, back in the early 70's here in Allegany County.

Was that buck found south of Andover?

Some deer must not have any blood in them. Especially these big bucks. Know the kind well, shoot at them, go look for blood and there is not a drop. Must be another one of those bloodless whitetails.

If you are a deer hunter...this photo says it more eloquently than any words can. http://www.wellsvilledaily.com/outdoors/guide/x1238776364/New-York-Youth-Hunt-8-point-buck-taken?photo=0

It was quiet here in Allegany County...bow hunters bow hunted, squirrel hunters shot squirrels, leaf peekers peeked....quiet...except for the war hoops and thrills from the young hunters shooting their first deer! http://www.wellsvill...k-for-Scio-teen But somewhere in the state, I'm sure somebody will figure out something bad to say about it.

Nice buck Phade! Congrats!

Nice shot! Congrats!

Doc: I do not see how any amount of software could ever take into consideration the amount of falisification that occurs. For instance...kind of difficult to be politically correct about this one, but...what if a certain group of hunters called in, or verified online that they killed does so that the game department would think that their management goals were achieved there and so that the following year, the DMU permits would be cut back...or remain the same...allowing for a larger population. I could dream up other scenarios, real or imagined for individuals to report their take falsely. Matter of fact, even under a perfect, Utopian scenario of 100% reporting, a lot of hunters would not know their correct DMU (some of the lines go through the woods and we need a GPS to put down the right DMU or even state (down here where I live on the Pa. border.) According to the DEC, many hunters do not know what town they kill their deer in. They more than occassionally, write down the closest town or village...which is incorrect...not thinking that it matters... And that's not to mention all the honest mistakes good people make. 100% in anything that pertains to man's infaliability, my old friend, is a pipe dream.

Yes, you are right, they are two statistical computations. However, one is known (the take is...well, at least it is statistically verified and is calculated using the reporting figure and then the process is verified by an acounting entity that has a reputation and certification in the statistial verification business...if you noted a bit of a sarcastic tone there, you were right.) The other will never be known. That's right, we will never be able to pin down the population of deer in a specific area...for a number of reasons. I know, everyone wants to know exactly how many deer are out there at a given time, but there are some real problems in even expecting an answer to the question. All the deer check stations, reporting systems, infrared fly overs, deer poop counts (don't laugh, that's what they do in Texas) can never tell us how many deer are out there. And really, knowing the exact actual number at any point in time is not as important as having a yardstick to measure the trend...and that is what the buck index or kill is all about. I know, it is a hard thing to get your mind around. Who can say how many deer are actually out there in any given place in time? Nobody...and nobody ever will. There has always been this hew and cry about knowing the exact number of deer at any specific time...and then we could set accurate tag allocations. But that concept is like a dog chasing his tail... We may know the number of deer that survive the hunting season on our property, but how many of those will succumb to natural causes? Then there is the fawn drop...was it a good one? How many deer are on our land in February, May (does the deer population double?...and then come November? The actual number is constanting changing...it tells us nothing...so what we need is a statistical yardstick...something to tell us what the population is doing. That's the buck index. My gut is that there is something fishy when the buck index in Pa.'s 3A and 2G are exactly the same...something is wrong and maybe worse than it appears! When one delves in the Pa. reporting rates, it is a tremendously low percent...like 25%. New York uses fluctuating percent, usually around 65%. The "fly in the ointment" is the reporting rate percentage and how that is calculated.

IN Pa. Unit 2G, the southern portions of McKean, Potter, Tioga and Elk county is comprised of 4,250 square miles. There was an estimated 6,500 bucks killed there during the 2011 season, dropping from an estimated 6,700 in 2010. That gives that area a buck index of 1.57, lower than some Units in the general Adirondack Region. IN Pa. North of Unit 2G is 3A. It butts up against the border of New York state with its northern border, swings over past Rt. 15 south of Elmira, NY, crosses it and and runs 105 miles west to Bradford, Pa., then drops down to Lantz Corners, comprising, 2100 square miles. If 3,300 bucks were killed there last year, the computation would be that the buck index is exactly the same as in 2G, 1.57. One would be hard-pressed to find any other heavily wooded and rolling hills and farming areas in the Northeastern US with such a low density of antlered bucks per square mile. Coupled with that, the future is even worse! The doe kill last season in North central Pa. was out of control (in an emotional sense!) And the PGC upped the antlerless permits in 2G for the 2012 season! Upping the number to 33,000 from 23,000. Unit 3A remained the same at 26,000. This is criminally insane. Of course when comparing to a vast region like the Adirondacks is not quite statistically accurate because though the Adirondacks has been considered as having a low deer density due to it's extreme historic winter kills and the resultant management mandates, the "'daks" contains units that vary in deer density from 1.8 bucks per square mile in Unit 6C to .04 in 5C. My point is...with an admitted bit of hypebole, if Northcentral Pa.'s deer population is in the same ball park as the Adirondacks, it is ludicrous and the worst mismanagement of nature, bending over to the special interests of big business since the use of DDT and Aldrin in the 1960s and 1970s.