Doc

Citizen surveillance technology is funny? What a strange world this has evolved into.

I will say that I have passed on similar shots, and I don't regret it one bit. I simply have a standing rule that if the deer is running, I do not shoot. That keeps these kinds of decisions real simple. I do not practice running shots. I believe that a target that is moving up and down as well as forward with varying speeds is not something that I can call a high percentage shot selection for single projectile ammo, and that is the criteria that I use in determining whether to pull the trigger or not.

Well, it sure isn't good news, but it also is not the end of the legal battle either. This would be a bad time for everyone to throw their hands up in the air and start withholding support for the next rounds of legal work. I too am a believer in not looking at this thing through rose colored glasses, but understand that this is not the end of the legal activity. And understand that we still need money to continue the fight. However, this will definitely encourage Cuomo and his merry band of gun control legislators. While we are regrouping on the legal front, let's not slack off the political activism that is up ahead of us (not that far ahead either). These creeps are all slapping each other on the back over their supposed conquest and disposal of gun owners rights. I think we have to make sure that they pay the price for their sneaky underhanded methods of shredding the 2nd amendment. We need to make them wish they had never voted for that thing or we can expect more similar and worse acts to be coming at us fast and furious. Emboldened by their successes, they will be coming at us with everything they've got unless we convince them that their careers are at stake. This act is bad enough, but I am looking just a little farther down the road.

We started out with the traditional kind of deer drives. You know the whistling, shouting, making as much noise as possible. Those drives always produced shots at deer flying by and lead flying in every direction and once in a while enough lead would land in a deer that it would finally have to fall down .....lol. After a couple of those, I began to decline the invites on a regular basis. Our drives began to take on a bit of finesse and were designed to convince the deer that they were outsmarting us. They would move along at a much slower sneaky pace, and the running shots were avoided. It was basically some people carefully still hunting very slowly toward some standers. The whole thing was brought down several levels so that a bit more control was achieved. Safety rules were developed and followed. And then I started drifting away from even these kinds of events and began once in a awhile participating in "one still-hunter/one stander" kinds of pushes. Now, with this attitude favoring individual achievement rather than turning my deer hunting into a "team" sport, I rarely get involved in even that anymore. I don't have anything against any of these kinds of drives, they just simply are not my thing anymore. In fact, later in the seasons when the deer go into their invisible mode, I am happy to hear those guys whooping and hollering. It lets me know that someone is out there kicking those critters in the butt and getting them on their feet. It sure beats a woods full of hunters snoozing at the base of a tree while the deer are in their hide-outs snoozing in their beds.

Another great question. One might wonder if that doesn't put it in the political column. Unless they come out with some statement that AR is harmful to deer management, they are basically saying, "I don't care". That would take the issue out of the hands of the DEC and put it into the political arena wouldn't it?

I have seen deer tracks in the snow that followed my exact drag of a harvested buck that spanned a bit more than a mile. In other words this deer had tracked me and my dead deer from over the hill down to my yard. Why did it do that? It would appear that it was scent tracking the blood trail from the drag. Was that something sexual in nature? Related to curiosity? Was the motivation similar to what was going on in the original post? There's still an awful lot that we don't know about these critters isn't there?

Ok, there may be some instances where management decisions are rightfully political. One instance that comes to mind is the decision, county by county, to allow rifles for deer hunting. Regardless of where you personally stand on that issue, I'm thinking that this is an issue that impacts all citizens, landowners in particular, and is an issue that needs in some procedure that allows public input from all concerned citizens. It is not an issue that should be completely in the hands of a biased government agency. Hence, I do believe that this is a hunting issue that is rightfully decided in the legislative process. I'm sure there are others that are truly general population issues and belong in a domain that allows public discussion and input. So, I can almost see some kind of vague guide-line that may define types of rules and regulations that need to have wider control than simply a single bureaucracy. But I'll tell you that it is truly a fuzzy and inconsistent line that is drawn that leaves me wondering just who makes the decisions and with what guidelines. However, getting back to the original post, you have to ask if antler restrictions are really one of these issues that require general public participation in the decision making process. My feeling is that it is strictly a deer management decision that does not impact the general public. That sounds like a DEC decision to me and not a political decision.

There are a few things that involve morals and ethics with hunters that promote a wide disparity and often incendiary situations when these items get involved in discussions. First of all, a lot of our moral and ethical perceptions about hunting are rooted in family, generational and geographic traditions. We tend to simply parrot back the things that were handed down to us personally by parents and other relatives and other authority figures that we have come in contact with throughout our lives. Those things are not always similar or compatible from one hunter to another. Also, we tend to be a bit conflicted because what we do involves the death or potential suffering of critters. That in itself increases the scope and stakes for our ethical positions. most of us do not take that aspect lightly. There is also a wide difference in what hunting means to each of us, and how we each believe is the "proper" ways of conduct. There are elements of fair-chase that we don't all agree on. The levels of required challenge reach both extremes. There are other things that set us up in concrete as far as principles that we refuse to back up on. And then there is the way that we take a smattering of life experiences and conjure up even more iron-clad ethical stances based on a truly insufficient number of data points. So when we see so many of these discussions turn a bit ugly, it generally is the engrained very personal ethical standards that we all have been handed and tend to live by with no compromise. It may not always be pleasant, but I think it is all very understandable and explainable. And none of us are exempt.

Ok, so how would you like to be sitting in the middle of the Canadian wilderness almost 100 miles from the nearest sign of civilization, when all of a sudden an ear-splitting ferocious growling and snarling began from just outside the faint glow of the campfire? Also, suppose no one had a firearm and all of the hunters only had bows for defense? Imagine having no walls to get behind for protection other than the thin, flimsy walls of back-back tents. Well, that's what happened to the 4 of us on our 1988 Canadian moose hunt. The sound and circumstances were absolutely terrifying. The paralyzed feeling of doom, terror, and helplessness took over the camp. Pretty dire situation ....eh? Well, maybe not really .... lol. While we were very strict about limiting excess weight and volume of our cargo, there was one smart-azz member of this hunting party (me) that had a little something extra rolled up in his sleeping bag. You see, I had this vision one night back at home when I engaged in a game of tug-of-war with our dog using an old towel. I was amazed at just how crazy-mad she sounded with her deep growling and snarling. The harder I pulled on the towel, the louder, crazier, meaner and wacked-out she sounded. She sounded like some crazed timberwolf with rabies. That's when it struck me that if I were to record that violent growling rampage and play it back in a camp-type of setting, the reactions might get a bit hilarious. So, back at camp, as soon as it got dark, I pretended to head out into the darkness to relieve myself, and turned on the portable tape player that I had smuggled in. I had put a 15 minute leader of silence at the beginning of the tape so no one would connect my earlier trip out with the vicious sound that would be terrifying the camp later. The results were better than I expected. Within seconds of the pandemonium beginning, everybody was diving for any sharp instrument that they could find to defend themselves. At that point, things got pretty chaotic until the hero of the group (me) volunteered to go out and chase off the unknown beast, armed only with my hunting knife. Ha-ha.... that should have been their first clue that something was not right. Finally at the end of my super dramatized stalk out into the darkness, I made a heroic dive onto the tape player and jumped back up holding the tape player, declaring that I had slain the beast. Why they didn't throw me into the lake, I'm not sure. But eventually we all had a great laugh and a hunt adventure that none of us will ever forget.

Here's the problem. When the weather gets horrible cold, I have to start putting on layer after layer of clothes. Eventually, the thickness and bulk of the clothing will sooner or later effect my shooting ..... and not in a nice way .... lol. If it isn't outright string/clothing interference, it is an effect on my form as the clothing effects my draw. When we have parts of the season where I have to over-dress just to survive the cold, I simply end the season right there. I have no love for bugs and sweat, but there are ways to combat them that do not effect my shooting. Of course the earlier hunting is being done, the farther away from the rut it is. And so you lose all advantages over some of those more cautious bucks. The nocturnal ones stay nocturnal. One other thing that bothers me about "summer hunting" is the possibilities for spoilage if everything doesn't go exactly correct. There is one other thing that bothers me about all this driving of the bow season ever-earlier. Bowhunters have already become the target of envy from all other hunters, and it is probably only a matter of time before we find all kinds of other weapons jumping into that early season time-slot. At that point whatever benefits that bow hunting currently enjoys of hunting a fairly calm and patternable herd will be replaced by a more clogged up circus-like atmosphere. The result will be more leases or locked up land, more posting and less access. That sort of thing is already happening. Well, that's one theory anyway.....lol.

That is a great picture of a great deer. It is more than just the rack, the body shape, the attitude, the power, all of it just shows that this is the "bull of the woods".

A word about "drives". Not all drives are created equal. I have done a lot of two man drives with a designated stander and another guy still hunting in a strategic direction. Not every drive is the hoopin & hollerin style of circus depicted in that 2nd video. I have eventually weaned myself off of any kind of drives simply because I prefer to not make my hunting a team sport. For me, I see it all as an individual activity with success or failure relying strictly on my own abilities and efforts. Sure, I understand that in gun season, the idea of individual effort is usually a myth. There is a lot of success that comes from the understanding of "hunter" patterns, and escape route reactions to pressure from other hunters. But as best as possible I tend to "try" to make my own successes. I know that for many, that individualism doesn't really play a part or is much of a concern That's ok, but for me it is all about one-on-one between hunter and prey. That's why I much prefer bowhunting. Bowhunting relies on my scouting, my figuring out patterns, my ambush set-up, my shooting and my skills. Those that want to turn their hunting into a party, I understand it, I do see the appeal, I even participated in it for a while. Today it's just not my style. I guess we all change in one way or another over the years.

Great questions Mike. I have always been confused as to where lines are drawn for DEC regulation limits. I know there are some instances where a DEC decision based on management concerns might very well be in conflict with the wants and needs of landowners, businesses, and other concerned people so I understand that there has to be some kinds of checks and balances. It's just that those boundaries are not really very clear.

Ok, I have to ask. What do you think of the taste of wild goose? I've heard all kinds of opinions, so I figured I would ask for just one more. Another question ..... do you have to lease fields in order to hunt most areas? What's the current price for that kind of lease? I have been watching some guys occasionally hunting geese as I go into town, and I have a bit of an interest.

Does the DEC keep track of the availability of the courses or test sites? Would it do any good to contact them to see if anything is available and when?

There are no "what-ifs" regarding that this is a video that glorifies running shots....... Let's see if we can get to those 35 pages .... lol. We haven't had one of those in a long time.

Well, perhaps some of the language about this video is a bit stronger than I would use, but I definitely agree with some of the general thoughts behind those comments. I am not in favor of posting videos that glorify running shots regardless of whether or not they are successful. I am dead serious about being against running shots regardless of whether it is across a woods or down into the dirt. Running shots in most cases are a safety risk and a serious threat for not putting a deer down in the most humane fashion. It's not something that should be promoted .... in my opinion. The fact that he was shooting into the ground would have been a good point to have stressed in the video itself. I think that there is some level of responsibility that people should exercise when posting these hunting videos. I do wish they would practice a bit of self-restraint. Undoubtedly more than a few hunters have watched that video and have come away star-struck with the idea that hunting is all about knocking down as many deer as possible and as quickly as possible. That I think is the prime argument with the whole video and the reason that it has struck so many people in such a negative way. Let's put it this way .... It's not the kind of video that I would want shown in a hunter safety class.

I am purposely keeping it simple and straight forward. A simple up or down vote on these people to send to them a straight forward message that can't be confused. You vote anti-gun, I'll vote for your opponent. That is why I said that I am a single-issue voter this time around. I know there are other issues that need to be dealt with, but for this particular election, if you voted for the act, I am voting for your opponent. If you voted against it, you get my vote. That is the simple message I want to send and I don't want that confused by any other issues regardless of their merit. It is time that gun owners put the fear of God back into politicians, and we have the single issue to do that with if we can stay focused and on target. We have a unique situation available to us this time around. We have a situation that has unified almost all gun owners and has caused a significant united uprising. I have never seen this magnitude of anger and I don't foresee ever seeing it again. It is an opportunity that if squandered will never be available again. The trick here is to keep the campaign focused, simple and easy for the masses to get behind. That's the best way to maximize the effect of this opportunity. If we begin to head off into independent side directions, or in anyway complicate the message, we lose all benefit of the uniquely united position that we have. A simple, straight forward, focused, voting message is a statement that will last for many generations and make the politicians understand again that gun rights are dangerous to mess with if they value their careers.

I guess the thing that causes such a knee-jerk reaction is the almost hero-worship reaction that some guys had with looking at this video. I do wonder about a video that glamorizes taking these kinds of shots. I can see a lot of guys out there that are saying, "See .... see .... look at that guy. He's making running shots. How come you are always telling me that you should not take running shots"? I have a nephew that would react exactly that way, and he has a track record of wounding losses that nobody wants to even hear about. I suspect that a lot of proponents of shooting running deer are the very ones responsible for those rapid-fire 5-shot volleys that you can hear every year. Fill the air with lead and see what (or who) falls down. So, I do not support that kind of shooting. I am very vocal about it because I really don't want to be even in the same woods as those people. Maybe this guy has gone through enough deer to have developed some kind of wing-shooting gift on deer, I don't know. But the fact is that his video is obviously glorifying a shooting style that damned few people can actually pull off, and I know that the end result is more people in the woods trying to do what he has shown. So if I seem to be a bit disapproving, it's only because I am.

Not everyone advertises their anti-hunting sentiments. I think there are more antis out there than we realize. A little conversation at social gatherings, and you would be surprised at the number of people who really have no use for hunters and hunting.

In case it is escaping anyone's attention, the desired end result of these creeps is the total elimination of legally owned firearms of any sort. It doesn't matter what guns you use or how you use them, no one is escaping the attention of these gun-grabbing antis. Probably their most effective technique is the divide and conquer tactics. You know how it works .... "Oh it's only pistols, they will never come for our long-guns"...... "Oh, it's only those nasty assault rifles. I don't have any of those". As long as we are in a fragmented state and only worried about our own little part of the pie, they will continue to have their successes. So if the trap and skeet shooters think that no one is worrying about their little niche in the world of gun ownership, think again. And yes they too will be swept up in some of this anti-gun frenzy, and maybe they will recognize it or maybe they won't. But this campaign of legal harassment and elimination through cost will eventually hit all owners of guns.

Has he been replaced? If so his successor needs to be grilled a bit on where he/she stands on the SAFE Act. If his position is to be vacant until the next election, you all need to stay on top of it all until you have candidates to interrogate Interview. Examine voting records. Check with whatever gun advocacy organization that you belong to. They usually have done some research on up-coming candidates. If we're losing a pro-gun legislator, we need to be sure that the replacement is pro-gun.

Every year this kind of thing happens. the season ends and with a few days they are wandering around in my yard in broad daylight munching on shrubs ..... lol. Somebody has leaked a copy of the game laws to them.

Well, you are exactly right. I stated very clearly that what I am saying is an opinion. You know, that is what we do on forums .... state opinions. These are my observations, and I have been very clear that that is all they are. Probably as good as anyone's and even yours ..... lol. I never said that you must agree with me. I never said that you have to reply. If you don't agree with my observations and conclusions, that certainly is your right. Have at it ......or not.

We have the voting record pinned on this site: http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/17272-lest-we-forget/