Doc

What you are calling a litmus test is simply opposing views to some of the more controversial topics that are raised. That is all a logical part of a public internet forum. People have some deep seated opinions that they feel quite passionate about. Not everyone responds in a civil fashion, and that is unfortunate, but when you get into sensitive areas, you never know what tone the opposition replies will take. Frankly, when you start a topic that bashes the only effective pro-gun organization that gunners have, you should not be surprised in a forum consisting of a huge percent of gun owners that some in that forum are going to have some pretty strong opinions that do not agree with yours. That is not a litmus test, that is just common sense. I will agree that no one is going to agree with every position that the NRA (or any organization) takes. It is silly to think that you should or even could. But like I said before. If you are withholding support from every organization that you have some differences with then the result is that you simply are out of the system when it comes to protection of gun owner's rights. And if that is your position, then you are leaving your gun rights hanging out there waiting for the anti-gun machine to inevitably lop them off. I for one understand the impatience for people who simply ride the coat-tails of the NRA members and let them do the work while the nit-pickers reap the benefits. And I can also understand how that impatience might boil over into hostility. That's not bullying, and that's not a litmus test. That's simple human nature. Try for a moment to imagine if a member of PETA joined this forum and started bad-mouthing hunting. What do you suppose the reaction would be. If you can understand that, you should be able to understand how those that are invested in organized gun advocacy and pro-gun lobbying feel about someone slamming the one organization that unquestionably has been the solitary force beating back annual draconian gun legislation that is piled into the agenda of every session of government. What exactly have all these unaffiliated gun owners done to stop gun legislation besides whine about the NRA? Only one word comes to mind and that is "nothing". So those that do nothing are bashing those that do something. You can't complain about a reaction when you pick a fight.

I know we would like to assume that coyotes could never take down a healthy adult deer, but I have seen enough situations that show they can, including a case of domestic dogs of about the same size as coyotes pulling down an adult doe until I interrupted the action. So I have no doubt that the deer likely was a healthy individual.

Yup, I've seen it. I was in a hedgerow next to a field heading home. The field had a super dense thicket at the bottom. Heard a shot inside the thicket, a couple hundred yards down the field. 5 deer ran out into the field, and went up the hill into the woods. One of the five did a little circle back into the thicket and wasn't running in a way that looked quite right to me. All of a sudden a "hunter" popped out into the edge of the field. He took one glance to the right, and one to the left and went back into the thicket. A couple of minutes later I heard a car door slam, and the guy took off. Didn't look for tracks, blood or anything. So, I went down and found a huge doe laying there about 4' into the brush. Tagged her up, gutted her out, and away I went. Had I not seen this whole fiasco, that deer would have rotted right there. For some guys if the deer doesn't pile up right there on the spot, they assume it was a miss.

I don't understand the comment. Is there supposedly something stupid about knowing the terms of the law? What exactly is "so stupid"? I don't get it.

Here is why the question is so interesting, and yet so hard to put into words. It has all been bred into us. It is our natural state. We are predators. The results of evolution have put those traits into our species. Yes, most people have learned to suppress their natural instincts, but still it comes out in sports and all forms of competition. Others struggle with their nature as predators believing it to be a defect and they spend their entire lives trying to pretend they are something they are not. But we hunters take a more honest approach to life and do not deny our obvious products of our evolution or pretend there is something evil in predation that is part of humanity.

No, there is no litmus test for this forum that involves anything to do with the NRA. However, I do have a problem with not supporting the largest and most effective pro-gun/pro-hunting national organization in the U.S. I understand that not everyone agrees with every one of the principles and goals of the NRA. But, I also understand that it is not necessary to support 100% of any organization to recognize that the over-all results of what they do are in keeping with my ideals and goals. That is the one thing that keeps us from being a viable political force as gun owners is that we find any excuse, to the point of nit-picking, just to keep from joining. It becomes a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you are waiting to find a gun/hunting organization that you have absolutely no issues with, then I guess you have resigned yourself to never becoming a part of the pro-gun lobby. As for myself, I know the required power of being organized to safeguard shooter's rights, because those who would remove those rights are highly organized and highly financed and have become highly effective at whittling away at our rights. You cannot take on a well organized opponent without being well organized yourself. Those who refuse to be organized are simply tag-a-longs who are willing to let others carry the load so they can free-load off their backs. As to the 20% figure that you quoted, while not taking that number as gospel, I will simply say that if that number is anywhere near correct, you have just highlighted the amazing level of apathy among gun owners. As for me I choose not to be part of the apathetic. Your choice is your own.

This is one of the many ways that wildlife can go. No animal dies peacefully in it's sleep as so many anti-hunters imagine. Mother Nature is very brutal wildlife manager.

Nothing there for $49. There was kind of a dressy black one that had a regular price of $169, on sale for $119. The camo one was a regular price of two hundred and thirty something dollars, and had a sale price of $139. Quite a difference between internet prices and store prices. No battery or charger in any of those prices. They were sealed up in boxes, and the sales-dude wouldn't open any for me to try on. Talk about buying a pig in a poke .....lol. That's why I don't buy clothing online. It seems that sizes vary depending on what the article is, and where the damn things are being made. They had one on display, and it was a 3XL. It almost fit me and I am no where near that size, so that along with past experience with bogus sizing, there is no way I would buy anything without trying it on first. I think the battery is a special Craftsman battery pak which likely a few years from now, if you wanted to have a spare or replace a dead one probably would no longer be available ..... lol. Needless to say, I didn't buy one. Too bad because it would satisfy my archery needs perfectly.

A pile of them. I don't really keep track, but I didn't miss a lot of them other than when the weather was stupid, or I had appointments. On the highway? ........ None

I think that a list like that for every area should show up in every local newspaper as an embarrassment to those that think it is so great to ignore game laws. If the size of the fines doesn't act as a prevention, maybe a little good old fashioned shame from the very hunting peers that some of these jerks are trying to impress will help them take a more responsible view of the game laws of the state. Frankly, I am getting darned sick of people who laugh at the laws that I and so many others abide by. And if they don't happen to like a little exposure of their character to the public ....... tough!

We have one member that repels down the walls of the gorge, dressed in his loin-cloth with nothing but a hunting knife clenched in his teeth and goes where no mere mortal can go to find the huge monsters that reside there. He must have gotten some near-record buck out of there this season.

Ha-ha.....No more excuses for missed shots ....eh?

Law enforcement is a problem. Too few resources for such a difficult place to patrol. The fact is that it is an almost impossible job to do. That is why we all have to lend a hand if the laws are to mean anything. Also this idea of laughing when someone tells us about their lawless activities, and the congratulatory slap on the back needs to stop. Somehow, we need to instill some form of respect for the law such that people are more likely to police themselves rather than the wink and a nod that we see way too much of even here on this forum.

Congrats ....... Nice buck.

I can't remember where I got them, and I haven't seen any since, but I bought what they called a snowmobile boot and it is the warmest boot I have ever had. They come half-way up to my knees, have canvass uppers and rubber lowers and have felt liners inside. They are not too bulky or heavy. Actually I would like to be able to find a new pair but can't. They are getting so old and I have worn them so much that the tread is wearing down. I don't know whether Cabelas carries that kind of boot or not, but it might be something to keep an eye out for. Probably wouldn't really go too far wrong with any boot that has a felt liner. That is really the "business end" of the boots that I'm talking about. Add a pair of wool socks (Choose the boot size accordingly) and you're good to go.

Sorry, I was thinking (hoping) that maybe you had bought one and had some personal experience. I will say that the reviews are all over the map, even including one where the guy claims he used it once and it doesn't work anymore ...... lol. Of course none of them had the same concerns that a bow hunter might have about bulkiness. But I will likely be up in that area today, so perhaps I'll get a first-hand look at this thing (if they have it in stock.

Do they have the chargers on sale? any price on the charger? What kind of batteries do they take? How heavy is the coat itself? I may find myself at the sears in Eastview Mall some time tomorrow, and if things look right, I just may pick one up. I am looking for a real light-weight heated jacket that can be worn later in the season without things being so bulky that it interferes with my shooting form.

Yes, that is the center of the question actually .... Why do you enjoy it? We're all involved with hunting for a lot of different reasons, and I would guess it's obvious that we enjoy it or we wouldn't be doing it .... lol. But understanding why we enjoy it and what the fundamental attraction really is might just provide the key to successful hunter recruitment and perpetuating the sport off into the future.

Pretty much the discussion is about individuals and their opinions and their approach to, and thinking on, the adherence to legal shooting hours.

That's a problem, and always will be with conservation law enforcement. However, almost every hunter carries a phone these days that are capable of calling the TIPP line at the DEC. Providing real proof is the problem, but most of the guys who ignore hunting laws really don't want the attention of the DEC even if a bust isn't likely. I don't know, but the very fact that the DEC law enforcement is spread so thin makes it even more important that we become the eyes and ears for them in the woods. If a guy's name gets mentioned at region headquarters too many times, he may become someone who draws a lot of close scrutiny for all kinds of violations. But I will admit that enforcement is truly a problem in most game violations.

Some of these pages of replies may be serving the purpose of educating guys that there are a lot of people in the woods that have not decided to ignore game laws and perhaps the more obvious violations may not always get a free pass that everyone assumes.

One thing that should be remembered is that the coyote sits at the top of the local food chain in most parts of the state. Other than disease and the occasional vehicle, there is nothing to control these critters. It certainly doesn't hurt anything to have humans intervening and at least performing some level of control where otherwise there would be none.

There is also some sort of rebuilding of sanity when I am just sitting there quietly waiting for a deer to come along. The mind just wanders everywhere when you are in such a serene setting with only your thoughts to keep you occupied. For example at one of my ground stands, there is an old abandoned pole-line road from way back in the early days of rural electrification that runs from the main road down in the valet straight up the hill to an old dirt road behind about a mile and 1/2 long. It's hard to make out anymore, but the deer seem to know its there. I get a lot of mental images of like back then in the 30's or 40's. I can almost see the buggies rolling along with the spools of wire. And then there are the barely perceptible changes in tree sizes from some old pasture lot or ag field. And the huge rock piles in the middle of the woods where farmers have worked to pull rocks out a field that is all mature woods. So the attraction of hunting is not always about hunting. Sometimes its just sitting there think about the local history of long gone farming, and the hunters of days gone by, and sometimes even a few thoughts of what the place actually looked like back in the days before settlement. Old broken plow shares and horse shoes in the middle of the woods kind of tell you that these hills used to look a whole lot different than they do today. I have even found an old horse-drawn walk-behind potato hiller in what you can barely tell was the edge of an old re-grown field. These are some of the thoughts and observations that hunting gives me a reason and opportunity to experience.

This is the way new recruits are formed. My kids always got involved in tracking and hunting at very early ages. It works!

I'm not too sure whether their politics would be in any particular unified direction any more than our own. If I am understanding their general philosophy, they simply want to have more hands-on control as to the origin and preparation of what they eat. I'm not sure where any of that differs from my thinking. I have long been concerned about the chemistry of food that we are sold. And yes some of my hunting motives are about an attempt at getting some percentage of my food that is un-messed with. I hunt and eat what I get. I fish and eat what I get. I garden and eat what I get, and for quite a while I ran a limited livestock activity here to feed on the products of what I raised. None of that gave me any unique or related political views or biases nor did my food concerns change any views on gun control other than reinforcing my determination to safeguard gun and hunting rights. So I don't see any particular reason why we should be cowering in the corners of our own forum. Anyone who comes to forums does so to exchange ideas that likely are not identical to their own. I don't think they are any different. Frankly, I am not sure they are any different than any of us.