Upstater

Because these arguments are (as I said earlier) pointless and circular, this will be my last post on the subject. I only chimed in to begin with because I appreciate the efforts of Doc and the others who "get it" and care about the integrity of archery season as opposed to the "gimme something else to kill deer with anytime I want to" crowd. You, like your big tent brethren, are not an archery hunter, nor a bowhunter, but an opportunist. Gun hunter, bow hunter, rock thrower, whatever it takes to kill a deer, dagnabbit it's my right. Hell, the day somebody mentions a neat attachment for the front of that quad you probably ride to your ground blind for running 'em down you'll be the first one yelling for it. After all, it's all about giving you opportunities right? Now there's really nothing wrong with being an opportunist, but let's call a spade a spade here. Many of these arguments have a purely philosophical base - us stupid backwoods bowhunters believe that archery season is about bowhunting, and you opportunists see it as simply more hunting time that you don't have access to YET with whatever weapon you choose because, well just because! The world's full of opportunists, so why should hunting be any different right? Thankfully, the small majority of true bowhunters out there (like myself) "get it." You also repeatedly fail to address any of my salient points, i.e. why you continue to fight for something like x-guns to be included in archery season, but refuse to do anything to fight the dreaded ground blind, which, according to you, is every bit the threat to the season as x-guns are. Could it be that you really don't care so much about the dreaded ground blind and are more concerned with just getting more for YOU? Naw... The problem with statistics these days is that people on both sides of an issue like to distort facts to suit their agenda (just look at the current political situation as an example). You're probably thrilled with the Dems and Odumbo too, but that's another topic. You yourself have even set the argument up to be a win-win for you - no matter what I might present, your "similar conditions as NY" qualifier leaves the door open for you to poo-poo anything offered. However, the lurkers bored enough to follow along get that the only conditions that are germane are deer, bows, and x-guns. Anything else is a distraction. As I said, for the sake of giving the lurkers something to consider, here is an excerpt from an article in the Pgh Post Gazette where their outdoor writer did some research on the subject: Ohio: Crossbows have been legal since 1976. During the 2001-2002 season, the success rate of an estimated 88,000 vertical bow hunters was 19.8 percent, while the success rate of 106,000 crossbow hunters was 22.7 percent. In 2003-2004, 29,397 deer were taken with crossbows and 21,167 were taken with vertical equipment. During the 2004-2005 harvest, crossbow hunters accounted for 33,175 kills, vertical archers took 24,023 deer. In 2006-2007, hunters killed 237,316 deer: firearms 112,260, combined archery 67,912, bonus deer gun season 24,982, statewide muzzleloader 22,871, youth gun season 8,315, misc. 976. It's estimated that 30 percent of vertical archers also use crossbows. I won't comment on the above, since anyone who got this far can certainly read. I also won't comment on your rebuttal, which surely will be some drivel either written by or commissioned by a crossbow manufacturer. The lurkers get my point as assuredly as you won't Steve. No Steve, your point is you want more time to hunt with as many weapons as possible. We get that. There is nothing alleged about the increased success rates of x-gun shooters. As I said earlier, if you really had a problem with any current hunting practices, and you had any principles, you'd be fighting them - not fighting to further destroy the season. Your motivations are clear, in spite of the straw man arguments you present. Bowhunter or opportunist? I rest my case... a real bowhunter would never say something so utterly foolish. Hunt safe Steve, don't throw your back out loading that x-gun onto your quad.

I'm not sure I see your point Steve. I'm not taking exception to your assertion that ground blinds provide an unfair advantage (there's that "opinion" thing again) because it's not the issue. If you're correct, and ground blinds are having as detrimental an effect on the season as x-guns will, why on Earth would you champion to have yet another detriment in archery season? Surely you've heard the saying that two wrongs don't make a right? Why not expend all of this energy you're spending pushing the crossgun to have ground blinds outlawed? I'm not sure I see your logic... Nevertheless, your argument is a non-sequitur. As I've said previously, it's a waste of time to argue emotional and opinion-based points of view. I notice you haven't addressed my point of x-guns increasing "bowhunter" success rates to the point where the seasons are shortened...

Archer, I didn't mean to say that there weren't good reasons put forth to oppose the x-gun in archery season, what I meant to say was that many of the reasons cited are based on emotion or opinion, which leaves room for those who don't really care about the season as much as they do the big tent to attack you and your position. I personally don't object to attracting more people to the season, and I don't think you do either - what I object to is introducing a weapon that will INCREASE THE SUCCESS RATES OF THE SEASON to the point where wildlife managers will have no choice but to limit opportunity by shortening seasons. For the life of me I can't understand any real bowhunter who is willing to see that happen under the guise of goodwill or anything else they choose to call it. I don't think the proponents of x-guns are looking to hurt hunting, but I do believe they don't realize their stance is hurting a specific segment of the sport - bowhunting. There are those who wish to argue endlessly here, and parse the issue to death... treestands, groundblinds, etc. I don't have the time or the energy. As Doc so aptly pointed out, nobody's changing minds here. To them, I would submit that none of these METHODS have given hunters a decided advantage over our quarry. I've been busted by a sharp whitetail sitting 20 feet off the ground trying to draw more times than I can imagine. Are treestands an advantage? Definitely. Do they offer the same advantage NOT having to draw a bow in the presence of game does? IMO absolutely not. Apples and oranges... treestands are a method... x-guns are a weapon.

After wading through 30 pages of insults, hyperbole, opinions, and skewed logic, I thought long and hard about whether to bother adding my proverbial 2 cents to the argument. I decided to do so because of one reason - I've yet to hear anybody articulate the biggest threat that crossbows pose to archery season. First, a bit of background so you know where I'm coming from. I started bowhunting back in the early 80's, and quickly fell in love with the challenge, the peace and quiet, and everything about it - to the point that I quickly gave up guns. I hunt everything with a bow - deer, small game, fish, anything I can. I was born and raised just north of Pittsburgh Pa, where in some areas the deer are thick as rats and many of them are the size of dogs as a result. Living in an area like this, bag limits are liberal... I used to routinely take 12 or more antlerless deer every year (usually nothing with horns). Not that I haven't killed a couple of wallhangers, and not that I don't like seeing a nice buck in front of me, but for whatever twisted reason I just enjoy putting meat in the freezer more than antlers on the wall. I ended up here in Upstate New York about 3 years ago, and I have to admit it's been quite a shock. Lots of beautiful woodlots and fields - and even more "No Hunting" signs. But I digress... My OPINION is that crossbows don't belong in archery season for one main reason - they remove the single biggest challenge that most of us face: drawing on an approaching animal. I used to hunt with a "buck" hunter who scoffed at all the "stupid" does I tagged and used to say "I coulda shot 5 doe today", like simply laying eyes on a deer was the same as putting a tag in its ear. I challenged him to start drawing on these deer, and hunting them like that mythical buck he was holding out for. He took the challenge, and it took him awhile to admit it, but he was getting busted drawing on those "stupid" doe most every time. Point is that this movement is a critical part of the challenge of BOWHUNTING - and x-gunners don't have this problem, Sure, they have to swing that big contraption in the direction of the deer, point, and shoot, but I just don't think it's the same. Which leads me to the point that I don't think anyone's raised yet (and which I find amazing). SUCCESS RATES. My home state of Pennsylvania enjoys a 6-week archery season that extends through the rut for one reason only - low success rates (and minimal impact on the resources). The last time I checked, Pa archers enjoy a respectable 13% success rate - and they're absolutely terrified that the inclusion of the crossbow in this season will drive up the success rates to a point that the game commission will do the only natural thing - shorten the season. There's a reason rifle seasons aren't 6 weeks long guys - the resource couldn't handle it. The big fear is that introducing a weapon that LIKELY will have a higher success rate into our season will ultimately shorten it. Now multi-weapon hunters usually could care less about this, because after the new 5 day archery season closes they'll just grab the next weapon and hit the woods. But the guys like me who hunt only archery will be screwed. Just my 2 cents... happy hunting guys, and good luck this year.