TheHunter

Steve863, that's your opinion. AR's can and do benefit things other then hunters who wish to give the 1.5's an opportunity to mature. I am sure there are a few deer that are not 1.5's that are protected by AR, just as there are some 1.5's that are not protected by AR.

Animal husbandry is in fact a science, and there is no reason not to apply sound breeding practices to our free ranging herd of white-tailed deer in NY. In many areas hunters often observe fewer deer than meets their satisfaction and it’s easy to blame this on a number of things. We must not overlook the fact that every time a NY hunter pulls the trigger or releases an arrow, he or she is making a decision that will determine the herd’s characteristics for the next season. When a poor buck-to-doe ratio exists, we will experience a trickle rut. A breeding chronology that is extended as it appears to the case in some areas of NY is something that hunters can control. Only our stubborn adherence to outdated hunting traditions that results in annually clear-cutting the yearling buck population prevents us from refining deer breeding ecology. Yearling bucks are capable breeders, and DNA analysis has shown that in white-tailed deer populations with a well-balanced age structure, yearlings will breed about 1/3 of the does. However, in unbalanced herds such as NY and other northeastern states with a poor buck age structure, yearlings by default are forced to conduct the bulk of the breeding over an extended period of time. This immature age class of male animals with the smallest physical stature, the poorest stored fat reserves, and the most inept breeding behaviors are forced to be the primary breeders over a needlessly long breeding season. It defies the basic logic of animal husbandry practices, yet is a time-honored scenario that currently plays out every fall, to the chronic long term detriment of overall deer herd health in NY.

Animal husbandry is in fact a science, and there is no reason not to apply sound breeding practices to our free ranging herd of white-tailed deer in NY. In many areas hunters often observe fewer deer than meets their satisfaction and it’s easy to blame this on a number of things. We must not overlook the fact that every time a NY hunter pulls the trigger or releases an arrow, he or she is making a decision that will determine the herd’s characteristics for the next season. When a poor buck-to-doe ratio exists, we will experience a trickle rut. A breeding chronology that is extended as it appears to the case in some areas of NY is something that hunters can control. Only our stubborn adherence to outdated hunting traditions that results in annually clear-cutting the yearling buck population prevents us from refining deer breeding ecology. Yearling bucks are capable breeders, and DNA analysis has shown that in white-tailed deer populations with a well-balanced age structure, yearlings will breed about 1/3 of the does. However, in unbalanced herds such as NY and other northeastern states with a poor buck age structure, yearlings by default are forced to conduct the bulk of the breeding over an extended period of time. This immature age class of male animals with the smallest physical stature, the poorest stored fat reserves, and the most inept breeding behaviors are forced to be the primary breeders over a needlessly long breeding season. It defies the basic logic of animal husbandry practices, yet is a time-honored scenario that currently plays out every fall, to the chronic long term detriment of overall deer herd health in NY.

What I am saying is Majorty want AR to continue, and I am one of them that would like to see it continue because I see the results. No, however if it was the other way around, and I was not in a AR WMU and I thought that my WMU would benefit from AR then I would be voicing my opionion as well. I'm not imposing it on other WMU's because I can not speak for them. There are odviously WMU's that do not need the support of AR, where pressure is lower, where bucks are more mature and live to an older age. Why is allowing a 1.5 to survive such a horrible thing? It's like the end of the world for you guys. QDM / AR on a small scale on your own property does not work unless you have thousand acres at your disposal. Look at DMP's, they issue them based on the need for herd thinning. Its the same thing with AR, your trying allow the bucks in this case to mature and survive another year where they can get smarter, bigger, and help provide a better age structure to the herd. As far as dimishing hunter success rates, look at PA, they tracked hunter success rates over the last 3 decades, and it has shown little to zero change in the percentage of successful hunters. Today, PA hunters are as successful harvesting a buck under AR as their predecessors were 20 years ago....

Do you have proof that the majority in your WMU is in favor of AR or is this just your opininon? Unless a survey has been conducted in your WMU that includes every hunter in your WMU I think this is more opinion than fact. 77% of 3H-3K hunters believe AR should continue - DEC Survey.

I do not agree, and its not 100% correct. Majority in my AR WMU want AR to stay.

Incorrect, the response rates were 62% for WMUs 3C-3J and 42% for WMUs 3H-3K.

Thats a great comment. If thats your feeling then why in the world would you be against AR allowing the majority of 1.5's to survive if they are just "scrubs". Allowing a 1.5 to become a 2.5 results in a more mature deer, and some of those 2.5's will be 3.5's and so on.

Who said anyone is shooting one every season. Yes, a racked buck is nice, and having AR gives you a better chance at one down the road as the bucks mature. You assumed correct, this was over 15 years ago, well before AR. There older deer, I never said there was zero older deer. Right, the same goes for you guys that feel the need voice your opinion with zero hunting experiance in a WMU with AR. As well as those who bash people that want AR. Its a two way street. There are plenty of biological advantages to AR. http://www.hvqdma.com/biological-needs-for-antler-restriction/ http://www.education.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=space&name=Dir&id=cached&psname=Dir&psid=1&in_hi_userid=2&cached=true&control=DirRepost&rangeFrom=54&rangeTo=73&subfolderID=107594&DirMode=1# Prior to APRs about 80 percent of bucks (a majority of which were yearlings) were harvested by hunters each year. This led to buck survival rates of less than 20 percent. Protecting most yearling bucks would increase buck survival thereby increasing adult bucks in the population, the goal of APRs. Based on survival rates of hundreds of radio-collared bucks, yearling buck survival increased from less than 20 percent to 64 percent after APRs. Adult buck survival increased as well to 36 percent. WMUs 3C and 3J: 60% of respondents said the program should continue, 29% said it should not continue, 11% had no opinion. WMUs 3H and 3K: 77% of respondents said the program should continue, 14% said it should not continue, 9% had no opinion. Majority

Yes, there are plenty of people that feel the same way as I do. Majority actually, especially in our WMU's with AR. What does PETA have to do with this? I won't even comment on that. Why is everyone so worried about a first time hunter getting a buck? Since when is going out hunting guarantee you a buck? I went 3+ years before harvesting my first buck, I had to hunt, put in the time, and I bagged a nice older 7 pointer. I and others want to have a more mature herd, bigger bucks, and a opportunity to harvest larger racked deer. And AR is giving us the opportunity to do that. QDM / AR on a small scale on your own property does not work, unless you have 1500 acres. This form of AR in place now might not be perfect, however it works. There are more bucks now running around with AR that are legal to take then before AR in my area. So those who hunt, first timers or not, have a better opportunity. There are clear biological reasons for AR despite what the DEC states, and the major goal of AR was to protect a majority of the 1.5's which it does. In PA, 1/4 of the bucks that reach 2.5 are now surviving to older ages. Why? Older, smarter, more mature.

Nah, I won't relax. There are far to many people that are trying to speak for WMU's they are hours from with zero hunting experiance in. You are right, AR is not going away, majority supports it and it works.

Try the real numbers. If you use the report to claim success, use all the report and do not accept some numbers, but dismiss others. Overall buck kill is down aprox 300 total 1.5 is down just under 400. Means 2.5 and 3.5 kill is only 100 more. Where did the other 300 1.5 Bucks go? ??? ??? ? They were probably shot up by brown its down people like you. Ever think the 1.5's turned into 2.5's and became smarter more mature deer? More aware of their surroundings, hunters, and other things. No matter what you say, what you spin, those who hunt in AR zones know the results. They see and shoot bigger more mature deer. They see more younger deer, they see more deer period. Keep shooting those spikes!

Cliff it won't work, Anti AR people want to shoot everything, they have no regard for QDM, aging, and maturing deer. It's a shame... OMG a 17 year old wont havest a deer! The horror!!! Took me 3 years to get my first buck, and I'm still hunting 20 years later.

It's looking good from your trail cam pics - AR seems to be kicking in nice there.

Larry, this part? Within WMU 3H hunter support is 77% for continuing the antler restriction program. Hunter support for antler restrictions has increased more than 22% since the start of the program. After three years, opposition to continuation of the program has decreased from 26% to 14%. Maybe it was this part that Antler Restrictions are accomplishing the objective-Yearling buck harvest is down 70%. If not that then maybe it was 59% of all NY deer hunters support a program that would protect yearling bucks, while only 18% were strongly opposed. If not that then maybe it was this Among hunters from the proposed 2009 AR program expansion areas, there was a level of support of 67%. Here is something to be proud of - New York has the highest yearling buck harvest rate of all the states in the country. Currently 63% of the total statewide buck harvest is comprised of 1.5-year-old bucks. In many areas yearling buck harvest is much higher, such as Delaware County where 75% of the bucks are killed as yearlings. Woot! Lets go get them young ones.

They can't, thats the thing. Its all negative from those that are anti AR, like the sky is falling since they can not shoot those fawns and 1.5's.

Yeah, me too, thats what I figured. Its nice seeing more bucks running around because of AR. Its funny, not only are there more bucks of all ages running around, there are bigger ones too.. Go figure. Good thing there are a few spreading the facts, and talking based on first hand experience rather then from assumptions, misconceptions, and the classic brown its down mentality.

Fairgame, JC, and others in AR ZONE ONLY - are there bigger more mature bucks now then there were 3 or 4 years ago in your area? There are in my area. I just want to get some facts on this thread, seems so convoluted with negativity.

Wow... Doc, Trophyism? Its called management, QDM. Quality Deer Management, better the herd, age the herd. This way that 22 year old, that 17 year old that 75 year old doesnt JUST see spikes. Its called hunting for a reason, if that 22 or 17 or 75 year old can't put the time in, then that is NOT my problem. All you old timers need to get away from the its brown its down mentality. Remember the 3 inch antler rule has been in effect for ever, go bitch about that so you can shoot those too. What a joke.

In my area where AR is in effect a 16 and 14 year old hunter is exempt from AR. And since I am the one paying my hunting fee's as well as my families, 15 and 16, I have every right to push for AR. Expecially since it works. Regardless, majority support and want AR's in the AR zones.

Nah its OK, as long as AR stays in the WMU I'm in... Which it will because of overwheling success and approval. Its OK, he can practice BiD (Brown its Down) targeting all those yearling bucks and fawns while we try to mature the herd with better management and have a better hunting experiance for us and our future hunters. I do think it should expand into other WMU's however, thats not up to me, thats up to those in the WMU's. Its a shame with majority support the DEC didn't approve it there.

MOST 1.5's are protected due to the AR... None the less I won't disturb abruno's thread any more by responding to your ignorance. ???

Maybe he should change his name from Steve863 to Steve_ItsBrownItsDown

And this is why 7 out of 10 male deer killed in NYS were either fawns or yearlings. Funny how steve has to attack everyone in every thread who likes to practice QDM / AR or who are in favor of an AR.

Dick Henry, the guy who wrote the artice, is a recently retired big game biologist from the DEC. He knows his stuff.