Doc

To understand what is happening as you draw any compound bow, you have to understand the force-draw curve of the compound bow theory. Here is the shape of a typical compound bow: As you can see, when the draw length has been reached, we hit what is called the wall. That is the point where the cam is no longer supplying any mechanical advantage. At that point, if you go any farther you are pulling directly against the force of the heavy limbs with no assist at all, and it does indeed feel like you have hit a "wall". There is a very short area before the wall that is called the "valley" That is the point of maximum reduction of pull force and is also the bow's "draw length". There is no "locking up" in any of this. It is simply a case of the draw force being dictated throughout the entire stroke of the cam until it no longer provides any mechanical advantage. Then, BAM, you hit the wall of the force draw curve. These force-draw curves vary a bit depending on the manufacturer's cam design, but they all follow that same path of a build up of drawing force to a peak weight and then a reduction of force down to a max reduction of force at your full draw weight. then there is a "null" point. And then no mechanical advantage at all ( full limb draw weight takes over). Without draw stops, you can continue to try to draw, but the force ramps up suddenly, and it becomes quite impossible to go much farther. It is very apparent when you have reached that point and you feel a very distinct "Wall" when you get there. In the "valley" of this curve is where today's bows have located a hard stop that wasn't there in previous designs. So now the idea is to pull against that draw limiter ("draw stop") where before you could actually draw a little less or a little farther and still have the same holding force. You used your anchor and body structure (bow arm length) to establish a natural draw length which was to position yourself in this valley in a consistent way at every shot. Some guys want their draw length to be just into the wall so that it does act as a draw stop to a certain extent, however it is a lot softer than the actual designed in draw stop. Others want to be somewhere in the middle of that valley and rely on a consistent anchor and draw length to find that actual location. At any rate, there is no "locking up" or any other damaging thing that can happen by trying to over-draw a compound, at least not while being drawn under human muscle power. Your cam simply reaches the end of it's useful assistance and you find yourself drawing the entire weight of the limbs. You won't be going much farther (if at all) when that happens.

Here is something you might consider. It would be great for aerial surveillance of the property also. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_pack

Are you guys going to re-run all these old worn-out arguments every time the word crossbow comes up? Everybody looks at the bowhunters and whines, "Can't we all just get along .....sniff .... sniff?" How about the rest of you abiding by that same sentiment.

They sure are getting some money from somewhere.

What a great study! Spanning 24 seasons. That kind of duration of a study almost never happens anymore. And the average shot distances, restores my faith in the restraint of bow hunters and their ability to make responsible shot selections.

Yes, there was compound archery before draw stops.....lol. And I'm sure that a whole lot of people are still using them. I know my bow isn't all that old, and if the OP is considering any used bows as he indicated at one point, there is a high likelihood that he will wind up without draw stops, especially on the lower end models. If that winds up to be the case it may be good that he has been told a bit about how to handle the situation.

Actually that is not true. For those that were not interested in merely flaming, it was a very interesting discussion about a lot of the archery jargon that a newcomer should be trying to become acquainted with. There are a lot of things to be learned when people simply stop and read what is trying to be said. I wouldn't hesitate to ask advice here, and have done exactly that on several occasions.

Well, that explains it. I have never had a bow with draw stops on it. So naturally absolutely none of that effects anyone who is buying a bow that doesn't have draw stops. That would have been a nice little detail to mention that would have shortened that part of the conversation by a lot. So meanwhile back to those that have the fixed anchor point instead of draw stops ...... lol.

That sounds like fun. I haven't ever hunted rabbits with dogs. It sounds like it gets pretty exciting.

That would be fun. I don't think it is something that a guy could make a whole lot of money at though.

Any fish in that pond? Maybe you can head out in the afternoon and spend some nice relaxing time catching supper. What a life!!

I'm sick of this crap too. But here in western NY, let's not forget that March can be one of the meanest, ugliest months of the year. Historically March generally is good for at least one good significant dump of snow. It is generally a large volume of heavy, sloppy, gloppy, snow of the consistency of ice cream. So woodchuck and robins or not, I'm still expecting some heavy winter.

I guess the show being talked about is Alaska the Last Frontier with the Kilcher family. I love the show, but I really have to wonder where all the ATVs, tractors, gasoline, top of the line guns, tarps, and fishing poles, etc., etc., all comes from. The theory of the show is that they are several generations of subsistence farmers. They have a few cattle, but is that enough to supply them with all that stuff? Just for the sake of entertainment, I pretend that it is ..... lol.

There are so many of them. The first bow killed deer ranks right up there as maybe the most memorable experience. And then there was the time that I shot a does at 3 yards as she came around the side of the same tree that I was using for cover. And maybe that severe case of buck fever that that one monster gave me a few years back. Yeah, it goes on and on with countless experiences. They are really hard to rank. But I will say that everyone that ranks at the top involves my bow.

Interesting observation. And then add to it that the time of year is such that the deer are in a food deprived state, it sure does seem like we are baiting the deer onto the roads. Maybe it's another herd population control program ..... lol.

That is what was great about Mulaney's tests. They were all done with standardized, machine-shot, tests with charted results. He did keep it to an apple-to-apples method of comparison. His tests were primarily about performance and not the touchy-feely judgments. Yes, he did have his little editorial comments about smoothness and feel, but the meat of his tests involved force draw curves and speeds and trajectories and that sort of information. It did give you a pretty good idea of what bows were the dogs of the industry and which ones were putting their research money where their mouths were. I will agree that the best tests are actually shooting them, but there are so many different bow manufacturers and models to chose from that it really is kind of nice to step into the bow shop having a list of leading contenders. It kinds of keeps you from irritating a bow shop owner with a full day of bow trials .... lol. Plus it was just fun to be up on the performance of all the new entries into the market. I really do miss these tests and I was just wondering if anyone had taken over his work.

Let me just ask this one more question. What are you physically using as a draw check that tells you to stop drawing the string if you are not using a physical touch-point as an anchor. And don't just say "the bow's draw length". I am talking about the physical feel or sensory trigger that tells you this is far enough. Here's what I am getting from your explanation. I am picturing that you are using the feel of the wall of the force/draw curve to tell you to stop drawing back, and the anchor (which is not really an anchor) is mere the default location. I will assume that you have the bow set up to make that happen when the nock is aligned with your eye. Is that what you are saying? I am only asking because what I am getting from your explanation is perhaps the most bizarre set-up that I have ever heard described. And frankly, you really have my curiosity going. I have been around archers all my life, and have encountered an awful lot of them, and it has always been that you chose a repeatable, consistent anchor somewhere on your face and the bow's draw length was chosen to accommodate that. I know that I am dragging out this discussion a lot longer than I should, but I am always open to learning new things and new ways of doing things, and I must admit that this part of the discussion has really piqued my interest.

Calm down Bunkie. For crying out loud, you post a response that has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying and you think that I didn't notice that you aren't even reading what I said. Now I do have a lot of time these days, but I still don't feel right wasting it on someone who is not even listening to the responses. Now I'm not going to get involved in your "holier than thou" comments and other little cutesy quips. I don't have time for that either. I simply think that it would be better just to simply skip trying to converse with you on this subject any longer because a one-side conversation isn't really all that interesting.

"Let me ask you this, assuming accessories never change, do you believe there is a correct DL for a shooter?" Yes "Do you think its optimal to have a shooter with a nock at his ear at full draw or perhaps at the chin if that is what is comfortable for him?" That's a little tougher question because I have seen pros use all kinds of anchors. I have never seen the one back by the ear yet .... lol. I do think that comfort and super-consistent repeatability is the major requirement of an anchor. Not that it's relevant, but my anchor puts the calipers of the release at the corner of my mouth. "Do you agree that the nock should be under the eye at full draw?" I agree with the logic you have provided for that anchor selection. I am not sure that my anchor is exactly there, but likely it is very close to that. Here is where we have to slow down and pay very close attention to what is being said: I think you are doing an excellent job of convincing me that adjusting for a D-loop addition by changing anchor is not a real smart option. So a bow that has been measured up without using a D-loop should not be counting on an anchor change to compensate when the bow is finally accessorized with a D-loop later .... right? With exactly the proper anchor as you have described, you have just lost 1/2" of pull of the string when you do add the D-loop .... right? Sounds to me like the string is no longer being pulled back to the previous anchor (The D-loop is, but the string is 1/2" in front of the D-loop), and therefore is not rolling the cams over quite as far as they did when you weren't using the D-loop. Am I right so far? Now, doesn't that mean that the cams have not rotated all the way back to the valley like it used to when you had no D-loop? Your draw length has not changed. The bow's design draw length has not changed. But the bows reaction to that same draw length is now pulling the string 1/2" shorter than it did without the D-loop. The bow is not functioning in the part of the valley that I want it to any more, is it? Now what do I do? I shouldn't really change my anchor. It is in the optimum location. I can't shorten my D-loop any more. I'm down to a 1/2 inch already. I can play with the length of my release but if I don't move my anchor, all that does is move my elbow and hand back 1/2" further. If that anchor doesn't move, I will never get that 1/2" back that the D-loop cost me. Am I correct so far? Wouldn't it have been great if the bow had been ordered with a measure length that considered that 1/2" loop in the first place? Ok guys. There is my best shot at justifying measuring draw length with the D-loop installed. Where am I wrong?

All these tweaks and adjustments and even changes in anchor are simply trying to alter things to re-match your personal draw length back to the bow's as-purchased draw length after changes in equipment have forced you to do so ...... right?

best non-answer we have had on this thread so far. look, you aren't even reading my replies. That answer isn't even relative to anything in my quote. This conversation is not really being taken seriously or even being responded to. I am wasting my time with someone who doesn't even read replies or care what the discussion is even about. I really shouldn't be doing that.

I am not the expert on what all shops in NYS do. I'll leave you with that title ....lol. And even if this is not done, that does not mean that it shouldn't. Maybe shop owners don't want to take the time for extra steps. Maybe they feel that extra 1/2" is insignificant. Maybe they don't even know that a D-loop will be put on the string? Maybe they are thinking that whatever you decide to put on your bow is your problem. Maybe they are assuming that you will fiddle-fart around with your anchor or your release length or do whatever nonsense you have to do to make things work for you. I am not a mind reader. Frankly your question is irrelevant as to whether it is a good idea to spec out a bow's requirements using the exact accessories that will be shot on the bow. But why is it that you will not (cannot?) point to the flaws in my set-up/measuring procedure? Why aren't you telling me why it is wrong and where it will lead to improper results and problems? Why is it a problem to spec out a bow's requirements using the exact accessories that will be shot on the bow? Try answering a few questions for a change instead of just saying, "Well gosh it simply isn't done".

And you are assuming that it is not. Look, this is not a popularity contest. You have 4 guys thinking one way and just about as many or more that agree with what I am saying. So what? does that make one position any more correct than the other? This isn't a majority rules discussion ..... lol. I am waiting to hear somebody, anybody, explain what part of my set-up procedure they disagree with and why. I hear a lot of, "Well, jeez, that's just not the way it is done". I don't hear anyone saying, "that simply is the wrong way to go, and here is where that will get you in trouble". Why is that? Why would anyone spec out a bow's requirements only using some of the components that those requirements rely on? Have a go at explaining that to me.

Just make sure that when you leave either side, that boat is securely fastened to something substantial and pulled up high and dry on the bank.

Yes, a plea of this sort works as a wakeup call for those that would just as soon not see them in the bow season. But thanks for the reminder .... lol.