sits in trees

i think this is a thread that does nothing for us as hunters, we should have tolerance amongst hunters, and respect the idea that we have differant methods and styles of hunting. i find that hunters are way to critical of each other and often sound like a bunch of britches bickering about the most meaningless things. as far as state land is concerned i hunt it every year and am seeing less and less hunters. back in the 70s state land was like WW2 Stalingrad, but today with the addition of hundreds of thousands of acres of state land and the reduction of hundreds of thousands of hunters alot of NY state lands are under hunted. probable just what the antis want, once our numbers are small enough a ban on hunting in state lands and parks, don't think it's impossible, we have already seen bans on motor vehicles in certain state parks out west(better have a horse to get that elk out) also no lead bullets in other areas, and hunting bans on certain state lands in NY because of bird nesting?? lets forget about why we hate each other so much and focus on the war right in front of us.....

wow a die hard tough, do it the hard way John Wayne kinda guy like you Doc looking to find the easy way out by using a rifle, my GOSH ???

you can use it during rifle and muzzle loader season. that pretty much wraps it up, get involved write letters for full inclusion, thats the next step....

well i have to say this about sums it up, well said sir!

aaawwww Doc, come on does one really need an ignore feature to not have to be exposed to something that really upsets them like crossbows and youth hunting upsets you. if it makes you so depressed and gives you tummy aches :'( that the NY hunting scene is going to have some changes in the near future just don't jump right into every thread that has the word crossbow in it's subject title :'( :'( . and besides Doc we know you just can't stay away, LOL...

First of all, as I have pointed out in other posts, as long as we have special seasons we each will decide what is appropriate in those seasons. Yes, we all have opinions ..... shame on us. I believe that you have an opinion that crossbows should be crammed into bow seasons. I happen to not agree ..... so have me arrested ..... lol. The NYB happens to agree with me on that point ..... I'm glad. And guess what, I have an opinion on muzzleloaders having their own season. Well, I am still waiting for anybody to explain why muzzleloaders as currently described by law has any disadvantage when compared to a shotgun. I'm not even going to mention single shot shotguns. So based on that I have formed an opinion ..... so shoot me. Oh, and by the way I do not run the NYB so my opinions are just that ..... my opinions. Now as far as what the NYB has done for NYS bowhunters, below are some of actions, and accomplishments over the years. Perhaps if you were a member, your criticisms would be a bit more accurate and have a bit more credibility and you would not have written that first sentence of the quoted post. If you are interested enough to work your way all the way down the list, I think you will be amazed at all the activities and accomplishments that they have fought for and won for bowhunters and others. Doc -------------------------------------------------------- 1993 First Youth Camp held at Turkey Trot Acres, Candor NY. Sent members to (US Sportsmen’s Alliance) workshops to prepare the organization for the battles ahead with “anti-hunting” groups. 1997 First Physically Challenged hunt held in Savannah NY. 1998 All nine regions of NY were represented by NYB Regional Reps 2001 Created the NYB Scholarship program. 2002 First Youth hunt held outside of Syracuse NY fall 2002. 2004 Assisted in establishing a 3D archery range for the United States troops serving in Iraq. 2005 Helped form North American Bowhunting Coalition made up of state, national and provincial bowhunting organizations thereby representing tens of thousands of bowhunters. 2007 1,000 young adults have been exposed to archery and bowhunting since our Youth Camp program began. Developed the program, “Adaptive Equipment for the Aging and Physically Challenged Bowhunter”. 2008 Assisted (National Archery in Schools Program) NASP program being started in NY with money and instructor training. First “Wounded Veteran” hunt as part of our “Camo to Camo” program. 2009 Recipient of the prestigious Pope & Young Stewardship Award. Recipient of the NYS Conservation Council President’s Award. Legislative Accomplishments 1995 Gained bowhunters the use of Deer Management Permits (DMP’s) during last 10 days of the southern zone early bow season. 1996 Allowed usage of Special 2nd deer (either sex) Tag during late bow season. 1999 Added 6 more days of DMP use for bowhunters. Use of Deer Management Assistance Permits (DMAPS) during bow seasons. 2001 Added one month to Suffolk County archery-only season (from Nov 1 to Oct 1 opener). Changed definition of legal bow from “…arrow that can propel a legal broadhead 150 yards…” to a 35 lb. minimum draw weight. 2002 In May NYB helped alter DEC Conservation Fund/deer management budget which included; 2nd tag (antler-less) for archers during early & late special seasons in both zones. Can use unfilled “regular” season buck only tag as an either sex tag during the special South Zone late seasons & Sept. portion of North Zone season. Can use “regular” season tag as an either sex tag in areas restricted to longbow only hunting, including regular season in Westchester Co. and any season in Suffolk Co. Residents who purchase lifetime, big game licenses and move out of state can now purchase other big game licenses at resident fee rates. Lowered fees for junior hunters & trappers. Allow use of DMP’s for junior archers & no extra fee charged Junior archers can hunt during all the “regular” firearm seasons with either sex tag 2002 Other accomplishments achieved by Fall of 2002 included; DMP use for bowhunters expanded to the entire season. Big game hunters can consign up to two DMP’s to other hunters. Hunters who have tagged-out may continue to participate in the hunt for the remainder of the big game seasons as long as they do not attempt to shoot at another deer. Supported passage of DEC Automated License System (DECALS). Expanded use of DMAPS from 2 to 4 tags per hunter in Regions 8 & 9. 2004 Allow for use of DMP’s during archery seasons by non-resident hunters. Passage of venison donation fund bill, allowing for volunteer contribution of $1 when purchasing sporting licenses. Added approximately 2 weeks to the beginning of Westchester Co. archery-only season (from Nov. 1st to match the Southern Zone season). Expand black bear hunting opportunities in the Catskill and Allegany ranges Defeat DEC proposal for a “youth” (16 & 17 year old) firearm deer hunt on 2nd last weekend of southern zone, early archery season. 2005 Prevented DEC from placing a muzzleloader season into or before Southern Zone archery-only season. Other Legislative Accomplishments; ●Established numerous contacts with state legislators, acting as their resource on bow issues. Meeting with them on a regular basis. ●Established a working relationship with the DEC. Meeting with them on a regular basis. ●Kept the crossbow out of the archery-only seasons & areas of the state. ●Promoted the harvest of antler-less deer to assist the DEC in management objectives. ●Established urban deer management archery hunts in various parts of the state - Irondequoit, Painted Post and Albany, NY; while preserving and promoting other programs in Westchester & Suffolk Counties. ●Established legislative E-Mail Alert System. General Organization Accomplishments ● Continually fighting the anti-hunter movement. Examples; participated in a demonstration on Long Island to counter the “anti-hunters” protesting the opening of bow season. Attended a county legislature meeting where anti hunters had assembled to mislead our elected officials. ● Have opposed the “anti-hunters” attempts to promote use of contraceptives to control deer herds. ● Thousands of dollars donated to promote various hunter education programs. ● Developed “Camo to Camo” program which sends gift boxes to American troops serving in the Mid-east. To date over 500 boxes (3,500 pounds!) have been shipped! Program also sends wounded veterans on free hunts. ● Provides specialized equipment for physically challenged individuals. ● NYB has donated thousands of dollars and our members have volunteered thousands of hours to various charities throughout New York State including (and not limited to) the American Red Cross, Hunt of a Lifetime, American Cancer Society. ● Since its inception NYB has been a contributor to the NYS Venison Donation Coalition program. ● Offers opportunities for members to participate in Adopt-A-Highway Cleanup Programs and other community based projects. NYB at Work in Iraq Tupper Lake Archer and NYB Region 5 Representative, Mike Savage, spearheaded an effort to get targets and equipment donated and sent to the troops in Iraq. Mike started the project after reading a letter in the January-February issue of Bowhunter magazine, written by Major Robert Gwinner of the U.S. Army's 8th Infantry, 1st Battalion. In the letter, Maj. Gwinner stated that he was building a small bow range adjacent to his unit's small-arms practice range. He also described archery as "a good break for our soldiers." Mike responded to Maj. Gwinner by e-mail and stated that the Tupper Lake Archers wanted to donate a target and he then inquired about what other archery items the troops needed to complete their archery range. Very soon an e-mail was received with a wish list that included arrows, field tips, practice broadheads, releases, targets and other gear. Through Mike’s efforts, donations of cash and merchandise came pouring in and several packages of archery related gear found their way into Iraq. The result is a range at the forward position of a fire zone; currently home for these heroes. just no interest in those crossbow threads huh Doc??? maybe if you stopped posting in all these crossbow threads so diligently they would just go away and you could rest in peace .

no Doc, it's not the only thing, an early primitive muzzle loader season and an early weekend youth rifle hunting season are things you will be hearing about from "ME" in the near future....i'm not going to lighten up until we have full inclusion of crossbows in your archery season so i can shoot "YOUR" deer with my crossbow ;D anything thats gets younger hunters into the woods and keeps older hunters in the woods is what i'm pushin for DOC, my fellow brother hunter, LOL..

yea Doc, once again your way off target, if you haven't noticed the crossbow threads are the ones generating most of the interest on this forum with hundreds of replies, and yes Doc most of them being very positive. and Doc if there's so little interest in the crossbow threads why are you almost always guaranteed to be one of the first to chime in, LOL, No, I am just noting that of the 35 messages you have posted here, all but 5 of those were pushing your agenda of crossbows. It seems that you have some sort of fixation, and almost nothing else about hunting that interests you. Now as each crossbow topic dies off, you are frantically scampering from forum to forum feverishly trying to fill them up with your little crossbow rantings to keep your only avenue of interest alive. I just thought it was a little weird is all. Doc sounds like your a little worried Doc....yes crossbows are on the top of my list and guess what, i ain't the only one brother! ;D

yea Doc, once again your way off target, if you haven't noticed the crossbow threads are the ones generating most of the interest on this forum with hundreds of replies, and yes Doc most of them being very positive. and Doc if there's so little interest in the crossbow threads why are you almost always guaranteed to be one of the first to chime in, LOL,

well in NY's new crossbow bill they shot down the use of crossbows for handicapped hunters but threw them a bone and told them you are allowed to attach this "Draw Lock" thingy to your compound which you cock with your feet like a chimp. well i emailed 7 of the top vertical compound bow companies out there and asked them about using a draw lock device. 5 out of the seven responded and i was told by all 5 of them that they DO NOT recommend the use of a draw lock and that they wouldn't be held responsible for anything that might happen if you decide to put one on one of their bows? also they stated very clearly that any damage to one of their bows which had a draw lock on it would VOID the warranty????

http://www.recordonline.com/_images/thLogoNEW.gif[/img] Dirks: Bowhunters hurt crossbow enthusiasts Published: 2:00 AM - 07/13/10 For the first time in decades, we may finally have the opportunity to legally use crossbows to hunt big game in New York. In June, the Senate and the Assembly passed a bill that would give hunters in our state another hunting weapon to use. It still needs the governor's signature to become law, but before we celebrate what is clearly a step in the right direction, there's some bad news, too. It comes from the legislative efforts of a small body of well-organized bow hunters known as New York Bowhunters Inc. For years, this group has fought against any crossbow use, arguing that the crossbow is not a bow. Instead, they say, it's rifle and could only be used during rifle season, if it was legalized. You can thank this merry band of hunters that have seen to it that you and I can't use a crossbow during the regular archery season. For sure, the group does a lot of great work with our youth and veterans during the year. It is for anything, as long as it isn't deemed by the group as a threat to the regular and late archery seasons. I might remind you that New York Bowhunters adamantly opposed a state Department of Environmental Conversation proposal several years ago that would have allowed a special "youth only" gun hunt the weekend prior to gun season opening. Kids encroaching on "our" archery season? Never, said the New York Bowhunters. And so it didn't happen. They are for our youth as along as the youngsters don't encroach upon the sacred territory of the regular archery season. We have special youth only weekend hunts for ducks, pheasants and turkeys, but not big game, thanks to the work of groups like New York Bowhunters. All this noise from a group that has at most, 4,000 members statewide. So while many of us are happy to at least make the crossbow legal in broader applications in our state, we have more work to do. Overcoming the demands of the New York Bowhunters and allowing crossbows in the regular archery seasons is next. David Dirks' outdoors column appears weekly. Contact him through his Web site, www.dirksoutdoors.com, or write P.O. Box 87, Westtown, NY 10998.

I think you are probably right. As I understand it, they are currently not allowed in the primary bow season. If it stays that way, there won't be much of an impact. As far as them being something that catches on, I think that without the linkage to the early bow season, there is not much about them that is very attractive for hunters. The only real appeal would be for gun hunters who would like an earlier crack at the deer herd without the rigors of becoming proficient with a bow. That is the only real appeal that I can see that they would have for anybody. Doc you might have forgotten a few groups there Doc, the appeal would also be for people who like to shoot crossbows, (yea some of them might be rifle hunters god forbid), and older hunters who can no longer effectively use a vertical bow. and using the argument about having to sustain the rigors of hunting with a compound bow are pretty weak, if you arent well practiced with crossbows you will about as effective as a vertical bow hunter who also hasnt practiced.

it has nothing to do with todays vert compound bow hunters being such purist's that scopes are not being used on their bows. if there were any practical way to mount a scope on a compound vert bow it would have been done by now.

yea sounds like a living hell up there

i got this off another forum and this guy seems to really size up NY and what sportsman in this state are up against. not only are we up against numerous anti hunting, animal loving/rights groups and lawmakers who wanna stomp our hunting heritage into the mud but we got guy's/groups who call themselves hunters who's life work in this state is keeping other hunters from using a weapon of thier choice?? Read Below.. Quote: [table] [tr][td] Originally Posted by moosemike http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/images/freshorange/buttons/viewpost.gif[/img] Is there a reason not to be happy with what you got in NY?[/t][/t] ????? Are you kidding? besides the beautiful scenery, there is NOTHING to happy about in this ridiculous state , Ill run a few reason out there for ya. -Gun control is our politicians favorite pastime -magazine, bayonet, pistol grip, and flash surpressor restrictions -Pistol permits are a long shot for anyone whos ever been arrested (not convicted)for anything, and even if you are lucky enough to get one, theres restrictions on how, and when you can carry, or even possess it, and god forbid you were to ever use it to defend yourself! in a home invasion youre legally obligated to flee. -98$ resident hunting licenses!!!!! -35$res. fishing license!!!!!! 30$ public land boat permit!!!!! + boat regi $$$$$ - some of the highest property taxes despite having some of the worst roads you ever saw. - you cannot possess a firearm and a bow, during archery season, so basically I cannot duck hunt in the morning, and bow hunt deer in the after noon without going home and dropping off the gun and picking up the bow. Even LEOs cannot carry a sidearm while bowhunting. -trigger locks are mandatory while transporting any firearm in your car. -Even if you go through the grueling process of getting a pistol permit, you still have to do a nics checks to buy a gun (WTFs the permit for then???) -the state has NO $$$$$$ despite the over taxation of everything, and is a hair away from bankruptcy ,meaning it will have to beg pimp daddy obamma for a bailout soon. -Bloomberg,schumer,paterson,gillibrand,the clintons,the UN...need I say more??? Tell me, is that pile of sht, something someone whos into hunting, shooting, and fishing, or just appreciates liberty, might not be happy about,the list goes on and on. NYS sucks!!!!!!!!! Oh yeah, thats not enough for the anti xbow knobs, right? lets allow the antihunting/antigun politicians, and legislature, to restrict us some more! screw all the folks who want to participate and enjoy the archery season with a user friendly X bow, might actally increase interest in hunting, oh no, we cant have that now can we? Gotta have the freakin woods all to ourselves cause we shoot our bows vertically.[/td][/tr][/table]

thats why we need to organize here in NY, when the only guy at the meeting is a clown from the NY bowhunters inc cartel thats what you get. can you imagine a crossbow as a poachers weapon??? ya i'm sure every jacklighting road cruising poacher cant wait to get a crossbow for poaching..

yea the 102 cooked me today!

hey Doc the vert compound bow was invented in the 70s, only 40 years ago and has in no way reached the end of the tracks as far as technology or performance, if that were the case we would still be driving Studebakers and flying cross country in prop planes.there will be advancements in crossbow technology and vert compound technology both, and those things will have to be delt with as we come to those bridges, 400 fps vert compound bows are just about here...

sorry Doc, you don't miss a trick do ya, I meant compound bow and will repost the full response to your post with the correction.....thanks for proof reading...

hey Doc the crossbow was invented in the 70s, only 40 years ago and has in no way reached the end of the tracks as far as technology or performance, if that were the case we would still be driving Studebakers and flying cross country in prop planes.there will be advancements in crossbow technology and vert compound technology both, and those things will have to be delt with as we come to those bridges, 400 fps vert compound bows are just about here...

So lets focus on the gadgets available for "bows". When will "bowhunters" start placing limits on what is/isn't proper add-on's to their bows and still feel their "bow" is no better than a xbow? Verticle bows have the same advantages as xbows (ie: triggers, scopes, string locking mechanisms, etc.) You don't seem to care what products enhance the compound bow, nor does the NYB. So why care if xbow are allowed, especially since both "now" share the same attributes? The argument concerning xbows is based solely on semantics. You bet. When I look at some of the accessories and crazy stuff we bowhunters have hung on our bows, it's obvious that we have just about given up on the idea of controlling the crazy techno-craze that has taken place. Who could ever have imagined back in the 70's when the ugly, relatively slow Allen Compound was introduced just what was to come? No wonder the attitudes toward archery have taken a "who cares" turn. And now we have a whole new platform to accelerate those technical advances. Imagine the things that can be done with a stock to work off of. All ready I have seen video of a prototype of a functioning repeating cross bow. Also, now I have seen a crossbow that has the bow mounted backwards with a few extra pulleys mounted. What that does for them I'm not sure, but I'm sure there is some tecnical advantage that someone found. And we haven't even reached the stage where the crossbow manufacturers are raking the maximum amount of R&D money yet. But that will come and technical advances that we can't even imagine yet will follow just as surely as they did with the compound. So yes, I do worry about the whole idea of changing and re-identifying legal archery equipment both past, present, and future. And I would think that anyone who values archery as a unique sport would be equally concerned, especially since it is obvious that we are on the cusp of a whole new round of such advances at a level of acceleratiion that we can't yet imagine. We really shouldn't be surprised that the muzzleloaders are starting to try to lay claim to portions of our seasons. We no longer define ourselves as a hunting sport of skill and limitations, and now we are taking another giant step in the direction of moving archery toward the guns. Furthermore, I think the crossbow will accelerate this attitude and soften opposition to muzzleloaders moving into what has traditionally been archery seasons by stirring in a majority that no longer has any real ties to the bow. Doc the repeater crossbow is just a joke invented by a guy(none hunter) who was looking for nothing more than a laugh, never intended for hunting use, and it couldnt be used for hunting do to laws that are already in place, and besides the thing runs on an electric motor that humms clicks and clacks the whole time it's in operation, i've seen it and would welcome anyone to use one in pursuit of deer so i could get a huge belly laugh!!OK Doc on a more realistic note the other crossbows that you mention with backward limbs and all those extra scary pulleys do absolutley nothing as far as FPS, those features are for nothing more than reducing the bows overall width and in most cases they are slower (FPS) than traditional crossbows. to sit there and scare yourself with these boogie men crossbow fairytails which are not based on any type of fact is a waste of time, i suggest that efforts made in scaring one self should be directed at the real enemy out there, the people who are working very hard with lots of money who wanna make your hunting season no existant...

you now just stepping back for a minute here. i'm a NY archery hunter and have been for decades, i hunt my own property and i hunt nearby state land. these are my observations. when i pull my truck up to state land during bow season, it's a rare thing to see more than one or 2 other bowhunters in the woods or parked on the road for an area that incompasses 20 thousand acres or so?? as a matter or fact the number of other bowhunters i see during bow season can be pretty much counted on 2 hands and i have hunted 4 counties here in the hudson valley over the years. we all know whats happening with hunter numbers in our state and we all know what the anti bowhunting groups out there wanna do to us, right? i think it's time for anyone who calls themselves a hunter and on the other hand says no crossbows in my woods better wake up already

more and more the truth is coming out and people are seeing whats really behind this huge anti crossbows in archery season thing. it has nothing to do with advantages, diadvantages, or wether a weapon can be shouldered or hand held, or you can shoot it with you feet or behind your back with mirrors, cocked, uncocked, thats all nonsense and most people who can reason see that. it's all about the remote possibility that allowing crossbows in archery will bring "more hunters into the woods during bow season", thats the plain truth!! yes when you tell an anti crossbow person that allowing crossbows into archery season will increase hunter participation in NY the first thig they say is "no it won't". when you tell them the woods will not be over run with hunters if we allow crossbows into archery season then the usual response is it will bring "hordes of undesirables into bow season". if you tell them it will help to reduce a bulging deer herd in NY they tell you "no it wont". if you tell them it won't effect deer numbers they tell you yes it will??? actually lately the only thing i've been hearing from the NY bowhunters leadership is CROSSBOWS don't belong in ARCERY season period, and thats because they have run out of reasons people will actually listen to....

i'm personally working on a crossbow design with 70 inch titanium limbs which can be pulled behind a pickup truck and placed on a mountain top which will group 4 inchs at 750 yds, i discussed the concept with some of the major crossbow manufactures like the PSE prez and he was all ears ;D Once again, again, again, again DOC, ballistically or in any other way crossbows have no advantage over vertical bows in the hunting woods. lets play a game, you name an advantage a crossbow has over a vert bow and i mention a disadvantage..it's an old game but i'm willing

below is an E-mail i just received from a anti crossbow guy in his feeble attempt to try and scare me..i think this shows who is really scared huh!! i really like the part about the coalition ;D PLEASE READ BELOW>>>>>> I was alerted to your push for crossbows in NY by a friend. He does a great job of monitoring all the crossbow forums for the coalition. AT, Excal, Crossbow Nation, etc. I gotta say that I like what I'm seeing. Thanks for the many posts and those of others that are going to help us as we make sure to keep the xguns out of the archery season. Be happy with what you got in NY. Keep posting up and make sure to have your friends post all the plans for your fight. Our guy in WI sends it onto us and we make sure our friends in the legislature understand your real plan. cheers! We'll be watching.