vlywaterman

There is a pretty good article on non-lead ammo in the new Conservationist. Some of the pictures didn't have captions and I wasn't sure what they were, but overall it was pretty informative. Another good source for looking up the ammo you need if using non-lead is : https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Hunting/Nonlead-Ammunition/Certified the nice thing about this site is that if you know your gun likes Hornady or Remington bullets you can look at each manufacturers website to see if they make your particular ammo. Then ask you dealer to get some in,,, (thank you Mr. Cuomo). this site has some good info on non-lead; http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/bullets_centerfire.html

ok, thanks for the clarification, it would be nice to see comparisons though if you ever get a chance to do this again. Maybe that is typical for your shooting,,,,,,,you really didn't say how well you do with lead ammunition.

Rattler, I believe you were the one looking for the 7mm-08, the box I just bought at Dave's is Nosler E-Tip,140gr with a polymer tip. Box claims 2662fps at 100 yds, 2202ft-lbs energy. They were $29.95.

Al, I just reread your post,, the CCI green you mentioned that you tested and the CCI copper are not the same,,,, if you would be so kind as the check those boxes I would appreciate it. The CCI green are the ones that everyone says are junk. The CCI copper 22 are really brand new. thanks

That is a great analogy, thank you. I hope to find some sometime to try,,, but your stats with those rounds,,,,,,I do as well or pretty close off hand with my pistol(with lead).

Al, what part seemed like I was giving you BS? I said I never shot them,, and this is what a friend of mine told me. Looks like you know how to shoot,,, you didn't say exactly what rounds you were shooting though, and I didn't see anyone comparing different rounds,,,, is that all you shot, just from the 1000 rounds someone came up with? are you bullshitting me? Did your friend get those rounds locally? I still can't seem to find them and Dave in Margaretville (well Jack anyway), says he can't get them. Whoever was looking for the 7mm-08, I did ask Dave to get some in, and I got a box today, about $30,,,, would be happy to shoot them with whoever said they wanted to try them. Or drop them off.

I have never used the copper 22, and past reviews of nonlead 22's have been bad to say the least. I can't get any of them locally yet. I asked a friend of mine that has tested these and this is what he sent me: The original CCI 22 Short Range Green 22 Rimfire and the Winchester Tin .22 rimfire that we have tested did not produce acceptable results. Both had poor accuracy and did not function in semi-auto rifles.The brand new CCI COPPER 22 is very accurate and functioned well in our rifles. I have been recommending the CCI COPPER 22 to people looking for non-lead rimfire.***If you do recommend any non-lead .22 rimfire please make sure that you ONLY recommend the CCI COPPER 22. If they buy the other ammunition they will have a poor experience and your creditably will be hurt. Hope this helps, I would also like to add that in CA,,, the ban is only for hunting purposes,,, you can still buy and shoot lead ammo. And, I came across this,,,, thought it might be of some interest, these are all hunters. http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/136664-hunters-federation-takes-aim-at-lead-ammunition_

Airedale, just rereading your post, if I look at what you posted, the numbers of hunters have been steadily dropping,,, so how does that relate to the lead ban, which will be for all hunting in 2019 and didn't start until basically July 2015. And someone was looking for a consensus of research papers. How about this: We carried out a literature search in the database Web of Science for scientific papers dealing with environmental and health consequences of the use of lead in ammunition. We used 11 different query combinations of the key words ‘‘lead, lead-free, non-lead, non-toxic, ammunition, hunting, poisoning, shot, meat, game, raptor, waterfowl, and upland game.’’ After removing non-relevant papers, we manually added approximately 100 references found by searching in other databases (PubMed, Google Scholar) or in reference lists of published literature. Finally, we were left with 570 peer-reviewed papers published from 1975 through August 2016.We found that more than 99% of them raised concerns over use of lead-based ammunition. A recent international symposium (Delahay and Spray2015 ) highlighted the health and environmental risks from lead in spent ammunition. from: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10393-016-1177-x

Airedale, why would you think CA sport hunting has been trashed? cost? performance? And Rob, buck shot would be better for you and your kids in terms of lead getting into your venison(though of course it is illegal). Did you read any of the science? It's the bullets velocity that is causing the fragmentation into tiny pieces,,, the size of pepper flakes, hundreds of them,,, they are tiny, and you would not spit them out because you wouldn't notice them. And if you did swallow a piece of bird shot, unless it got stuck on your appendix, it would be out in a day or so. The surface area of those tiny pieces is much greater than that one piece of birdshot(or buckshot). That greater surface area makes it break down easier by your acidic digestive juices, and when small enough it can be absorbed into the blood stream. That is why, if you do use lead, don't use wine or vinegar when cooking as it starts breaking down the stuff even sooner. Did you look at x-rays of deer shot with lead? Now, someone might mention ducks or other birds actually eating the shot and it causing problems,,,, the reason is that they have gizzards,,, the shot stays in there just like those pebbles you've seen to help break down their food. If you have ever shot a turkey or grouse or any other bird,,, you must have seen this. Doves in particular are prone to this as bird shot on the ground is the perfect size grit for them.

Rattler, You are exactly right on your last post,,,, I grew up as a dairy farmer, in the Catskills. But, I do understand. The time my son and son-in-law, put into hunting all year round just amazes me, cameras, hiking, equipment, shooting,,,and that is what they talk about, all year round. But that is not me. About your 06, I have a few boxes on hand, as that is what I use, I think the last ones were in the mid $30s/ box. I'd be happy to give you a box to try. And I can see if Dave in Margaretville can get your other rounds in if you'd like me to. You can email me directly if you would prefer,, [email protected] The Winchester Supreme xp3 are a great round, that is what my son was using, and it sheds much less lead than corelokts, and of course shoot much better. He did switch though, and actually the copper, I think (Hornady), was less by about $10, than he paid for the Supremes. He is very happy with how they shoot, he knows it made me happy, and he doesn't worry about guts or being as careful about butchering.

I don't believe banning is the best either, I think that convincing hunters on copper's merits is the best approach and I think we see that happening in AZ. There are a lot of unhappy people in CA, and I just don't see how it can be enforced anyway. As I am not a duck hunter, do most people comply with not using lead?, and if so, is it because they believe lead is a problem, or they fear getting caught. I think there were lots of hunters pretty unhappy when that ban happened, and there were lawsuits as well. Rattler, what do you hunt with and what are the ballistic disadvantages of copper that you have seen. Are you having trouble finding rounds for your caliber? Where are you located?

one of the symptoms of lead exposure is aggressiveness. And where is that exhaustive UK study? I think you got that wrong,,,, the five year study wanted to phase out lead,,, it was one person(who was not involved in it) who said not so fast,,,, not because of the study, but in spite of it. Read the results of the study. I will repeat myself, name one scientific study that says all these others studies are false. I've posted dozens, a google search for lead in game meat will turn up hundreds.

thanks for the info, I don't live to hunt, my son and son-in-law do, and my daughter was telling me for a few years about lead in venison,,,, I poo-pooed it, saying there is no way the blood can carry that lead around, and most of the bullet is removed or goes through, but , after loosing an eagle to lead poisoning,,,, and doing some homework, I was shocked. And I felt guilty for feeding so much lead tainted venison to my kids,,,, hunting along with road kill was all our meat. I'm not an expert on hunting or shooting,,,, but I want to do my part, there are other hunters like me who hunted for food and don't get involved in all the political crap. I wish someone had shown me this info earlier, but then again,maybe I would have thought it was just political crap. It's easy to see the results, just shoot both yourself,,, and if you want I'm willing to come and help, and bring some copper rounds.

where do you find non-lead 22s?, I can't even get anyone around here or Gander Mtn, Dick's to order them. I think winchester and CCI are making them,,, are they tin?

looks like more than a Rolls,,,, well over a $1.50/ round at cabela's,,, again, that is not my thing, and I don't hunt waterfowl. Someone brought it up, and I passed it on to others who do that.

I have not shot any of those rounds, any thoughts on them? someone said they are actually less expensive than lead,,,, is that true?

no, not a hypocrite, just honest, I wasn't as concerned with lead shot, and the amount of grouse hunting I do these days is pretty slim,,, it is not the same as the hundreds of fragments one sees in rifle bullets, even if you hunt with lead slugs, it is not nearly as bad as high velocity rounds. I'm not leaving toxic gut piles in the field either. As for the post fading away, some new information has come out, a lot of good discussion has happened. And back a few posts, someone was touting the virtues of the butchering a good hunter is capable of, which does lower the risks. And if one is ok with an 8% risk of feeding lead to you family,,, I can't argue with that, it is a pretty low risk. But I personally wouldn't do it.

Thanks for putting me on the spot,,,, no, I haven't been, but I will now. I can list a bunch of excuses, but that is all they are. I had asked Carroll Henderson from MN DNR about a video I had seen where this guy was talking about the ineffectiveness of non-lead shot, and this is his response. Mr. Henderson is at least partially responsible for us having eagles in NYS. In the early 70's if you recall we had only one nesting pair of bald eagles(that couldn't hatch any eggs), now we have at least 200 pairs. Mr. Henderson sent a number of birds and eggs back with Pete Nye and some other DEC officials. Actually the oldest eagle we know of, was killed by a car in Western NY(last year?), was one that he had caught and sent back for us some 38 years ago. Mr. Bacon is woefully misinformed and seems to be parroting the misinformation of the National Shooting Sports Foundation. When hunters first needed to comply with the need to use nontoxic shot for waterfowl hunting, the rule of thumb for the transition was to go to one size larger shot to get comparable performance. If a hunter were accustomed to use # 6 lead shot for pheasant hunting, a switch to # 6 nontoxic shot would result in a lighter impact and effect which it seems to be what is implied in the video. However, by switching to # 4 nontoxic shot, results should be comparable to # 4 lead. I have used nontoxic shot for pheasant hunting on our farm in Iowa for over 20 years with no apparent change in effectiveness. There is now a new firm called Rio in Marshall, Texas that produces nontoxic bismuth shot on a large scale. Also, outdoor writer Ron Spomer just published a really nice article in Outdoor News about the effectiveness of nontoxic shot for all shotgun hunting. I have an extra copy of the newspaper that I can send you--send me your address.

my bad, I was referring to what a previous hunter had thought, that he might have been using varmint rounds "I suspect this was a frangible varmint bullet, since it did not show any bullet body remaining in the animal at all when x-rayed. Varmint rounds are designed to explode when they strike an animal. The varmints they are used on are not meant to be eaten. I would say he wasn't using the right bullet for the animal taken, especially if he intended to eat it." But he wasn't, he was using a typical lead jacketed round. no, you are not imagining that. I think in most of my shooting I loose 25-35% of the round just fired into water,,, .223 was the worst(talking the copper jacketed of course).

here is a video that is already done, but I really suggest you do it yourself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZJXderphCM

He said he used a 6mm Federal Premium, Nosler Partition, he was pretty sure it was 100gr. I'd want to look at the video again, but he thought he had a pretty good broadside of the animal. If you don't think those bullets fragment shoot them into five 1 gallon water jugs at 100yds and weigh what is left,,, actually you can look at what is left, particularly if you shoot both copper and lead. Instead of just talking, and imagining this stuff, just do it, then lets talk.

Match your ammo, butcher carefully,,,,, you're great up to there, One hundred fourteen (114) additional samples of ground and whole cut venison were solicited from WDNR employees in order to more directly sample the hunter population (“hunter samples”). These were screened and analyzed as above. Sixteen of the 114 hunter samples were identified by the submitter as “commercially processed.” Therefore, for the purpose of calculating averages, these sixteen were grouped with the pantry samples, for an adjusted total of 199 pantry (or commercially processed) samples and 98 self-processed samples (from hunters). Results. Lead was ultimately detected in 30 of 199 commercially processed samples, a prevalence of 15% (Table 1). The mean lead concentration found among those pantry samples positive for lead was 15.9 mg/kg ± 32.5 std. dev. The mean lead concentration found among all pantry samples was 2.4 mg/kg ± 13.8 std. dev. Lead was detected in 8 of 98 hunter samples, a prevalence of 8%. Seven of the eight positives were from ground meat; one was from a whole cut. The mean lead concentration found among those hunter samples positive for lead was 21.8 mg/kg ± 67.1 std. dev. The mean lead concentration found among all hunter samples was 1.8 mg/kg ± 19.8 std. dev. even with hunter butchered samples, 92% were lead free, great for a lottery ticket, but I wouldn't take that gamble with my family. And in the UK with over five years of work, the results they published were that lead is harmful and that there should be a ban,,, but the secretary of state's letter put a stop to all that and she wanted to dissolve the whole group. Something that as of now they have chosen not to do. So, I don't think the "rest of the story" is out on that yet.

I didn't think he might be using frangible bullets, I don't really think they would be very effective for hunting those animals. I will try to find the answer to that, I sent a message to the nonlead contact to see if we can contact Anthony Prieto, the hunter in the video.

just came across this video, if one thinks they can be careful and trim the lead away look at the x-ray of the pig shot in the neck,,,, the lead is all the way down into it's shoulder. http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/videos2015.html

From the Lead Ammunition Group's last meeting: The Chair reported as follows: 3.1 The LAG report had been submitted for Defra consideration in June 2015. On the 13th July 2016 Defra had informed the Chair and published on their website a letter from the extant (at the time) Secretary of State Elizabeth Truss indicating that Defra did not intend to take further actions to reduce risks from lead ammunition. The timing of the announcement (i.e. coinciding with the LAG meeting minutes: 19 ‐ 15 August 2016 Page 2 of 6 departure of David Cameron and inauguration of Theresa May), coincident with Ms. Truss’ imminent change of job, was noted to be unconvincing. The Secretary of State’s lack of action appeared to be based upon two key points: She justified her decision on “lack of evidence of causation linking possible impacts of lead ammunition with population sizes of birds in England”. It was noted by the meeting that Defra had been informed at the April LAG meeting of the recent Ibis paper (see above) on population level effects and had received a pre-publication copy immediately thereafter. There was discomfort with the sense that any scale of (what was felt to be avoidable) mortality and welfare harm is acceptable as long as it is unproven that there is a causal link to population sizes. She maintained that the current FSA advice “to minimize the risk of lead intake, people who frequently eat lead-shot game, particularly small game, should cut down their consumption. This advice is especially important for vulnerable groups such as toddlers and children, pregnant women and women trying for a baby” – was felt to remain unaffected by the report’s findings. The meeting noted that the narrative in the shooting media (in particular of ‘more lead in beer’ etc.) probably prejudiced the value and efficacy of the FSA advice. She acknowledged the issue of poor compliance with existing Regulations and confirmed that they would look at how existing Regulations on wildfowling can be better implemented. They also understood that FSA would be considering if action was required to raise awareness of their advice amongst the at-risk population. 3.2 On receipt of the Secretary of State’s (Defra) response, the LAG Report with its Risk Assessment and Risk Mitigation Register had been published on the LAG website. http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/LAG-Report-June-2015- without-Appendices.pdf http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/LAG-Report-June-2015- Appendices-without-Appendix-6.pdf http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/LAG-Report-June-2015-RISK- MITIGATION-REGISTER-Appendix-6.pdf I want to wait and see what there response to her letter is.