vlywaterman

Just recently I was sharing information on non-lead ammunition at a gun show in Saugerties. A gentleman mentioned that lead is “naturally occurring”, as though this made it ok. The idea that if something is natural, it must be ok, I don’t believe is always true. I love wild mushrooms, and I can assure folks that not all that is natural is consumable. What about mercury and asbestos? If one does not believe that lead is a toxic substance, then concern about lead in ammunition is a mute point. But, if we believe it is toxic why would we put it in our food? I read this article on the site Huntfortruth.org: http://www.huntfortruth.org/research-indicates-no-lead-threat-in-hunted-game/. Hunters should read the suggested papers, and judge for themselves. Here is a link for their most important paper that claims there is no evidence that lead in game meat is harmful: http://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=542020096000011100124085070065064102026044031032057003066126100028004097107027125066031056003008104040034097127076110017002089027091046046045108064100107099094018004077083060021093019070121118081074026006122031121090012075093119079094007084029069005102&EXT=pdf There is one part in there that states, “Many of the studies are based on randomly selected packs of mincemeat. It should be noted that at least two factors may have increased the likelihood of encountering lead in these packs. First, the minced meat may have been processed from poor cuts, trims and possibly the tissue dam- aged by bullets. Secondly, in one of the studies the packs analyzed were donated to the Community Action Food Centre. One cannot help but ponder whether those households donating gave away their best game meat? “ This scientist is suggesting that hunters donating game are getting rid of the poor quality game meat, or that the processors are not trimming enough around the wound channel? And, the study was done in test tubes, not in a real digestive system. If you want to read a paper that talks about actual real digestion and absorption of lead in game meat, read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669501/ Here is a great short video that was filmed in Delaware County. I would like to note that the eagle in the film was rehabilitated, and released, but died a week later. It was originally found in the vicinity of another dead bald eagle near Stamford. Probably neither of these eagles would have been found if one didn't have a transmitter on. http://doas.us/lead-ammunition-a-needless-danger-to-eagles-and-ourselves-video/

By the way, I just bought 12 gauge Remington Copper Solids at Del Sports in Margaretville, where I have been buying all my copper. They were $14/box, about half of what they were in Dicks

Just a bit of information for those that may be looking for some ammo from Pierce. http://batchgeo.com/map/?i=4fb4720b6c54b37cebd0e80b0c81ad41&q=14424 And a hunter that just came back from hog hunting in SC, sent me this link: http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/bullet-talk/faq/#tsx_faq He told me the guide was glad that he was using copper(called "hog hammers") as he hated chasing down wounded animals.

http://www.gunbot.ne...o/rimfire/22lr/ this site has quite a few at .10, but I don't know what shipping might be. And the Pierce at .13/round was for copper, I think. My thoughts on the ban, (in CA)is that it has not made it impossible for us to get ammo or to get copper, and the study by the NSSF seemed a bit alarmist. And 22LR has been a bit of a problem for a few years now. I have never purchased from Pierce, I only found them online a month or so ago, and have only spoken with Amanda once and had some email correspondence. I had asked her if I put together a large order, if I could come out and pick it up for some friends down here. And I asked about the "seconds". She asked me to give her a few days advance to put the order together, and that the seconds only had blemishes but were fine otherwise. It would be great if someone was near there or could make a trip there and let us know about the place. How much were the last 22s you purchased, and how long ago was that? I haven't purchased any in years.

Culver, why wouldn't you look at Pierce's website,,, it is US and NY made(not sure if 22 is made in NY). Then you can contact them, and let us know how you made out.

From Pierce http://www.pierceoutfitters.com/poShop/index.php/cPath/63 there is some at http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ProductListing.aspx?catid=490 not many non lead right now though. Look at this site as well, which is very easy, quite a few non lead, just a pain to have it shipped in. http://www.gunbot.net/ammo/rimfire/22lr/ lots of 22 in stock. shows real time, well,, as of hours ago, what is in stock.

Mr. VJP I believe we have more public lands open now to hunting than we ever had. According to the NYCDEP, as of Jan.2013 they had opened 52,000 acres for hunting access... DEC has 4,000,000 acres, plus there are some military bases, and of course private lands. I think the ultimate reason for the decline in hunting is that attitudes have changed for a lot of kids,i.e. tv, games, not many kids get outdoors these days. I also asked our NYS ammo producer if they were anticipating a shortage after I had read the new NSSF report on the anticipated ammo shortage, and the problem it will cause. this was the reply: From: Amanda Kenefick <[email protected]> Subject: RE: Traditional Ammunition Ban to Cause Shortages, Price Spikes Date: September 22, 2014 12:53:57 PM EDT To: Michael DiBenedetto <[email protected]> Hi, We are currently on lay off until we move some of our existing stock, so I have not tried to purchase projos since July, however I had no problem or no indication of upcoming problems at that time. Thank you, Amanda From: [email protected] Subject: Fwd: Traditional Ammunition Ban to Cause Shortages, Price Spikes Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 14:16:57 -0400 To: [email protected] Hello Amanda, Do you believe this is a big concern for us in NYS? Are you folks having a problem filling orders? thanks, michael

quite an intelligent conversation going on, I don't know if I can join with just my own thoughts here. Birds may be affected more by lead than small mammals due to the different digestive system, with a crop and gizzard. Also(just my opinion again), a raccoon or skunk might still get a long ok functioning poorly, finds some food, and can allow the lead poisoning effects to pass. You don't want to be impaired if you have to fly around and get food. And if you can't fly well, you don't eat. That is why so many birds are found starving. And of course, for adults, lead will have less of an affect than on young as the lead which mimics calcium will actually be deposited in bones. Calcium in the blood is used in all our muscles and nervous system as well. If one wants to read a really long paper, but quite well documented concerning the National Park Service and it's switch to non lead in some areas, check this out. It also goes into the psychology of why regulation is not the best avenue to choose. It has fishing as well as hunting information. http://www.georgewright.org/281ross-winslow.pdf

Mr. VJP I couldn't agree with you more about the seat belts,,, but should the gov have stepped in to require us to strap in our kids? and I too believe that a rider shouldn't have to wear a helmet if he chooses not to. And yes, so many times regulations are put in, "just in case" no one complains because they are not enforced much ,,,yet. But I ask think so many regulations are put in place because we as a people have lost our common sense, regard for our neighbors, and pretty much most things except ourselves. for example, if you live in a village and have an outdoor furnace,,,, why would you burn your garbage in it? so we have to have a regulation.

"In NY state and most of the country carrion eaters are primarily crows, raccoons, opossums, coyotes and raptors (hawks making up the large majority) and all of these are on the increase or at historical highs as far as there population is concerned." ​I am not sure where your assumption came from about historical highs, some are on the increase, some populations have stabilized and some have decreased, at least that is what I gathered reading your second link,,, the first I could not open. ​And who are the "idiot hunters"? the ones who use copper to reduce the chance of lead exposure in their families? Maybe the ones using copper because it performs better?, maybe the ones that believe the science that some scavengers are suffering and dying because of the gut piles we leave behind? Should we still be using asbestos for insulation in our schools? That stuff is pretty natural, it was used for thousands of years and only a hundred or so years ago did someone first document a death associated with it. Maybe that is not a good analogy, as it was not government infringing on our rights, not then anyway, but it was banned eventually. What about seat belts? should we be required to have our kids buckled up in our own cars? That is really government interference. Where do we draw a line here? Would or should we have not buckled up our kids just to make a statement?

my bad, it pasted wrong, maybe this paste will work: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-cant-stop-watching-amazing-ny-debate-over-yogurt/

yes coonhunter, of course we have lots to be concerned with, not just this state or country, but the world seems to be spinning out of control. And, for me, often the outdoors is the place to get away from all the nonsense. But this lead stuff is something we can affect, to make sure our food is safer, and that there is less collateral damage. Yes, that is true, I have a friend who has a friend at Dick's, calls him when the orders are coming in, but I can't do anything about that. For a bit of humor on our Government in action, watch this video of our NYS Senate: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-cant-stop-watching-amazing-ny-debate-over-yogurt/

Mr. VJP, I do understand your concerns with the divide and conquer idea, that as more people volunteer to switch to lead there will be less people to stand up for fighting a ban. But, I think this idea is also one that is killing any kind of honest debate or any progress in our government. At what point do we as individuals do what is right even though we may fear the "slippery slope"? Some people on this post have mentioned that their stockpiles of ammo will be illegal. I asked a friend of mine in CA who is a hunter, about the CA ban. He is also the person who told me that the state would have done better and had more compliance with switching to non-lead ammo if they had not implemented the ban. He did his homework and here is Ben's reply to my question: The lead ban is hunting only, based entirely on the bioavailability of lead in carrion. Lead at gun ranges gets "mined" (a pretty neat process where the soil is stripped and washed and returned. worth a google search) and there is little evidence of lead at gun ranges causing any major damage to anything other than the occasional quail. There is also no restriction on private property. The "slippery slope" in California for some was loosing lead for hunting. I really dont see it going any further legislatively any time soon. There are already many ranges that prohibit lead because range operators get lead poisoning frequently. These are mostly indoor ranges and shotgun ranges though. Shotgun ranges have the added benefit that they can reclaim steel shot without complicated machinery (think golf cart with a big magnet). Because of this, some ranges wont let you bring your own ammo, you have to buy it there. The JROTC has chapters that have stopped using lead for pellet-gun competition due to concerns of giving lead to kids. The military is phasing out lead in rifle ammo (non-lead has been on the battle field since 2010). Many police departments train and use non-lead(one non-lead bullet has killed EVERY bad-guy shot with it and is extremely popular due to it's current 100% claim). Lead is becoming obsolete, and there are guys who are scared that the world they are comfortable with is changing. I'm not saying it's a landslide of places banning lead from the premises, but people are changing on their own and not looking back. That is your "slippery slope". http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2010/07/lead-free-target-pellets-part-1/ http://patch.com/new-york/newcity/lead-contamination-forces-closing-of-clarkstown-polic63662f5c05 http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/ranges/ http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-water-utilities-trust-bans-lead-shot-from-shooting-range/article/3786927 http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98594 This bullet is a popular police bullet, but this isn't the 100% ammo I mentioned earlier (same bullet though) http://www.policeproducts.com/winchester-55-gr-sinterfire-frangible-p-672.html?manufacturers_id=3

About the CDC lead levels, I meant to say the threshold for intervention was halved, from 10 to five, they are not saying 5 is ok, just not a need for intervention,,, the person should not get sick. Look at Pierce Ammunition, made right here in NY, they carry quite a bit of non lead ammo. off camping with the grandkids for a few days, may not get back on here till Sunday.

just finished reading these posts, one thing I like very much about this is that it is a discussion, topics are being discussed,,, and my belief is that if I can't sell someone on the value of using alternatives to lead, I'm not doing a good enough job or maybe that person is not ready yet, but at least the information is out there. About that CDC study that seems to come up quite often, actually it was one of the first to be done. everything adkbuck said was true, however I would like to add that the lead levels in the folks who ate game meat were higher than those that did not, none of the folks eating the donated meat to the food pantries were tested, and lastly, the levels the CDC had at the time has been halved, from 10 to 5micrograms/deciliter of blood(I think that is the right unit). The average in the study was still below the threshold for intervention, but the point is, is that there is no safe level of lead in the blood. I'm not sure why many of the people posting don't believe there is lead in the meat, you can see it in the X-rays of the deer or pigs or sheep, if you don't believe these then maybe try to watch a video called "The NonLead Hunter" with Anthony Prieto, he actually shoots these pigs with both lead and copper ammo, and has a vet come in and do and X-ray of the animal in the field, that has just been shot, this isn't in a lab. I'd be happy to loan my copy to anyone that would like to watch it, it's only 24 minutes long, you can watch it at And about the eagles, here is a paper one can read, with lots of footnotes. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0051978 As we have become the top predator, many raptors and carrion eaters have become dependent or at least utilize us as a source of food. The paper cited above mentions how the eagles migrate in to coincide with hunting season. We can see eagles dying from lead poisoning, where else could it come from?

so, I am the"nice fellow there with a display" that was at Saturday's gun show. I'm very glad that this conversation got started, thank you. I was shocked when I started doing some research on lead in ammo, and I don't believe there needs to be a ban, I think most people will see for themselves that it really is a better choice. As far as the eagles, it could be coincidence that a few weeks after hunting season starts the rehab centers start getting the eagles in with very high lead levels, it would be difficult to prove that the source of the lead is from ammo. If we don't want to believe that, lets look at the meat. Look at the x-rays of sheep, deer, pigs, that have been shot with lead. The lead is not just in the wound channel. Its a foot or more away, in a whitetail, that is not something we would throw away. Look at the X-rays of donated venison packages they got from the food banks, not a lot of lead but it is there. There is no doubt that lead is toxic, it mimics calcium, so for kids, babies, calcium/lead is a very big deal, why would someone take that risk? The last thing about why I was promoting non lead was that it works better, according to a post in the "Army Times" http://www.army.mil/article/56157/ the green bullet is getting some pretty good reviews on how it shoots, and the damage it does. After reading about the lead, I bought some copper, about the same as premium lead, right in my local gun shop-DelSports- I paid $46 for 30-06, $33 for 270, and $48 for 300 WSM(all Federal Premium). So, I use my cheap lead for fooling around, and really how many bullets do I need for hunting? Even if it was twice as much/box I wouldn't feed my family lead anymore. I've been shooting these copper bullets with some friends, comparing the lead and non lead, try shooting them into 5- 1 gallon containers filled with water(it stopped the 30-06 at 100 yds), and then measure the mass of the bullet you have left. It's pretty amazing. sorry for the long wind, I do get excited about this. oh, one last note, one post talked about our forefathers,,, it's the high velocities that are causing the lead to fragment, I don't believe they were shooting bullets at 3000ft/s a few hundred years ago.