Doc

Well, I'm quite impressed with any weapon that can repeatedly hit that small target 100 yards downrange. I doubt that I could do it. It would be fun to try. But at the very least I have to give credit where credit is due. That machine is quite impressive. I am no fan of crossbows, but I am intrigued that something could make a projectile behave that consistently over that distance. I also would be impressed with anyone who could consistently do that with a bow (I'm not sure there is anybody who can .... consistently that is). But I am not stingy with my appreciation of somebody doing something that I cannot.

I have to admit, as a landowner, I definitely had second thoughts about rifles in Ontario County. I didn't come out on the side of rifles for deer hunting very easily. I think there is enough info on the pro-rifle side to at least allow a trial period. I have to agree that those that will hunt irresponsibly will do so regardless of what kind of weapon they have in their hands. The only question is whether that irresponsibility can have its effects extended in distance because of rifles. There is also a question as to whether rifles will be promoting much longer shots where visibility into the background gets limited by distance. I don't have any answers or even predictions on those concerns so,I am enthusiastically on the side of the rifles and say that we have to wait and see. I will say this, if there is even one incident, especially one that injures or kills a non-hunter. We are likely to see a very fast reversal on this law But that isn't what you asked. I think the real question is how did rifles get allowed for varmints but not deer. I am not even sure that the rifles-for-varmints law is a legislatively controlled ruling. Chances are pretty good that when the varmint hunting laws were first conceived, it was just automatically assumed that hunters would have to use rifles in order to be effective. So why is the fate of rifles for deer hunting legislatively controlled. The more I find out about conservation law, the more inconsistencies I see. But here's some random thoughts: Deer hunting is done with a very dense hunter population as compared to varmint hunting. That means that deer hunting is a highly visible activity and gets a whole lot more attention. Deer hunters have been villainized by the public mostly because of actions of some hunters and because of public imagination. So they're not too interested in promoting longer shots. People automatically assume deer rifles are some kind of mega-powered weapon that fires bullets that can't be stopped. People feel that shotguns are 50 yard weapons and that a slug simply falls to the ground so they are very safe. When it comes to rifles for varmints, people really don't even think about that, and are not even aware of the activity.

Yeah, even I think you are blowing smoke with that claim. Most people will never have the form consistency to do that within their lifetime. Let's try to keep things a little bit credible....lol. In fact there are some people that will never be as accurate with their rifle as that guy was with that crossbow. I'm not sure what the point is that you are trying to make, but there sure is some wild stuff being thrown around in this thread.

I will take your word for the 100 yard vertical bow shots. I haven't seen any that were as accurately placed and repeatable as that PSE contraption, and I would be surprised if there really is anyone who can consistently hit that tiny orange dot at 100 yards with a vertical bow. and to even do it once has to require an amazing amount of dumb luck. But I expect that that guy could have sat there doing that all day long and never be very far from that orange dot. But actually, I believe that even you have already admitted that crossbows are easier to shoot and more accurate than real bows. I honestly don't even understand what you are arguing about when somebody shows you a video that demonstrates that fact. But what struck me, watching that guy plopped down effortlessly holding his breath and taking all the time in the world to slowly squeeze that trigger to get that perfect "surprise" firing had absolutely all the elements of a guy out on the target range with his favorite rifle. I'm familiar with that kind of shooting because I have my rifles out target shooting quite a bit. But there was nothing in his form and discipline that even remotely reminded me of shooting a bow .... nothing. And that's because the crossbow allows all the precision elements to be automatically done for you (just like a rifle). It isn't archery. It's rifle shooting with a bolt-flinging contraption .... lol. I was looking for the consistent grip on the handle, the proper bow arm position, the back tension, the anchor position, the perfect release under the hold weight pressure, and the perfect follow through. But even without all that form stuff, the arrow went right into that tiny orange dot. The crossbow did all that stuff for him. Even his sighting was assisted with a rifle-style scope. No, there was no archery being done there. But it was a perfect demonstration of the accuracy and effortless ability to repeat with a quality crossbow and it would be foolish for anyone to insist that it would be that easy with a bow. Actually, I have seen a lot of shotguns that are not that consistent.

My first compound was the Bear Whitetail (top picture). I took an awful lot of deer with that bow. I paid something like $85 for it. 6 Years later I sold it for $100. There was no way that that thing cold ever fail other than strings or cables. I could have used it for a pry-bar if I had needed to and then went out to shoot a deer with it. I have no idea what the arrow speed was. We didn't really worry a whole lot about that. It just wasn't all that important (and probably isn't all that important today). Just a good old faithful bow with excellent flight. The Oneida Eagle was just a bit too radical looking at the time, so I moved on to several PSE bows, and then more Bear products, a Proline and then a Golden Eagle, and finally the Mathews MQ-32 that I am shooting today. Your pictures brought back some great memories of that faithful old Bear. Thanks for posting them.

Man, it is getting downright depressing. There always seems to be enough B.S. to justify almost anything that they do, but the end result has been proven over and over to be a good swift kick in the rear for us. These various countries have learned to play us like a fiddle. They have all learned how to work our system just like our own welfare recipients have been taught to make a lifestyle out of welfare. Welfare is welfare regardless of whether it is foreign or domestic. How much more can we continue to pay before the system dries up and breaks. I believe we have the right politicians in place to find out.

You may find out that you like the draw-lock better than a crossbow. I can't tell from just looking at it, but there might just be a significant weight benefit with the draw lock.

I'm sure that when they originally created a bow season, there had to have been a recognition that a bow while lethal enough to kill a deer, is also a weapon that has strong risks of wounding loses. Even those that practice religiously run the risk of not having the results go the way they want. So, if we want to fool-proof the results with equipment improvements, where do we draw the line. Why go half-way with it. If we are really concerned that some deer will be wounded and we think that an improvement of the weapon used is the cure ..... well, you know where that leads. The other thing when you are thinking about the implementation of crossbows to alleviate irresponsible use of bow season weapons is the fact that there are no guarantees that a lot of new crossbow hunters won't be overestimating the capabilities of the crossbow. It is just possible that with all the advantages that we are hoping will promote cleaner kills, newbies may be just good enough to be dangerous. You know what I mean ... just good enough to get the bolt into the animal somewhere rather than the clean miss that is more typical of a beginning or unpracticed bow hunter. One of the appeals of the crossbow is the notion that you can jump into bow season without all that pain-in-the-neck practicing and development of skills. How many deer will these people go through before they realize that even the wonder-crossbow has some practice required even if only to understand the limitations. What I am saying is that irresponsible hunters will be irresponsible regardless of the weapon.

I don't know whether it's true of all swamps, but the ones that I have been in have so darn many trails that it is hard to figure out which one to stand at. Honestly, it seems like deer travel through swamps is basically random. You can locate at good busy looking trail intersections, but they are everywhere also. Plus, I'm not sure how much of the action in swamps is actually done in legal shooting hours. I have spent a lot of time hunting our swamp, and have yet to actually see or get a deer there even though the trails are always mudded up with all kinds of fresh-ish tracks. Obviously, there is something that I haven't learned about swamp hunting .... lol.

I think what bothers me so much about that picture is the casual attitude that some bears are developing about humans and their homes. It isn't natural for wild animals to lose that fear of humans. And then for the animal to be of that size and with those killing implements, and also with kind of an ornery disposition, the situation looks like something that a person would have to be careful around and perhaps a bit concerned.

I have read that also from many other sources.

Well look, I'm not going to call you a liar, but I will also say that every account that I have heard was unsubstantiated. I also noted that the people usually raving about the dozens of wounded deer were usually gun hunters who have a very vocal bias against bow hunters. Also I have talked to deer processors who claim that they have run across a few arrow-wounded deer over the years, but it is not really a significant number. Also, I log about as many hours hunting as anyone and have only found one un-recovered dead bow-killed deer. So I have to say that I generally regard these claims as substantially exaggerated. I make no claims that deer are not wounded and lost during bow seasons, just like I make no claims that the same thing doesn't happen during gun season. But what I have found is that the accounts of bow wounds are generally a larger target of exaggeration. I will repeat that I have to question a line of logic that says that we need more technology in bow seasons to make the sport more humane. I will also say that I have never heard anyone say that the reason they shoot a compound is to improve the humanity of bow hunting. And I hope I never do hear that kind of comment. One thing we don't need is people impugning the humanity of our equipment or suggesting that we need more technology in the sport to make up for those that hunt irresponsibly.

1 - First of all, don't believe that everything on the market works, especially when it comes to archery equipment. I have been around new bow equipment inventions for enough years to quote you a practically never ending list of failed products (in fact I own some of them....lol. 2 - Now there is a comment from somebody that is trying to push crossbows so much that they won't even admit to what they just watched. There's no point even trying to have a discussion when a mind is that made up.

Check out this link: http://www.drawloc.com/content/line-draw-loc-trigger-slow-motion If you can use a crossbow, it looks like this will be as easy to cock and probably a lot less heavy and awkward to shoot. The only thing is that you will have to forgo the bipod and probably the rifle-style scope.

A lot of this stuff borders on saying that the vertical bow is not really a humane weapon because some of the people using them do not do so responsibly. There is the implication that more advanced weapons should be inserted into bow season and maybe even replace vertical bows to reduce wounding losses. I don't agree with that line of reasoning. I really don't care for where a little more of that bogus line of logic could lead if that banner were to be picked up by the anti-hunters and those that are on the fence about bow hunting. There is a fair representation of that attitude among gun hunters also who are fond of repeating unsubstantiated accounts of seeing deer running everywhere with arrows sticking out of them. Yes, if that line of thought had been prevalent back in the days prior to bow seasons, there probably would never have been a bow season in the first place. This is not a direction that like to see the crossbow controversy going.

That's not the way I heard it. Most initial AR decisions were legislatively driven. The DEC has said that there is no biological imperative that suggests that AR is required in their management activities. And that AR decisions are based on social wants and needs. That is not exact wording but captures the essence of statements made by Jeremy Hurst (DEC head biologist). In other words, AR has been implemented in certain WMUs because of political pressure and mandates to do so. I never heard any DEC personnel ever say that AR was required for the health of any part of the state herd, and as pointed out above, they have said exactly the opposite.

Actually given the protective nature of bears with cubs makes you wonder why these incidents aren't more common. Imagine stepping out your front door and encountering a sow with young cubs. I don't think I ever want to have that happen. Also, in areas where bears are fairly dense, it is not uncommon for them to break into vacation cabins and screened in porches in search of food. I also have heard of them destroying campers and ripping into pick-up caps.

I find it pretty strange that certain laws and seasons are so different from the Northern Zone to the Southern Zone. Yes I can understand things that are habitat or population based might differ from one area to the next, but some of the general regulations such as back-tag requirements are ridiculous to be different from one place to another. There are some things that differ that I can understand such as the rifle laws for deer hunting. When it comes to things that affect non-hunting residents as well as hunters, then it is understandable why it becomes a locally controlled ordinance. But a back-tag?

I always have a problem with back tags because I always seem to have a backpack along, and it is on while I am in motion and of course off when I am on stand. Also, often there is a change of outer wear when I get on stand (trying to beat the sweat problem). It makes for a whole lot of wrestling around trying to pin that tag onto a different garment. And of course I usually forget to pin it on until after everything is zipped up. That's usually when I discover that my back tag is pinned to something I just covered up with my camo suit .... lol. ... start over.

Yes, a bit like closing the barn door after the horse escaped ... lol. But I suppose it will supposedly keep it from happening again in the future. As far as their existence in the wild is concerned, yes there are documented observations and even a few that have been killed. There were pictures in the paper of a small herd down in Allegheney Park. Also we had a local farmer who got his picture in the paper with a pretty big hog that he had shot after finding it be-deviling some of his livestock.

Have you ever seen pictures of the Siberian climate where the Russian Boars originated? It makes our climate look tropical.

My guess is that you would be just as happy eliminating all "special seasons" and simply have an "all-weapon" deer season. I may not agree with that thought, but I do respect it as being honest and consistent.

No, a crossbow is not by definition a bow. Arrow Flinger had it exactly right when he said, "A Crossbow isn't a gun or a bow. Its a CROSS between them both". And my objection to crossbow inclusion into bow season involves the precedent being set that further moves the weapons restrictions farther and farther away from actual bows. Yes there are some very distinct features of a crossbow that trashes many of the original challenges that bow season was created for. Yes, these might be adequate reasons for opposition. But I see no end to the ever expanding re-defining of what is allowed in bow seasons. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and for me that line involves stocks, bi-pods, and the basic elimination of the disciplines and consistencies of shooting a bow.

Bill, didn't you keep your bow-press from the time when you ran the shop? You didn't get rid of all your stuff did you? As you know, there is a big difference between the level of accuracy that you need for hunting vs. what is needed for competition. I know when I was into competition, I needed the smallest peep that I could use without interfering with my vision. That was a big thing then and made a significant difference in my scores. I know that back then I would never have used a 1/4" peep. However, today my only concerns (theoretically....lol) is having enough accuracy for hunting distances and adequate vision in low-light conditions. So I have a 5/32" hole in the peep. That seems to work well for visibility and accuracy for hunting purposes.

That is an unbelievably low price for that kind of quality. I'll have my order in before the end of the day .... lol.