Doc

Actually, any time there is a muzzleloading season in process, I do wear blaze orange. It's no different than a shotgun season, just fewer participants. I don't worry about it too much during bow season, because I don't believe there has ever been a case of a bowhunter accidentally shooting another hunter, thinking he was a deer. The range and nature of a bow doesn't really lend itself to that kind of longer distance mis-interpretation of the target. Also, the nature of an arrow is such that if a target is so obscured that you can't tell the difference between a hunter and a deer an arrow is not likely to get far enough to do any harm. My feeling is that if someone gets killed with an arrow and a claim of target mis-identification, the authorities better start opening up a homicide investigation .... lol. Doc

Great pictures! Aren't they such a pretty bird ....... a face only its mother could love .....lol. That's funny, but I can't remember ever seeing one of those critters back when I was a kid. I don't know whether I just wasn't paying attention, or whether they just never came this far north back then. Doc

yea Doc, once again your way off target, if you haven't noticed the crossbow threads are the ones generating most of the interest on this forum with hundreds of replies, and yes Doc most of them being very positive. and Doc if there's so little interest in the crossbow threads why are you almost always guaranteed to be one of the first to chime in, LOL, No, I am just noting that of the 35 messages you have posted here, all but 5 of those were pushing your agenda of crossbows. It seems that you have some sort of fixation, and almost nothing else about hunting that interests you. Now as each crossbow topic dies off, you are frantically scampering from forum to forum feverishly trying to fill them up with your little crossbow rantings to keep your only avenue of interest alive. I just thought it was a little weird is all. Doc

That's some darn good shooting. That's not the accuracy that I understood the primitive versions of muzzleloaders were capable of. That's getting pretty close to shotgun accuracy. In fact, given iron sights and shooting off-hand, I probably couldn't do as well at 100 yards ...... but then I never was worth a darn shooting off-hand.....lol. Doc

By the way, thanks to those that have posted pictures of their groundstands. We never do get a chance to see all the different approaches and constructions. Next chance I get, I will take some pictures of some of mine. My stands are not quite as complex as some of the ones pictured here. Generally speaking. I try to find a large tree, clump of trees, or some major "blowdown" as the framework, and then just pull up dead logs to construct a wall (taller than head high) that I can stand behind. The trail that I am watching is 20 yards or less on the other side of the wall. As a rule I sit in a position where I can see up and down the trail, and as soon as I see the first flicker of brown , I am out of my seat and in tight against the wall, getting ready to draw my bow, and then waiting with bow drawn for the deer to pop out the other side of the wall. The system works well except for when the deer comes from a direction that is unexpected. With bucks that happens quite often......lol. Another difficulty arises when I am standing there with bow at full draw and the deer gets side-tracked with some browse or an acorn or something, or just stops for a minute looking around. It's amazing how heavy that draw weight can get and how fast the arms start shaking. The ugly part is that as soon as you give up and collapse the draw, that is when he starts moving again and zips right across the shooting lane. But then that's what makes all that stuff so exciting. Anyway, thanks again to all that posted groundstand pictures. I'd like to see more of them. Doc

I think that as long as there are "special weapons" seasons, there will always be differences of opinions as to what belongs in those seasons and there will always be those that want to push and force themselves into those seasons, and there will always be organizations who do their best to protect the seasons of their members against the encroachment of inappropriate weapons. That's what they are supposed to do. Some people call it shooting themselves in the foot, others call it doing their job. If you want to test out that theory, just see what kind of hell you would start if you suggested that muzzleloader season be opened up to shotguns pistols and rifles. I've got a feeling that the NYMLA would all of sudden become quite exclusionary and darned vocal about it too even though there is no real justification anymore for a special muzzleloader season. Doc

Dawn to dusk is a long time, and as I said, I can do it on specific days of high hunting pressure. But man, I will tell you that I get awfully bored if too many hours go by without seeing something (even deer that I don't intend to shoot or one that doesn't offer a shot). Seeing a deer somewhere around my stand can help extend my stay, but when nothing is moving, and I am not hearing any shots anywhere, and I know that most of the hunters have charged out of the woods at 9:00 am or earlier to eat breakfast (or have already gone home), It gets impossible for me to tough it out for too many hours. I guess I am lacking in adequate mind games to stay motivated when every sign, sound and sight tells me that I am sitting there alone in the woods and the deer have already been put in a nocturnal survival mode that will not be disturbed unless I do it. There is nothing more boring than the hunter sitting here and the deer bedded there...... all day long. Doc

Oh man, that's mighty cold! Human life is held mighty cheap these days. Doc

Certainly, there are incidents where guys dressed in blaze orange get shot. It's hard to imagine, but we know it happens. I also will agree that even when guys in camo are shot, there usually has been some carelessness occuring with irresponsible shooting. However, in that second case, there most likely is shared responsibility with the victim contributing to the shooting. Here is something that always is rumbling around in my mind. We have this nice saying about being absolutely sure what's behind whatever we are shooting at. Well, in my estimation the only way you can abide by that is to do all your shooting on a certified rifle range where all vegetation in front of the target is removed, and a huge earthen backstop is provided behind what you are shooting at. All rod & gun clubs recognize this as the only way to be sure of what is behind the target and have spent great amounts of money and effort to create that kind of safe shooting area so that they can abide by the rule of, "always ensure that the area behind the target is absolutely clear". But, given the quality of todays camo patterns and colors, on just about any shot taken by any hunter, there is a possibility that some jerk could be hunkered in the background, dressed completely in some of that super-effective camo and be absolutely impossible to see. We've all seen the TV ads that show how totally a hunter can blend into a chunk of woods, and by golly the stuff really does work as advertised. So if we are really serious about being absolutely sure of the background behind the deer we are about to shoot at, we had better be doing all our hunting at the local rifle range. Obviously that isn't very practical, so there has to be some effort expended by all hunters to make themselves appear as obviously as possible as something human that shows up well in the woods. So, there is at least some reasonable responsibility in terms of how much precaution we take when dressing for safety. As far as I am concerned, the very least effort that satisfies that responsibility is to wear adequate blaze orange. Failing to do that is not only dumb, but it is irresponsible and very well can lead to an accident that can claim as it's victims not only the one shot, but the rest of the life of the shooter. I personally would like to see that responsibility written into law. Doc

I always suggest that any inquiries that you make regarding hunting legalities, try to get it in writing ..... email works good. And try to get names. A telephone call just doesn't provide any proof that you were told what you think you were told. When the time comes that you have to try to prove what you were told, everybody will suddenly develop a lapse in memory.....lol. Doc

A bullet proof rock bunker ....... I could use one of those for gun season over here ....... lol. Doc

Keep going sits. Eventually you'll have a crossbow trolling rig out in every one of the forum categories....... lol. I almost think you are unhappy that the crossbow got legalized. It's getting harder and harder to get anyone excited about the only topic you seem to have an opinion on......Ha-ha. But I know you'll keep trying.

I had a snowmobile accident ...... does that count? Back in my young and foolish days when we first moved onto our property, we used to heat with wood. At the same time, there was a sugar-bush that I was thinning out on top of the hill, so I figured that all those approx 6"-8" diameter maple logs would make good firewood if I could get them down to the house. So I figured I could use the snomobile. -No ATV's at the time-. So I got a heavy rope (about a 1" nylon rope) and bundled up about 3 or 4 at a time and skidded them down the hill to be cut up at the house. Well, the snow was pretty deep, and that was no problem while I was coming down the hill, but I figured I had better get up some speed when I got down off the hill to the flat parts. Here's where things got a bit nasty....lol. I started really moving out, and had to turn a sharp corner right at the bottom. I had a bit too much rope out behind and the logs rolled way out sideways and hooked behind a tree. Everything came to an absolute instant stop ....... except for me, the plastic windshield and the handle bars. I found myself laying about 5' in front of the machine, laying on top of the windshield and the handlebars still attached to the snowmobile only by the cables. I had busted that tubing that the handlebars attach to. No, I wasn't hurt other than for my pride. The language wasn't to pretty either. I had to disconnect the logs (no, the rope didn't break) and then rotate the skis by hand. walking alongside holding the handlebars to run the throttle I would move the machine ahead until I had to manually turn the skis then move ahead again. I did that all the way home. Then I had to go those last few yards up to the house with my wife standing on the front step doubled over laughing at me. It wasn't one of my better days (or one of my better ideas). I welded up the handlebars and got everything working again, but I never did pull firewood off the hill again with the snowmobile. Yes, and as far as the original load is concerned ..... The damned logs might still be laying over there as far as I know. Doc

In the wintertime, I have to ride down the side of the road to get to my mother's driveway to plow it out. I don't think I have any legal right to do that but I have to do what I have to do. So in order to cut down on the number of violations I might incur if I get caught, I keep my machine registered, with the little license plate mounted on the back, and I always wear my helmet (A real pain, but again, I do what I gotta do). I also carry insurance. I don't know whether that is a legal requirement (I think it might be), but I started doing that when I found out that my homeowner's policy doesn't cover such things as ATV's and other recreational vehicles down in the barn. By the way, as luck would have it, I was once passed by a state trooper while I was going down the side of the road and he didn't even slow up. So I don't know whether he just didn't want to be bothered, or maybe he wasn't too sure about the laws regarding ATV on the roadside, or maybe I'm totally misunderstanding the law about roadside ATV travel. Doc

So they were not shooting just a regular round patched ball as we usually define primitive muzzleloader bullets? Because I have heard people describe legally defined primitive muzzleloaders as being pretty much a short-range weapon as guns go (like out to 100 yards max). That's why I was having trouble correlating what I saw on that program with what I am hearing those say that actually shoot these things today. Like I say, I have never messed around with them, so I am totally uneducated in terms of their real limits. Doc

I have heard the argument that if hunter orange is made mandatory, hunters will automatically gun down anything that isn't orange. In fact Pataki used that line of reasoning when he vetoed the last attempt at a blaze orange law. Personally, I don't buy it, but then I'm not the guy sitting at the desk with the veto pen .... lol. Several times over the years, I have seen guys in full camo during opening day of gun season on a very heavily pressured parcel of state land. That just plain shouldn't happen, and I have to wonder what is going through the minds of these idiots. I can't think of a single justification for such lunacy. I realize the excellent safety record that NYS has even though we don't have a blaze orange law, and I believe that has more to do with the fact that we have an excellent hunter safety mandatory program that seems to convince almost all hunters to wear the blaze orange. And yet I still see these jerks out there in full camo. And sure enough each year brings another list of people that get shot, mistaken for deer. And if you read the details, quite often they are not in B/O. Also, the headlines often only pay attention to the fatalities, but I am sure that even the wounded victims probably do not think that their experience was exactly a pleasant thing. Missing limbs and organs are not exactly a victimless occurrance. So anytime I see a blaze orange law being offered, I am 100% behind it. There's no reason not to have it. Doc

I don't like snakes! I don't like anything that can't get up and walk. Doc

No. Maybe I should, but I don't and probably won't. Doc

Just to save us all a lot of time and bandwidth, let me point out that each and every one of these points has been addressed and either refuted or shown to be irrelevant already. We're starting into our summer re-runs again, and restating all of it will not make any of the points any more true or relevant from either side of the issue. This apparently has been turned into an issue that is trying to be settled by endurance. What is it, who ever repeats the same stuff last wins ....... lol. By the way ...... Thanks sits ...... your trolling worked once again. You snagged a bunch of them. Doc

Yes, on opening day of gun season I generally make a day of it. It's not my favorite thing to do, but on that day I do find it sometimes (but rarely) pays off. Otherwise a few hours after sunrise and a few hours before sunset pretty much maximizes the time spent. Doc

Now there would be an interesting dream to try to analyse ..... lol. Chocolate rabbits eh?

Well, I frankly don't buy into the "poacher weapon of choice" argument, but poking a 17" anything through a window is not exactly something that would be much of a trick. At least not out of any of the vehicles that I own or ever have owned. Also, while I am not much of an authority on methods of poaching, I doubt that there is any mystical requirement that cars or trucks have to be used in the commission of illegal taking of deer. Where the heck did that all come from? Most likely the only real requirements are stealth, silence, and a low level of character. The kind of weapon is almost incidental. Doc

Thanks ..... I'll try that. But the last official word that I heard was that it was buried on the desk of the Governor waiting for signature. I just hope it didn't get mixed in with those 6000+ vetoes that he signed....lol. Doc

So, how did you guys make out this year? I read that the state turkey harvest this year was down a bit. I didn't get out this year. Springtime I am all tied up with work around the property ...... bigtime. But I was curious how the rest of you made out. Doc

I read that somewhere too. In heavily pressured hunting areas where a lot of hunters take to the trees, it doesn't take the deer long to begin expecting danger from above. It doesn't matter to me though because you will never find me up there anyway. Me and heights don't get along too well anymore. Doc