Doc

So what do you think these people's attitudes are toward hunting? ... lol

But as long as they are using the walk trails, they are very easy to pattern. It does get a bit more challenging when they are jogging or running on the "walk" trails.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/pELwCqz2JfE?rel=0&autoplay=true Ok, I had this mailed to me and while I cannot verify the facts and figures spouted in this video, I would like to know where some of you might think this guys statistics and logic and conclusions may be going astray. It all sounds like he has come up with a unique way of looking at all of the anti-gun figures that we have been bombarded with over the past several decades. I'm just curious as to what comments and thoughts you all may have floating around in your heads as you view this video.

I will grant permission to enter my land for retrieval purposes, but I do want to see the actual blood evidence for myself, so I generally will join in on the search. It is not completely unheard of that some guys will claim to be on the trail of wounded deer just to gain access into the property.

Well, what are you going to do? the woods are getting filled with all kinds of activity these day, and all these people have a perfectly legal right to be there. There definitely are days when the only thing that makes sense is to just write off the day and go home. Wait until a group 20 or 30 hikers walk through laughing and shouting back an forth. Or an equally huge gang of mountain bikers go by making as much noise as humanly possible. And then you may get to pat somebody's turkey dog on the head when he runs up to you .... lol. And then there are the squirrel hunters that decide to plop down at the base of a tree 50 yards from your stand and blast off a shot or two every 15 minutes. Yup, these people love their thing as much as we bowhunters love ours, and have a perfect right to enjoy their activities. What are you going to do. I can only satisfy myself knowing that most of my hunting life was spent in a time of less crowded land. Things certainly have changed. And those of us who count on a relatively undisturbed deer herd going through their daily patterns, are very frequently screwed up by all the other users of the land. That's just the way things are today. You can adapt or get out. That's the only two options.

Well, we all cheered when the government used the tax levying as a weapon against smokers and the legal tobacco industry. Why are we now surprised that the same tactics would be used to attack another industry that the government has decided was evil. See, the ends justifies the means as long as it's not our ox that is getting gored. The government can indeed direct public behavior control through taxation. And now that it has been proven, don't expect it to stop with just cigarettes. Oh, and I wouldn't expect the taxation to stop at guns. They have ammo and components to work on too. It will all be justified under the code words, "Sin Tax". And the beauty is that it technically is not contrary to the 2nd Amendment. All these things will still be able to be bought .... if you have enough money.

I have had it happen. I was shooting a bow that I had taken on a moose hunt that was set just below 80 pounds. I had shot it for about a year through all kinds of NFAA tournaments, and heavy long practice sessions, and never really ever struggled at all. However there came a day on the hill when the temperatures were down in the lower 20's, and there was even a slight breeze. I stood for hours with my hands jammed in my pockets, and my shoulders all crunched up and shivering. Every shooting muscle was stressed, tight and constricted against the cold breeze. A doe came right along the trail just as it was supposed to, and I grabbed my bow and began to draw just like I had done all year long, and I could not get it back. I struggled three times and finally broke the damn thing over and of course by that time, I had nothing left to settle down the sight pin so I just let it back down and watched the deer move on down the trail. If anyone had ever told me that that could happen, I never would have believed it. But there are conditions that will make it happen. That night, I dropped 10 pounds off the bow, and have never had it up to 80 pounds again.

Well, all I can do is to relate 50 years of hunting the same state land parcel which spanned before and after the advent of the carnival atmosphere of bikers and hikers and invasion of clusters of laughing, shouting people engaged in all kinds of recreational activity in a rather constant fashion, and I can tell you through that personal experience that the critters do not carry on with normal daylight patterns that they used to before the invasion. Yes, they have adapted, and those adaptations do not favor hunting. Yes there are certain activities that the deer have been trained to relate to food such as logging activities. And yes, with people showing up in unusual places at unusual times, there may be an occasional deer that gets pushed out of its bed and happens to run by a hunter. But that reduces your hunting to hoping for coincidence rather than using patterns, strategy and skill. So if jackULL is disgusted with the "Spookers" (I really do like that term ... lol) in his hunting area, I certainly am not going to suggest that it is all in his imagination or that he doesn't really know what he is talking about. I know exactly what he is talking about.

Now think back to all the previous years. Don't you remember that October is traditionally one of the windiest months? I can't remember an October when I wasn't all ticked off at the near constant howling winds. About the only time it stops is when it is a drippy, drizzly, damp, ugly, gray, day. Yes, some of the prettiest and pleasant days happen in October, but more often than not the weather just plain sucks!

I have seen the difference before and after the maze of mountain bike trails were hacked into the state land that I hunt. There has been a definite change in deer behavior and these formerly productive areas are now quite ruined for hunting. Yes, you may see deer hold tight while the "spookers" (I love that word....lol) go by. And yes they will continue to hold tight in their beds until after it gets dark. That's the other thing they have become accustomed to. They know that after dark these invaders are no longer there and the movement can commence. If you are a hunter, that's not exactly a useful pattern for them to develop unless you are a jack-lighter...lol. What can you do about it? .... Nothing. The state land is for the use of all citizens, and they are now deciding to push their right to use it and in the process pushing us out. And the state is encouraging it by allowing mountain bikers to hack trails into the hills and splatter paint all over the trees, and saw and remove trees that get in their way ..... All things that hunters would get severely fined for. One good thing is that as soon as gun season rolls around and the shots start going off, the terrified hikers and bikers and bird watchers run out of the woods in terror.

Ha-ha-ha ..... I guess as long as you are not the one paying the lawyer bills and the settlement, that advice is pretty easy to give. It is amazing how the attitude changes when you find out you are being sued.

GOL 9-103 does not totally exclude the liability of landowners toward recreationists. Assuming no fee is charged, the statute states that the landowner owes no duty to keep the premises safe for entry or use by recreationists pursuing the listed activities, or to give warning of any hazardous condition, use of property, structure, or activity on the property to persons entering for recreation. It also states that farm owners or lessees have no duty to keep their farms safe for use by recreationists or to give warning of hazardous conditions or uses of the property. However, landowners are not protected if they intentionally harm a recreationist, or if they "willfully" or "maliciously" fail to guard against, or warn recreationists of, a danger on the property. http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/ext/info/pubs/LegalFinancial/liability_boundary_posting.htm

Does NYS have a law against the waste of game animals? I know some states do, but I have never seen such a law here in NYS. If we don't have it, perhaps we need to have one.

Likely, the first challenge to such a law would result in the law immediately being struck down by the first court in which it were tested. There is a requirement in the system that makes criminal punishments fit the level of the crime. It is likely that there would be unanimous court agreement that treating trespass as a felony does not meet that standard.

Right. I was talking about an average law enforcement situation where there are no special and rare circumstances (and can be cleared up by showing proper paperwork). If any hunter was to be caught with a bullet hole in their archery deer, the enforcement of the law would be a piece of cake. Either you show paperwork that proves a legal right or get ready for a hefty ticket. That is a law enforcement tool that I would not want to see go away.

Well, of course it would be abused. Whenever you make poaching easy, even people who otherwise might not break the law are suddenly tempted. I think there is enough law breaking and poaching going on without practically promoting it.

OK, now there is one kind of tangible evidence that I was talking about in terms of finding out something about the effectiveness of a product. There is a demonstration that doesn't rely on some marketing scam or on the word of some hunter-hero on TV. Whether that is still enough evidence that it works in a deer hunting situation in terms of fooling his nose, remains to be seen. But at least it is evidence that the product does eliminate some odors and likely will help to some extent. Now let's spray up a skunk-sprayed dog with the stuff, and I will be a believer if that works too .... lol.

I am a little concerned with what weapons are used in the special seasons, otherwise I would be arguing for the abolition of all special seasons. There wouldn't be any need for them.

I didn't understand the original post to be limited to a "3 inch open sight mouse gun". In fact, I didn't see mention of handguns at all. The way it was worded was "firearm". That could include a scope sighted Thomson Contender or a 30-06 rifle ....right? And in terms of the "poachers poach" comment, I guess I don't understand that one at all. Just because people break laws we should make everything legal?

Yes, you always hear that you should go in deep enough so no one else will go that far. Ha-ha-ha..... that has been said so often that everybody wants to go there. I remember a bowhunt where I went way back in on some state land bow hunting. Right at the end of the day I watched some jogger all decked out in his shiny fluorescent tee-shirt and flashy jogging shorts running through the woods like a goofy-looking gazelle. This was on top of a super steep tall hill about 1-1/2 miles from any road. There have been other times when a gang of mountain bikers came shouting and laughing and screaming along the maze of trails that covers the land. Again, a long way from any road and at the top of a monster hill. And then there was the bowhunter that also had heard the story about how if you go in deep enough you will have everything all to yourself. This was dripping with sweat, and panting like a race horse looking for that mythical spot that no one else goes, carrying a loaded back-pack and a huge treestand, pretty much outfitted like a sweaty pack mule. He looked like he was having a wonderful time .... lol. He was a bit disappointed to see me sitting there. So, in today's health conscious world, there really is no place that is too far for a good many people to go.

It would be interesting to get an ECO's take on this question. Would he write you up? They still have a lot of leeway on how they enforce the laws. But here is a thought.... You need to do a little after dark tracking, and so there you are on the side hill with a loaded gun, and a light trying to do "the right thing". You lost the blood trail so your attention is focused on the ground. You don't notice that truck pulling over to the side of the road way down in the valley. Next thing you know, you have an ECO standing by your side writing you up for attempted jack-lighting, and he is confiscating your expensive gun, and generally making your life miserable and talking about a super high-dollar fine and maybe loss of hunting privileges. Was it worth it? What would happen if you had called the DEC and explained the dilemma before you started off with the gun and light? Any chance that they might have some less harmful suggestions that wouldn't wind up with all these dire penalties and still allow you to try to recover your deer?

If you can find an e-mail address at the DEC, I would think this would be the best way to make legal inquiries rather than using the phone or personal visits. That way, you receive back a hard-copy answer that you can keep. What I keep hearing is that a lot of the questions that are asked, are relative to things that are not clearly written. And if the laws can confuse you, they can confuse those that are supposed to be in-the-know. You may get a wrong answer, or an answer that an arresting ECO might not fully understand. It's always good to have something in your pocket that shows what you were told.

Does it make any sense to pass a law that make it impossible to enforce a whole battery of other laws? I hate to be a party-pooper, and the bearer of bad news, but when you make laws that make law-breaking easy and unenforceable, you have just written up an open invitation to have at it. Human Behavior 101.

First of all, such a law suggests that the bow and arrow is inadequate as a deer hunting weapon and needs an accompanying firearm to finish the job properly and ethically. Forget the ridiculous impossible quandary that such a law would pose for law enforcement. What would such a law say about the legitimacy of the bow as an ethical and adequate deer hunting weapon? I think that coalition of animal rights groups that proclaimed bowhunting as their primary target for elimination a few years back would be heartened by what this suggestion is really all about and what it is trying to say about bowhunting.

In my case, I am not dismissing anything, but simply questioning those that swear by the stuff without a single shred of evidence other than the word of the manufacturers or those that count on sponsors for their existence. Generally speaking, if I cannot find independent evidence that a product works, I will not recommend it to others, and often will not use it myself. And yet I hear people raving about the effectiveness of these sprays but when someone asks them how they know it works, or how they know they are using the best maker of these products, and all you get is blank stares and a shrug of the shoulders, which is pretty much what I got here when I asked the question.