Pygmy

I don't intend to try to make a point using EXTREME examples, so I am telling this story just for the sake of conversation. When I was hunting caribou at Little Marten Lake in NWT in '94, I had an Inuit guide named George Konana. George was full blood Inuit and still basically made his living hunting and fishing. He was proud that he WORKED for a living, unlike most residents of his Arctic Village, who lived on the government dole. George had a camcorder, and on that camcorder, he showed me a tape of his 9 year old son shooting an 11 foot polar bear with a .222. Dropped him like a rock with a single shot right behind the ear. He felt that the .222 was a sensible polar bear rifle, and for him, I guess it was. There we go with shot placement again. George carried a .300 Win mag when he guided me, which he said belonged to his father. I asked him if he used that rifle for polar bear. He told me..." Nope...Ruins too much meat".

Nice report and pictures. I use a PAST recoil shield when shooting my rifles from the bench. I call it my "sissy pad". Actually that's not REALLY what I call it, but it's a polite euphemism. . Back when I was shooting shotguns from the bench, the PAST that I have was enough to prevent bruising, but it still hurt like hell. So I started placing a partially full bag of shot between the butt and my shoulder. That made the recoil tolerable. My favortie slug gun was actually quite comfortable to shoot. It's a Rem1100 2 3/4" 12 gauge. Due to its gas operation and the fact it weighs 10 pounds equipped with sling, scope, cantilever mount and comb riser, recoil is quite mild for a shotgun. Another factor was that I used Standard velocity 2 3/4" Win.BRI slugs, which recoil considerably less than the high velocity loadings and 3 inchers. They were very accurate and killed deer just fine out to 100 yards, after which they drop like rocks. I've shot my share of light, fixed breech slug guns from the bench over the years. They are downright brutal.

Fine old rifle, Bubba. That big hole at the top of the bull is a dandy group.

Hey Eagle..I just realized that this discussion is beginning to sound like the old Jack O'Connor vs. Elmer Keith contorversy, with Keith expounding the virtues of heavy bullets at moderate velocity and O'Connor touting lighter bullets at high velocity.... ;D ..... Old Elmer didn't think much of the .270 and didn't consider it adequate for deer. he did admit that it was a good EAGLE rifle ( no offense intended, hehehe)... ??? ... Back in those days many western states had bounties on eagles due to thier depredation on lambs and young game animals. He considered a .333 OKH with 250 grain bullets a sensible minimum for elk. The .270 was O'Connor's darling, and he was probably more responsible than any other individual for it's rise in popularity. In one article I read he said that of the 18 elk that he had shot at that date, 13 of them were shot with the .270 and 130 grain bullets. They were at opposite ends of the spectrum, but both were legendary hunters and both killed thier share of game. I suspect the most sensible position is somewhere in between... ...

I agree that the 30-06 accellerator would be a poor choice. However the biggest reason it is a poor choice is because it uses a lightly constructed bullet designed to explode on critters the size of woodchucks.. I'm not trying to say that SD is not important. I'm just saying that bullet construction is more important, within a certain range of bullet weight and velocity. From my experience and the experience of many other hunters, I believe a properly constructed bullet of 100 grains or more at a reasonable velocity WILL give ample energy and penetration to cleanly kill a whitetail at any decent shot angle. Moosemike's example of the roundball is a good one. Roundballs have a lousy SD, but my hunting partners and I have made many clean kills with .45 cal and .50 cal. roundballs. As far as I can see, with similar shot placement, they penetrate well and kill as well as most anything else.

What kills game is causing enough damage to stop vital organs or the CNS. If you disable the heart, lungs, liver, a major blood vessel or damage the spine or brain, the critter is going to die, usually within a matter of seconds. The stories that you hear of deer that are heart shot or double lung shot and run hundreds of yards are pure BS. Fluke occurences such as the one you describe can happen with any bullet. Sometimes projectiles change directions inside an animal's body and go off at odd angles. I have seen it happen with 400 grain shotgun slugs. In general bullets of 100 grains or more that are constructed stoutly enough for deer sized game will give sufficient penetration to cleanly kill whitetails with decent shot placement. There are hundreds of thousands ( if not millions) of dead deer that were taken with such time tested combos as the .243, .257 Roberts, .250 savage and 25-06 all with 100 grain bullets, as well as the .270 with 130 grain bullets to attest to that fact.

Hopefully you can field test them on a deer or three this year and give us a report..I suspect that with the velocity you'll be getting it will drop deer like lightning.. I also suspect it may be a little rough on the EATIN' meat, but if you shoot 'em in the ribs, it don't much matter.

At one time, any .308 bullet of less than 150 grains was designed for varmints. Any 130,125 or 110 grain .30 cal bullets were made with fragile jackets and were not good choices for deer bullets. However, things may have changed. Not being a .30 cal. shooter, I have not kept up with the latest bullet designs. I'm sure that monolithic bullets like Barnes X would be viable deer bullets in the lighter weights. As far as Nosler ballistic tips are concerned, Nosler has toughened up the jackets on some of it's BTs, because of complaints about the early ones being too fragile. I know the 7mm 120 grain has a beefed up jacket and an excellent reputation as deer bullet, and perhaps they have done the same with the 125 .308. Nosler usually designates them as either varmint or big game bullets when they sell them. Moosie, do they advertise the .308 BT as a big game bullet ?

That would be pretty cool, Larry.... You'd have to get yourself one of those safari jackets and a BWANA hat to wear while you're posing with the double rifle and your trophy whitetail... ;D ... Maybe you could get an African American friend to pose beside you in a loincloth, holding a spear. I'd have to pass on that, myself...I can no longer see the express style sights, and I'm too much of a wuss to shoot a .470 Nitro.... ??? .....

I think that the fact that society has allowed the kids to take charge is a major reason.. When I was a kid if you acted up in school you got the snot slapped out of you, either by the teacher, the principal, or both, and when you got home your parents made you EXTRA sorry... Now , not only can the teachers not touch the kids, but if thier PARENTS use corporal punishment on thier own kids they can be arrested...And the rotten little bastards KNOW it!!... Something is WAY wrong there...

I have a buddy who uses his .338 Win mag and his .416 Rem for deer...No problem as long as he likes to use them. There is no question about either round being ADEQUATE for whitetails...hehehehe....He doesn't go around telling folks that thier .243s or 30-30s are NOT adequate for deer. He just likes to shoot and hunt with his big boomers.

Doc, I believe that the optimum bullet weight concept ASSUMES an optimum powder charge for each bullet weight. It is also a very general guide and I just posted it for sake of conversation. Very often, for specific game or applications, heavier or lighter bullets might do a better job. Perhaps I can explain it better with an illustration. 30-06 Bullets are available ( with a few exceptions) from 110 grains to 220 grains. Most .30 cal. bullets of LESS than 150 grains are designed for varmints, so that narrows the range from 150 to 220 grains. The 165 shoots nearly as flat as the 150 with more energy. It also provides nearly as much energy as the 180, with a somewhat flatter trajectory. With bullets OVER 180 grains, velocity drops, with correspondingly LESS flat trajectory. So if someone wants an ALL AROUND bullet weight for the 30-06, 165 grains is a good place to start. Now if you are hunting BIG critters at moderate ranges ( 300 yards or less) it would make sense to use a 180, 200, or even 220 grain bullet. If you want to hunt light big game such as whitetails or pronghorns with the possibility of some long shots, the 150 might be a better choice.

The three most important elements of small game management, are habitat, habitat, and habitat, in that order. Given suffcient escape and nesting cover , small game will be there. Granted, natural population cycles, disease and predators are factors, but proper habitat is the key.

I'm looking for some new or once fired .300 Win mag casings at a reasonable price, or trade for some of the stuff I have listed above.

Doc.You're supposed to hold your BREATH when a car goes by... .... I walk frequently for exercise. For many years when I lived out in the boonies, I would sling one of my milsurp rifles to increase the workout, and in case I encountered some critter that needed shooting. Now that I'm living right in town, I think I might get some negative reactions if I walked around the main streets and residential areas with my M1 slung on my shoulder.. .. Running..hehehehehe. My running days are OVER. Last fall while goose hunting I walked over to pick up a downed honker and he stood up and started walking away. Not wanting to waste one of my expensive magnum shotshells, I decided to chase him down and wring his neck. RIGHT !!! I ran perhaps ten or twelve steps and the goose had already doubled his lead so I stopped, panting and wheezing, planted my feet and BOOM !! That was the end of that chase and the last time I try to run, especially in heavy boots and hunting clothes.

Doc commented that the guy may have already drawn his gun. I'm sure he had the gun in his hand as soon as he saw the cubs. He'd be damned DUMB if he didn't, unless he had no previous experience with grizzlies. That reminds me of a statement I read concerning old west gunfighters. The ones that survived quite a few gunfights, like Wild Bill Hickok, John Wesley Hardin and others. In most cases, these guys already had thier gun in hand before thier opponent even knew there was a PROBLEM.... ... When I was hunting in grizzly country, and was aproaching a situation where I even suspected there could be bear trouble ( like returning to a meat cache for another load to pack back to camp) I always had my rifle ( or at times a shotgun) at port arms, and we were talking LOUDLY to alert any bear of our approach.

It looked like it may have taken place in Alaska . Most places in AK have no specific bow season as such, just an open season where any weapon is allowed. Therefore it's common ( and prudent) for bowhunters to carry a large caliber handgun or even a short barreled shotgun while bowhunting for bear protection. I've hunted AK a number of times and seen my share of grizzlies. We never had a minute's trouble with any of them, but I sure would not want to be in grizzly country without some kind of firearm , just in case.

AS long as it is artificial lure only water, any plastic lure should be legal, scented or not. FLY FISHING ONLY, is a different matter.

The guy supposedly lives in Wayne County.Wayne county is in the southern zone. The guy said he got the deer behind his house on his own land.

Bball.........Sorry to leave out the .223. It is generally considered a varmint cartridge I was talking about deer and LARGER game... I don't have any problem with hunters using a .22 centerfire on deer, as long as they realize it's limitations and only take good shots. It also helps to use bullets designed for the job, I think Barnes X or Nosler partitions might be a good choice in the .223. I would avoid the extra explosive bullets designed for varmints.

I read an article sometime back that discussed the fact that each cartridge has an optimum bullet weight. This does not mean that other bullet weights are not useful and effective in a given chambering, but only that there is one bullet weight for each caliber that gives , on average, the best BALANCE of trajectory, energy, and performance for big game hunting. As I remember it, here are the optimum bullet weights for a few of our most popular cartridges. 25-06.........100 grain .270 Win.......130 grain 7mm08/.280/7x57.....140 grain 7MM Rem Mag.........160 grain .308 Win...............150 grain 30-06..............165 grain .300 Win mag......180 grain .338 Win mag......250 grain

My local legion Post is raffleing off a Marlin bolt action 30-06. I'm not sure of the model ,but I believe it is an XL-7 or something similar. It's hanging over the bar, so I have not had opportunity to handle it, but it is a fine looking rifle. It has a very attractive classic style walnut stock, blued metal and a recoil pad that is thick enough to do some good. It also has Marlin's version of the Savage accutrigger, which , according to what I have read, works very well. I'm planning to buy a few tickets for it, although I need another rifle like I need another hole in my head. Has anyone had any experience with these rifles ? In the past Marlin has made very acurate rifles, but the triggers sucked. Now with the accutrigger feature, this rifle may be a very viable alternative to a Rem 700, Win 70, or Ruger 77....

Larry..I haven't bothered to apply for PA elk due to long draw odds... I HAVE gone down a few times in September to view the critters when they are bugling, however. They have some monsters down there.

Congrats, Antlers, nice draw. I applied in Maine for years and years and finally gave up. Did VT and NH a few times with no luck either. I did manage to draw a tag in New Brunswick in 2004. This year I bit the bullet and booked a Newfoundland hunt, OTC tags and high success rates.

Yes indeed... Mine is in the mailbox on my front porch as we speak, waiting for Mr. Mailman to pick it up tomorrow. Have not checked today, but as of yesterday there were still over 11,000 permits left in 3A, so we stand a good chance of getting a bonus tag.